If I am not a sinner, do I need a savior?

[Revoltingest]

From Romans 6.66:
Only the atheist may be without sin, for he has no glory from which to fall short.

Bet you thought I didn't know my Bible verses, eh?

 

[Kathryn]

Har. Har.

 

[Revoltingest]

Ouch! Except that I'm the guy to your left....the nerdy guy in the Hawaiian shirt.

 

[Kathryn]

Hey, you're with the guy in the suit, and you know what they say - the companion of fools will be destroyed.

Meanwhile, I look terrible as a blonde. Really need to change my look.

 

[Alceste]

From Romans 6.66:
Only the atheist may be without sin, for he has no glory from which to fall short.

Bet you thought I didn't know my Bible verses, eh?

Lol. Maybe the Bible IS true, after all! What does it say on the subject of Valentines Day chocolate sales?

 

[Thief]

... um, think he's a messiah or think he needs one?

The following may sound odd, given my religion label...

If one does not think they need a messiah, then they may well not need one. I do not believe in 'Original Sin' so if you have no sin weighing on your conscience, you may just be a good person.

If one has need of one, the most important messiah is... oneself. Each of us has the power to be one's own saviour, through repentance and one's own direct appeal to G-d. The gates of repentance are always open.

You need no intermediary, but if you feel you do then Providence will give one. Maybe in a form that is commonplace, like a Priest, maybe in another form.

This is correct....
But would you expound on the application?

After all...standing in God's presence...and no one will raise objection?

And the 'person' of intervention would be able?...more so than you?

 

[Songbird]

... um, think he's a messiah or think he needs one?

Guys who fall for dysfunctional women hoping to fix them. I was joking, but there's something sweet about a man who wants to be a knight in shining armor. Well, it's sweet when anyone wants to be, but my original comment was directed toward men.

The following may sound odd, given my religion label...

If one does not think they need a messiah, then they may well not need one. I do not believe in 'Original Sin' so if you have no sin weighing on your conscience, you may just be a good person.

If one has need of one, the most important messiah is... oneself. Each of us has the power to be one's own saviour, through repentance and one's own direct appeal to G-d. The gates of repentance are always open.

You need no intermediary, but if you feel you do then Providence will give one. Maybe in a form that is commonplace, like a Priest, maybe in another form.

That doesn't sound odd at all. I really like that answer. To your last point - and someone else said something similar here - I thought of human saviors too. And in that sense, most of us have many saviors throughout our lives and are saviors to others too.

 

[Kathryn]

Lol. Maybe the Bible IS true, after all! What does it say on the subject of Valentines Day chocolate sales?

And I will say to my soul, Soul, you have ample goods laid up for many years; relax, eat, drink, be merry.’ Luke 12:19

Give, and it will be given to you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For with the measure you use it will be measured back to you.” Luke 6:38

 

[Alceste]

And I will say to my soul, Soul, you have ample goods laid up for many years; relax, eat, drink, be merry.’ Luke 12:19

Give, and it will be given to you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For with the measure you use it will be measured back to you.” Luke 6:38

Excellent. I think I need to go to the shop - there is some half-price Lindt with my name on it.

 

[Katzpur]

Well I think it's a great answer. Thoughtful, well-reasoned, coherent, and- best of all - yours.

Awww! I'm touched!

To take it a step further, then, suppose I know in my heart I am not a sinner (I do my best, anyway, and my conscience is clear) and I don't want to live forever in another realm? Truly, this world amazes me and I feel pretty satisfied. I don't actually feel like I need eternal life, as I already feel unfathomably fortunate to be alive at all. I feel exactly the same way about my post-death non-existence as we all do about our pre-birth non-existence.

So, as a non-sinner with no desire for eternal life, does Christ have anything to save me from?

Well, from the LDS standpoint (which is all I can really speak from), you actually chose to be a part of a plan that included eternal life. This happened in yet another realm, one which you can't now recall. (So you see, we don't all feel the same about a "pre-birth non-existence.") I'm still a bit foggy as to what you mean when you say you're a "non-sinner," though. But I would say -- hypothetically speaking, of course -- that if you truly had never sinned in any way, there would be nothing for Christ to save you from.

I guess I don't really understand how you could "feel unfathomably fortunate to be alive at all," and yet be okay if you were to simply cease to exist at some point and that you'd never again see those you love. I personally believe that you will never cease to exist and that when you die, your spirit simply leaves your body for a period of time but continues to exist as "you" -- a cognizant entity that is eternal. Since I also believe that God is infinitely loving, I suppose that if you were to find yourself still in existence after death, you may be able to bargain with Him for oblivion. I kind of hope you change your mind, though, since I'd like to meet you at some point. :yes:

 

[tomato1236]

I asked this on another thread and it seems to have stumped the "theologian". I wondered if any other Christian would like to have a go.

So, do I? I don't want to hear any tedious, irrelevant Kirk Cameronisms here ("have you ever been a speeder, have you ever littered, have you ever burned ants with a magnifying glass, have you ever masturbated", etc). If you think it is impossible for me to be free from sin, just treat the question as a hypothetical. Imagine a person who has never done any of the things you think are "sins" and tell me if they need saving. Yes or no, and why.

No. Christ came to heal the sinner, not those who are whole. Where there's no sin there can be no forgiveness. If no forgiveness is needed, no savior is needed. I don't see where the big question mark is here.

 

[Alceste]

Awww! I'm touched!

Well, from the LDS standpoint (which is all I can really speak from), you actually chose to be a part of a plan that included eternal life. This happened in yet another realm, one which you can't now recall. (So you see, we don't all feel the same about a "pre-birth non-existence.") I'm still a bit foggy as to what you mean when you say you're a "non-sinner," though. But I would say -- hypothetically speaking, of course -- that if you truly had never sinned in any way, there would be nothing for Christ to save you from.

Well, I suppose I mean I have a very robust ethical framework that I do my utmost to act in accordance with, and my conscience is clear. If I flub up somehow and my conscience is burdened, I immediately take steps to rectify any damage done. That's the rational part of it. The irrational part is that I also know in my heart that I am not a sinner, or any other demeaning pejorative, nor is anyone else. We are (almost) all doing all that we can to be the best people we can be, given our respective world views and limitations.

Since, from my perspective, the conscience of the individual is the ultimate authority, generalizations such as "Everybody is a sinner" don't make any sense to me. My conscience tells me otherwise, and how would a hypothetical deity speak to anyone but through their own conscience? Also, such declarations raise a red flag for me, as they must inevitably come from people whose conscience is not clear. (How else would they be unable to imagine a clear conscience?)

I guess I don't really understand how you could "feel unfathomably fortunate to be alive at all," and yet be okay if you were to simply cease to exist at some point and that you'd never again see those you love. I personally believe that you will never cease to exist and that when you die, your spirit simply leaves your body for a period of time but continues to exist as "you" -- a cognizant entity that is eternal. Since I also believe that God is infinitely loving, I suppose that if you were to find yourself still in existence after death, you may be able to bargain with Him for oblivion. I kind of hope you change your mind, though, since I'd like to meet you at some point. :yes:

Well, look at it this way, would you rather have a bowl of ice cream or all the ice cream in the entire universe?

 

[Katzpur]

Well, I suppose I mean I have a very robust ethical framework that I do my utmost to act in accordance with, and my conscience is clear. If I flub up somehow and my conscience is burdened, I immediately take steps to rectify any damage done. That's the rational part of it. The irrational part is that I also know in my heart that I am not a sinner, or any other demeaning pejorative, nor is anyone else. We are (almost) all doing all that we can to be the best people we can be, given our respective world views and limitations.

I absolutely love how you put that, and I really actually see things in much the same way.

Since, from my perspective, the conscience of the individual is the ultimate authority, generalizations such as "Everybody is a sinner" don't make any sense to me. My conscience tells me otherwise, and how would a hypothetical deity speak to anyone but through their own conscience? Also, such declarations raise a red flag for me, as they must inevitably come from people whose conscience is not clear. (How else would they be unable to imagine a clear conscience?)

I can more or less go along with that. Mormons don't even think that Adam and Eve "sinned" when they ate the forbidden fruit since it was the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and they didn't know the difference between good and evil until after they ate from it. To me, sin is the voluntary and willful transgression of a religious law or moral principle. You can't sin unless you are either subject to religious laws or have moral principles. Many people don't have religious laws (they'd see that as an advantage; I don't), but most of us have moral principles, and we violate them from time to time. The average person probably isn't evil or depraved, but whenever we do something we know in our hearts to be wrong, we're sinning (IMO), whether it's our religious beliefs or our conscience that reminds us. So I can't really buy into the idea that there are some people who have never sinned.

Well, look at it this way, would you rather have a bowl of ice cream or all the ice cream in the entire universe?

Wouldn't the bowl of ice cream be a life that ends at death and all of the ice cream in the entire universe be one that goes on eternally?

 

[Alceste]

I absolutely love how you put that, and I really actually see things in much the same way.

I can more or less go along with that. Mormons don't even think that Adam and Eve "sinned" when they ate the forbidden fruit since it was the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and they didn't know the difference between good and evil until after they ate from it. To me, sin is the voluntary and willful transgression of a religious law or moral principle. You can't sin unless you are either subject to religious laws or have moral principles. Many people don't have religious laws (they'd see that as an advantage; I don't), but most of us have moral principles, and we violate them from time to time. The average person probably isn't evil or depraved, but whenever we do something we know in our hearts to be wrong, we're sinning (IMO), whether it's our religious beliefs or our conscience that reminds us. So I can't really buy into the idea that there are some people who have never sinned.

That's just it. I don't do anything I know in my heart to be wrong, and I don't see why anybody would. OTOH, my framework of ethics has been built around the general idea that people are generally good, or want to be. So it's lacking in prohibitions against behavior that almost everybody indulges in. That certainly makes it easy to follow.

Wouldn't the bowl of ice cream be a life that ends at death and all of the ice cream in the entire universe be one that goes on eternally?

Exactly. A bowl of ice cream is a glorious thing - having to eat all the ice cream in the universe would be a terrible chore. The novelty would soon wear off.

 

[Katzpur]

Exactly. A bowl of ice cream is a glorious thing - having to eat all the ice cream in the universe would be a terrible chore. The novelty would soon wear off.

LOL! Okay.

 

[Songbird]

I have no idea what y'all are discussing, but I sure could go for some ice cream.

 

[Hawkins]

I asked this on another thread and it seems to have stumped the "theologian". I wondered if any other Christian would like to have a go.

So, do I? I don't want to hear any tedious, irrelevant Kirk Cameronisms here ("have you ever been a speeder, have you ever littered, have you ever burned ants with a magnifying glass, have you ever masturbated", etc). If you think it is impossible for me to be free from sin, just treat the question as a hypothetical. Imagine a person who has never done any of the things you think are "sins" and tell me if they need saving. Yes or no, and why.

I'll be surprised if you can ever "stumped' someone as you can't be even logical in a debate (you don't have the self-awareness though).

A sinner is the one who broke God's Law.

 

[Alceste]

I'll be surprised if you can ever "stumped' someone as you can't be even logical in a debate (you don't have the self-awareness though).

A sinner is the one who broke God's Law.

Lol. Wow. Very persuasive. I'll stump you if you like.

 

[Hawkins]

Lol. Wow. Very persuasive. I'll stump you if you like.

With what? Your own self-deception? Moreover, when you make a claim to accuss the Bible of saying something, it is you who should present the exact verses, not others. It is called logic in a debate. You are incapable of even doing this correctly.

When you say that "I am not a sinner", it doesn't make much sense (perhaps it only makes sense to you with your self-deception), as such a claim requires a judgment from God to be sure about.

 

[blackout]

I for one, am not a 'sinner'.

Whatever it is that only sinners specifically need?,
I am not in need of.