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If God is all-knowing...

tomspug

tomspug

Absorbant
Storm said:
I didn't say that. CBT wouldn't work at all if that were the case. Clinical depression is a downward spiral, with the imbalance and the symptoms aggravating each other. It can sometimes be corrected by approaching from either angle, but a combination is most effective. I'm just saying that you were conflating the symptoms with the disease itself. Just as a runny nose is not the cause of the flu, regret, etc. are not the causes of depression.
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Thanks for clarifying! And I admit the error of my previous statement...
 
tomspug

tomspug

Absorbant
lunamoth said:
Maybe I misunderstand you, but you seem to say there is no free will.
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As usual, the misconception with views like mine is that omniscience and free will are incompatible. God doesn't make the choices for us, but he knows the choices we will make. In that respect, the future is not written, but it is known, if that makes sense.
 
lunamoth

lunamoth

Will to love
tomspug said:
As usual, the misconception with views like mine is that omniscience and free will are incompatible. God doesn't make the choices for us, but he knows the choices we will make. In that respect, the future is not written, but it is known, if that makes sense.
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Well, I'm not sure how to logically resolve your view. I believe that 'in the fullness of time,' God's will will prevail, and that will is that "all shall be well." However, I think this is because of God's intervention and agency in the world, not because the future is known. God knows all probablities, that is part of omniscience in the eternal present, but if God knows the one path that will be taken out of the infinite possible paths, I think free will is gone.
 
Dirty Penguin

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
tomspug said:
Then, even if he didn't involve himself once after the creation of the universe, he would still have the foresight and knowledge to determine exactly what would occur throughout the course of history. So what difference does it make to be a deist or a theist unless you believe that God is bound by time... but if God is bound by time, then who created God?
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ding...ding...ding...ding...ding...!!!

If he exist outside of space and time and he is the creator of space and time then that means everything submits to his will. There's no need for redemptiom and salvation if he created everything this way.
 
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Willamena

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
tomspug said:
I've never understood the notion that foreknowledge eliminates free will. I know my wife so well, for example, that I often know her response to something before she has the chance. I know how she will feel about certain news. I KNOW A LOT about her, does that in any way take away from her will?
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"Knowledge" is what is stored in memory or media.
 
tomspug

tomspug

Absorbant
Dirty Penguin said:
ding...ding...ding...ding...ding...!!!

If he exist outside of space and time and he is the creator of space and time then that means everything submits to his will. There's no need for redemptiom and salvation if he created everything this way.
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Being able to predict something correctly does not mean that you yourself accomplished the act.

Say, as another example, that you know sports so well, you have a 98% prediction accuracy of winners/losers for games. Well, stretch your imagination to someone who knows sports SO well (and the individual players) that they have 99.99% accuracy (a little freaky).

This is what I'm talking about... "foreknowledge", not knowledge of something that has already happened. God didn't force us to sin, nor does he force us to do good, but he is so familiar with his creation that he can be deemed "omniscient".
 
Dirty Penguin

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
tomspug said:
Being able to predict something correctly does not mean that you yourself accomplished the act.

. "foreknowledge", not knowledge of something that has already happened. God didn't force us to sin, nor does he force us to do good, but he is so familiar with his creation that he can be deemed "omniscient".
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For this "God" to have created space and time and "expect" its creation to do something...let's say...follow ANY commandment is futile on his part if he is to punish or reward those for either following or not following them.

Why would this omniscient do this unless he's not omniscient? For him to be omniscient, existing outside of space and time which he created and knew and knows the outcome of all that he creates, but expects a different outcome would make him "insane"......

God says...do as I say or I will punish you...but I don't do as he says...but he knew I wouldn't do as he said to do...because that is how he created it...what is the point? Surely he would not punish me for submitting to his will....?

How could you sin? regardless of what you do you are submitting to his will. If God controls the order of all things how can you go against him?
 
Buttercup

Buttercup

Veteran Member
lunamoth said:
Well, I'm not sure how to logically resolve your view. I believe that 'in the fullness of time,' God's will will prevail, and that will is that "all shall be well." However, I think this is because of God's intervention and agency in the world, not because the future is known. God knows all probablities, that is part of omniscience in the eternal present, but if God knows the one path that will be taken out of the infinite possible paths, I think free will is gone.
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Ooops, forgot about this thread. :)

How do you explain these verses if God does not know the paths that will be taken by humans?

[SIZE=+1]" but at that time your people shall be delivered, every one whose name shall be found written in THE BOOK." Daniel 12:1 "[/SIZE]


"And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done. And if any one's name was not found written in the BOOK OF LIFE he was thrown into the lake of fire" Revelation 20:12,15
 
lunamoth

lunamoth

Will to love
Buttercup said:
Ooops, forgot about this thread. :)

How do you explain these verses if God does not know the paths that will be taken by humans?

[SIZE=+1]" but at that time your people shall be delivered, every one whose name shall be found written in THE BOOK." Daniel 12:1 "[/SIZE]


"And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done. And if any one's name was not found written in the BOOK OF LIFE he was thrown into the lake of fire"Revelation 20:12,15
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The book is written as we go.
 
YmirGF

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
tomspug said:
Then, even if he didn't involve himself once after the creation of the universe, he would still have the foresight and knowledge to determine exactly what would occur throughout the course of history. So what difference does it make to be a deist or a theist unless you believe that God is bound by time... but if God is bound by time, then who created God?
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I don't believe for a second that "god" IS "all-knowing". My stance is that that is precisely why "it" created us so, that we might understand the nuts and bolts of probablilities that no being can forsee without going through them - hence diversity.
 
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