If Israel Stopped Occupying The West Bank Would There Be Peace Between The Jews And Arabs?

[Debater Slayer]

Repeating the same message over and over again, day after day after day indoctrinates the speaker to that message. Again, this is true for ALL HUMANS.

The only message one can reliably say that all Muslims agree on is that the Qur'an is God's word and Muhammad is his messenger. All other parts of the religion have been subject to interpretation for over a millennium, hence the existence of various sects (that sometimes severely clash with one another).

Fair enough "how they think" was poorly put on my part. But I think "what they think" is on the mark.

As for different interpretations, of course that's true up to a point. But the Quran is extremely repetitive on some main themes and those main themes will make into the minds of ANYONE who hears them over and over again. Over the years I've participated in and read countless debates on interpreting the Quran. What theologians and scholars almost always whiff on is that the parsimonious messages are the ones that get thru to the listener. so you can go on and on about your scholarly interpretation of the text, and that is a legitimate thing to study. But it is separate from what happens in the brains and minds of Muslims who hear the words over and over again throughout their lives.

I still don't see anything in the above that is unique to Muslims or that they're more susceptible to than any other religious or ideological group that includes hundreds of millions or billions of people. There are millions of Muslims who live in the same country and hear the same messages but still end up acting, believing, and speaking differently, Lebanon being one example with its large diversity of Islamic sects among its Muslim population. Even among members of the same sects or other religious and ideological groupings, there's usually a lot of variation in how individuals act, and that's something that applies to all other religions and also to irreligious worldviews.

 

[icehorse]

Especially given that some folks actually manage to be both. (No wonder I'm so confused.)

Any person who reads or listens to the Quran being read, over and over again, will experience deep cognitive dissonance if they also value secularism.

You might argue that it's not the case, and it could be that your conscious mind has done some partial job of compartmentalizing, but the dissonance in your subconscious is unavoidable.

Do you doubt the power of indoctrination or propaganda?

 

[icehorse]

The only message one can reliably say that all Muslims agree on is that the Qur'an is God's word and Muhammad is his messenger. All other parts of the religion have been subject to interpretation for over a millennium, hence the existence of various sects (that sometimes severely clash with one another).



I still don't see anything in the above that is unique to Muslims or that they're more susceptible to than any other religious or ideological group that includes hundreds of millions or billions of people. There are millions of Muslims who live in the same country and hear the same messages but still end up acting, believing, and speaking differently, Lebanon being one example with its large diversity of Islamic sects among its Muslim population. Even among members of the same sects or other religious and ideological groupings, there's usually a lot of variation in how individuals act, and that's something that applies to all other religions and also to irreligious worldviews.

I've already granted you that diversity of beliefs exist. We have to look no further than Shia vs. Sunni.

But my point is that there are a few fundamental beliefs that are common, as you've already agreed to. As for the scholarly interpretation, I just spoke to that, what part of that did you disagree with?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Any person who reads or listens to the Quran being read, over and over again, will experience deep cognitive dissonance if they also value secularism.

I have a pretty good one just a few feet away.

 

[Jimmy]

There are some commonalities amongst humans and amongst Muslims. There are things we CAN generalize on. We can generalize on the mechanics of indoctrination and propaganda. We can generalize on the foundational claims of Islam.

Let me ask you, what percentage of Muslims think the Quran is the word of god? What percentage think Muhammad was god's messenger?

Just because all of them think the Quran is the word of God doesn’t mean they want to force it down other people’s throats. Same with Christians. Most Christians will say if you don’t have Jesus, then you’re not saved, but that doesn’t mean they want to force Christianity down your throat.

 

[icehorse]

Just because all of them think the Quran is the word of God doesn’t mean they want to force it down other people’s throats. Same with Christians. Most Christians will say if you don’t have Jesus, then you’re not saved, but that doesn’t mean they want to force Christianity down your throat.

The Quran has different instructions than the Bible.

Again, hundreds of millions of Muslims want to spread Sharia.

 

[icehorse]

I have a pretty good one just a few feet away.

Are you super human?

 

[Jimmy]

The Quran has different instructions than the Bible.

Again, hundreds of millions of Muslims want to spread Sharia.

I think you’re confusing muslims who say if somebody decides to become a Muslim then that’s fine. Same as Christians they’ll say if somebody becomes a Christian that’s fine. It doesn’t mean that they force it down peoples throat. They’re not opposed to their religion growing in numbers in a natural way. I choose to believe that there’s more good people in the world than bad. You see good people don’t want to spread their religion by force. You’re entitled to believe what you want of course.

I don’t believe 100s of millions of Muslims want to spread their religion through force. I fact I know it.

 

[MayPeaceBeUpOnYou]

The Quran has different instructions than the Bible.

Again, hundreds of millions of Muslims want to spread Sharia.

But just out of curiosity since you are eager to tell people about your opinion about Muslims wanting to force shariah.

Are you consistent when the west wanna spread their ideology to the whole world? I am talking about liberal and secular ideas.
Do you also fight when the west is trying to force this to other civilizations that have other opinions on this matter ?

 

[Jimmy]

But just out of curiosity since you are eager to tell people about your opinion about Muslims wanting to force shariah.

Are you consistent when the west wanna spread their ideology to the whole world? I am talking about liberal and secular ideas.
Do you also fight when the west is trying to force this to other civilizations that have other opinions on this matter ?

Most Christian’s don’t wish to spread their religion through force. The same with Muslims. The same with Hindus. The same with Buddhists. The majority of the people in the world are good.

 

[icehorse]

But just out of curiosity since you are eager to tell people about your opinion about Muslims wanting to force shariah.

Are you consistent when the west wanna spread their ideology to the whole world? I am talking about liberal and secular ideas.
Do you also fight when the west is trying to force this to other civilizations that have other opinions on this matter ?

I'm not eager at all. But I think it's a reality we must face.

As for forcing secularism, well that for sure has happened, but I think what's important to see these days is that people are fleeing theocracies to go to secular states, and not the other way around.

 

[MayPeaceBeUpOnYou]

As for forcing secularism, well that for sure has happened, but I think what's important to see these days is that people are fleeing theocracies to go to secular states, and not the other way around

That’s sounds to me you support the west telling countries how they should live their lives.

So tell me what is worse.

Me living in the Netherlands with the idea that shariah is the best way of life but at the same time abiding by the law

Or

The US telling a other country, 5000 miles away, what the best way is how they should live their way or else they are in trouble

I just think your are failing to understand how we Muslims in the west view the shariah. And to claim we want shariah in a society with a majority non moslims is ridiculous for so many reasons. I think the reason for not wanting it because if you put shariah in place a lot of people would receive the death penalty. And that is a unimaginable thought

 

[Godobeyer]

I think you help me make my point

You are welcome, Inshalah we always on agreement, especially in human values.

 

[icehorse]

That’s sounds to me you support the west telling countries how they should live their lives.

Not at all. If you want Sharia, go to a Muslim theocracy.

Me living in the Netherlands with the idea that shariah is the best way of life but at the same time abiding by the law

I think you should respect the culture of the country that's hosting you and let Sharia go. Stop desiring it.

The US telling a other country, 5000 miles away, what the best way is how they should live their way or else they are in trouble

When did I say anything like that?

 

[Debater Slayer]

I've already granted you that diversity of beliefs exist. We have to look no further than Shia vs. Sunni.

But my point is that there are a few fundamental beliefs that are common, as you've already agreed to. As for the scholarly interpretation, I just spoke to that, what part of that did you disagree with?

What I disagree with is the idea that repeatedly hearing the Qur'an somehow necessarily constitutes "indoctrination" or "propaganda," as well as the idea that "Islamism" is as common as you claim it is, especially among Muslim communities in non-Muslim countries. Most religious people read or listen to their respective religion's texts, and Muslims are no different in that regard. Trying to make Muslims sound different or deserving of more suspicion than the rest seems to me one of the central ways in which they have been demonized and dehumanized for decades, especially after 9/11. I'm no more worried about an averagr Muslim's reading their Qur'an than an average Christian's reading the Bible or an average Hindu's reading the Bhagavad Gita.

 

[icehorse]

What I disagree with is the idea that repeatedly hearing the Qur'an somehow necessarily constitutes "indoctrination" or "propaganda," as well as the idea that "Islamism" is as common as you claim it is, especially among Muslim communities in non-Muslim countries. Most religious people read or listen to their respective religion's texts, and Muslims are no different in that regard. Trying to make Muslims sound different or deserving of more suspicion than the rest seems to me one of the central ways in which they have been demonized and dehumanized for decades, especially after 9/11. I'm no more worried about an averagr Muslim's reading their Qur'an than an average Christian's reading the Bible or an average Hindu's reading the Bhagavad Gita.

I'm almost as worried about the Bible. I'm not very worried about the Bhagavad Gita, but I haven't studied it very much so that opinion of mine is very weak.

But I'm coming from a cognitive science perspective, and Islam and the Quran are somewhat unique from that perspective. The Quran is (sadly and unfortunately), a sort of master class in how to construct written material to be used for indoctrination and propaganda. For one thing, it has very few messages or ideas compared to the Bible. Next, it's highly repetitive. As an example, there are over 500 separate criticisms of non-Muslims in the Quran. And the last thing (in this post), is that the 5-times-a-day prayer is also unique and is a very strong tool for indoctrination.

In other words, the devil is in these details.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I'm almost as worried about the Bible. I'm not very worried about the Bhagavad Gita, but I haven't studied it very much so that opinion of mine is very weak.

But I'm coming from a cognitive science perspective, and Islam and the Quran are somewhat unique from that perspective.

I don't believe that the claims you have made about Islam and Muslims have much evidence to back them up, much less from "cognitive science." I find these to be ad hoc attempts to justify preconceptions about Muslims and their beliefs.

The Quran is (sadly and unfortunately), a sort of master class in how to construct written material to be used for indoctrination and propaganda. For one thing, it has very few messages or ideas compared to the Bible. Next, it's highly repetitive. As an example, there are over 500 separate criticisms of non-Muslims in the Quran. And the last thing (in this post), is that the 5-times-a-day prayer is also unique and is a very strong tool for indoctrination.

There are criticisms of or hostility toward outsiders, whether rhetorically or practically, in many religions and ideologies, including the hardline brand of religious Zionism espoused by Netanyahu, Smotrich, and Ben-Gvir—which is also fueling support from those three for illegal settlements in the West Bank. Many other Zionists have openly disagreed with those hardline beliefs, too.

Jordan summons Israeli envoy over ‘racist’ Smotrich speech, ‘Greater Israel’ map

Israel says it respects Amman's territorial integrity after Smotrich address in which he called Palestinians an 'invention' while standing behind map of Israel that includes Jordan

www.timesofisrael.com

Netanyahu brandishes map of Israel that includes West Bank and Gaza at UN speech

* * *

www.timesofisrael.com

Again, I see nothing unique about Islamic scripture in this regard, and it's a fact that the vast majority of Muslims are not any less peaceful than the average person among any other major religious group.

In other words, the devil is in these details.

According to your assessment, which remains an opinion unless backed up by reliable evidence.

 

[icehorse]

I don't believe that the claims you have made about Islam and Muslims have much evidence to back them up, much less from "cognitive science." I find these to be ad hoc attempts to justify preconceptions about Muslims and their beliefs.

Good for you. And what is your background in cog. sci?

Again, I see nothing unique about Islamic scripture in this regard.

I agree that Netanyahu is a propagandist. But he's a blip on the radar. He'll be gone soon enough, whereas the Quran is ancient.

According to your assessment, which remains an opinion unless backed up by reliable evidence.

It's not my job to educate you in the basics of propaganda. And anyone can find the 500+ criticisms of non-Muslims, so that's not my opinion, those 500+ instances are in the book, correct?

So basically your argument appears to be: "I don't know anything about cognitive science, and I won't respond to your direct claims about the Quran, but I think your wrong"? I don't find that too compelling, would you?

 

[Debater Slayer]

Good for you. And what is your background in cog. sci?

That's an irrelevant question, since it has no bearing whatsoever on whether evidence exists for your claims. I have no background in cognitive science, and unless you're professionally qualified in that field or are a peer-reviewed researcher in it, you don't have an authoritative background in it either.

I agree that Netanyahu is a propagandist. But he's a blip on the radar. He'll be gone soon enough, whereas the Quran is ancient.

That "blip on the radar" has overseen the killing of over 41,000 Gazans and the expansion of illegal settlements. He's quite relevant to the topic of this thread.

It's not my job to educate you in the basics of propaganda.

You seem to be assuming that you would be "educating" me. If what you have said in this thread so far is indicative of your views on the subject, I don't think you would be even remotely doing any education; you would merely be sharing extremely biased opinions and overgeneralizations.

And anyone can find the 500+ criticisms of non-Muslims, so that's not my opinion, those 500+ instances are in the book, correct?

I don't know how that number was calculated or what those who calculated it used as their criteria for "criticism," but the Qur'an does contain many denouncements of non-belief, non-believers, etc. In that regard, it is, as I said earlier, quite similar to many other religions and worldviews.

So basically your argument appears to be: "I don't know anything about cognitive science, and I won't respond to your direct claims about the Quran, but I think your wrong"?

I know a bit about cognitive science, but I don't overestimate my knowledge given that I'm just a layperson who has only read about it from authoritative sources.

And I did respond to your claims about the Qur'an. I'm finding that trying to discuss almost anything related to Muslims and Islam with you tends to go similarly most of the time: it keeps going in fruitless circles and gets bogged down in unsubstantiated arguments (e.g., bringing up the whole thing about praying five times a day as if it were something sinister that religious people pray as their religion instructs them to) that are mere opinions in a quasi-intellectual wrapping, like the invocation of cognitive science while stating an array of personal opinions (much of which are not properly substantiated, like asserting that "Islamists" make up a third of all Muslims).

I don't find that too compelling, would you?

I don't find attempts to overgeneralize about a religious population of about two billion people compelling, especially when that is done in a context where it is presented, whether explicitly or implicitly, as grounds for the bombing and denial of national sovereignty of a subset of them.

 

[metis]

I don’t see any tactical advantage of occupying said territory. The West Bank is only a measly 20% of Israel.

But it goes into the heart of Israel, it would leave it even more vulnerable to attack as we saw in the past.