If God is all-knowing...

[tomspug]

The absence of good is nothing at all.

Evil is the OPPOSITE of good.

So if you stand by and do nothing while evil is being done in front of you, would you call that nothing at all?

 

[mr.guy]

The "drawing" I was referring to was the rudimentary stick figure skills of a certain person named Adam.

Hey, no need to get all biblical, eh?

Granted, one could easily see where his inspiration came from, considering what that woman put him through.

 

[mr.guy]

If evil is the absence of good, then it makes no sense to say that God can be both all good and all evil (or responsible for all good and all evil).

???

Right.

First things first.

"If evil is the absence of good..."

BIG "if".

"If" we can determine when and where evil is absent, i would then propose that it's quantifiable. Could you tell me, how much does a square meter of "good" weigh?


"...then it makes no sense to say that God can be both all good and all evil (or responsible for all good and all evil)."

Why is that, exactly?

Is evil a repellant of good? How and why?

Under what circumstances does one naturally dominate and expel the other?

I'll assume you'll posit that god is "all good", if you'll forgive me for anticipating this point on your behalf. Presumably, pockets of evil (or, if you prefer, vacuums of good) are completely controlled by god's movements.

Is god's presence something plottable, or attractive?

What mechanism banishes god from certain localities?

Would it be more acurate to describe his position with an uncertainty principle?

Either he is responsible for one completely, the other completely, or neither...

There is no reason whatsoever to presume that; never mind that, if we view god as moral agent, the option of neither is also inclusive as being responsible for both. If reality is his/her jurisdiction, he/she's gotta account for what goes down on his/her beat.

Similarly, if god is only in control of either good or evil, what prompts and directs his distribution?

Is good a limited resource?

How much good can god output?


To sum up, does it make any sense for you to continue to characterize floppy abstractions as real things?

 

[lunamoth]

I think I agree yet I'm not sure it's the answer I'm digging for. I'd like to ask more questions but don't want to derail the thread regarding God being all knowing. Thanks for your answers.

I don't 'know' that the concepts I presented are 'right,' in fact I am sure they fall far short of the truth. But they are consistent with the God I know in Christianity.

Every day I learn more about how much I don't know.

I think it is like looking at five or six pieces of a 1000-piece jigsaw puzzle and trying to guess what the whole picture looks like.

 

[UnTheist]

So if you stand by and do nothing while evil is being done in front of you, would you call that nothing at all?

Yes .

 

[Buttercup]

Hey, no need to get all biblical, eh?

Granted, one could easily see where his inspiration came from, considering what that woman put him through.

I meant YOU, silly. Now you're going to have to go back and reread our previous posts to get the reference. Then, we can continue our discussion I hope.

 

[Buttercup]

I don't 'know' that the concepts I presented are 'right,' in fact I am sure they fall far short of the truth. But they are consistent with the God I know in Christianity.

It's an interesting lens to view God through and one that was definitely not taught or even implied during the years I was a practicing Christian. We were always told that God's powers were infinite, and he was especially capable of knowing the future.

This imminent God scenario still allows free choice which is comforting. What isn't comforting is that he doesn't intervene in a direct manner in our lives.

Every day I learn more about how much I don't know.

I think it is like looking at five or six pieces of a 1000-piece jigsaw puzzle and trying to guess what the whole picture looks like.

I understand that view and used to feel the same. I wish I was still as interested in finding God as you are but unfortunately, I'm not. But, as always, I highly respect your view of Christianity.

 

[lunamoth]

It's an interesting lens to view God through and one that was definitely not taught or even implied during the years I was a practicing Christian. We were always told that God's powers were infinite, and he was especially capable of knowing the future.

Well, I think God certainly knows what he plans to do.

This imminent God scenario still allows free choice which is comforting. What isn't comforting is that he doesn't intervene in a direct manner in our lives.

I think he is 'intervening' all the time. But not coercing or forcing.

I understand that view and used to feel the same. I wish I was still as interested in finding God as you are but unfortunately, I'm not. But, as always, I highly respect your view of Christianity.

Well, if I had the views of God that you seem to have held I would not like that God either.

Thank you for the conversation.

 

[Buttercup]

Well, I think God certainly knows what he plans to do.

I'm sure he does...sounds like we're the tricky buggers that keep surprising him.

I think he is 'intervening' all the time. But not coercing or forcing.

I meant that he could stop tragedy while it's happening. Being an imminent and omnipotent God he can certainly see tragedy unfold. Even if he couldn't predict that man would kill or rape little girls, he could put a stop to it while it was happening if he wanted. Also, after seeing what a mess he created it was in his power to stop the world and start over but he didn't. Is there a way you reconcile that aspect in your mind?

 

[lunamoth]

I meant that he could stop tragedy while it's happening. Being an imminent and omnipotent God he can certainly see tragedy unfold. Even if he couldn't predict that man would kill or rape little girls, he could put a stop to it while it was happening if he wanted. Also, after seeing what a mess he created it was in his power to stop the world and start over but he didn't. Is there a way you reconcile that aspect in your mind?

That of course is the beginning of a long conversation but the short answer, which I have a feeling won't satisfy you, is free will. If God is going to start taking away our choices, even the choice to be horrible to one another, then we don't have free will.

We don't have the full picture on this.

BTW, I'm off to Brownies. I will check the thread later when I get home.

 

[Buttercup]

That of course is the beginning of a long conversation but the short answer, which I have a feeling won't satisfy you, is free will. If God is going to start taking away our choices, even the choice to be horrible to one another, then we don't have free will.

We don't have the full picture on this.

Yeah, I know. I've had this conversation many a time over the last couple of years...probably even with you.

But, if you're going to allow the idea that God sorta, kinda knew what was going to happen with Jesus and the cross, don't you have to allow the notion that he "sort of" knew he designed a man capable of murder?

 

[lunamoth]

But, if you're going to allow the idea that God sorta, kinda knew what was going to happen with Jesus and the cross, don't you have to allow the notion that he "sort of" knew he designed a man capable of murder?

Well, I don't think God willed or pre-ordained in any way that Jesus would die on the cross. And God did not choose for humans to kill each other. If you have free will, then you can choose to kill and hurt each other in ways great and small.

Free will comes with risk, but without free will we can't truely love. And if God loves us He can't force us to do anything, not to love him, and not to be good to each other. Love is the one thing that loses its power and ceases to be what it is if it is forced.

When I chose to have children I knew that there were risks involved. They might be sick and have problems or even themselves turn out to be selfish and hurtful to other people. They surely one day will die. They surely will suffer along the way to one degree or another. I know these things, yet I choose to have children.

If I made every choice for them their whole lives I would be taking responsibility for their lives...they would not be responsible. They would also not be complete individuals, but more like pets. And, they also probably would hate me for that. I can't force them to love me.

 

[ayani]

i wouldn't say that God is bound by time, but that He has choosen to interact with humans throughout history, and still interacts with us day to day. we may or may not be aware of His hand in world and personal events, but it's there.

Biblically, God is pre-existant, and therefor trans-historical. yet He is also present in human history, and makes His will known at certain points therein.

Then, even if he didn't involve himself once after the creation of the universe, he would still have the foresight and knowledge to determine exactly what would occur throughout the course of history. So what difference does it make to be a deist or a theist unless you believe that God is bound by time... but if God is bound by time, then who created God?

 

[Buttercup]

Well, I don't think God willed or pre-ordained in any way that Jesus would die on the cross. And God did not choose for humans to kill each other. If you have free will, then you can choose to kill and hurt each other in ways great and small.

I understand the whole free will concept and am hoping we can put that aside for a bit. What I'm trying to figure out is if you think this imminent God knew in any way that he created a human capable of murder?

 

[lunamoth]

I understand the whole free will concept and am hoping we can put that aside for a bit. What I'm trying to figure out is if you think this imminent God knew in any way that he created a human capable of murder?

Free will is the answer to that question; it can't be put aside. Yes, God knew that humans could choose evil, could choose good, could choose love, could choose hate.

 

[Buttercup]

Free will is the answer to that question; it can't be put aside. Yes, God knew that humans could choose evil, could choose good, could choose love, could choose hate.

But, see, in my mind that makes this type of God an accessory to murder. Remember Frankenstein? Wasn't his creator just as responsible for murder because Frankenstein killed his brother? Isn't it the same with God?

 

[lunamoth]

But, see, in my mind that makes this type of God an accessory to murder. Remember Frankenstein? Wasn't his creator just as responsible for murder because Frankenstein killed his brother? Isn't it the same with God?

Well, I don't remember about Frankenstein killing his brother (never read the book), but you are asking if the creator is responsible for the actions of the creation? If the creation has free will it is responsible for its own actions, just like our children are responsble for their own actions even though they did not ask to be born. If God made us robots or puppets with no free will then we would not be responsible, God would.

I don't believe in total depravity, is that what you mean?

 

[logician]

"Biblically, God is pre-existant, and therefor trans-historical. yet He is also present in human history, and makes His will known at certain points therein."

I have no idea what this sentence means.

 

[Buttercup]

Well, I don't remember about Frankenstein killing his brother (never read the book), but you are asking if the creator is responsible for the actions of the creation? If the creation has free will it is responsible for its own actions, just like our children are responsble for their own actions even though they did not ask to be born. If God made us robots or puppets with no free will then we would not be responsible, God would.

I don't believe in total depravity, is that what you mean?

I'm not familiar with the term, "total depravity", sorry.

If a man or woman today was able to create completely from scratch a thinking, rational being and 18 years from now that being killed a human, you don't see any responsibility for the crime directed toward it's creator?

 

[lunamoth]

I'm not familiar with the term, "total depravity", sorry.

If a man or woman today was able to create completely from scratch a thinking, rational being and 18 years from now that being killed a human, you don't see any responsibility for the crime directed toward it's creator?

Only if the creature had no choice. If your son comits murder are you responsible? You made him from scratch, he has free will.