If Israel Stopped Occupying The West Bank Would There Be Peace Between The Jews And Arabs?

[Jayhawker Soule]

Do you honestly believe that anyone in their right mind would consider it credible that you are some resident expert on how "Muslims think"?

The mechanics of indoctrination are well known.

Sorry. I forgot that those people are all alike.

 

[Debater Slayer]

[...] hatred of Muslims and Arabs.

Many people where I live, including many ex-Muslims (so they couldn't possibly be said to be "Islamists"), have noticed just how much vitriol and hatred some in the "civilized world" have toward them, and it has led a lot of people to reconsider their idealization of Western powers. It's hatred coated in Western supremacism and a new variety of the "White Man's Burden." You can see it in the insinuations from the likes of Sam Harris and Bill Maher when they imply or even directly say that people should basically pick sides in the conflict merely based on the supposed beliefs, rather than actions, of each group or that people shouldn't care about those being bombed because the latter don't have secularist or Western-oriented beliefs. It's blatant mass-murder apologetics on the basis of stereotypes and hypotheticals (e.g., "They would oppress us if they could!" even though the current situation is a far cry from that scenario).

And the grand irony is that many of those justifying the mass slaughter while claiming to stand for "Western culture" claim to base their cultural ideals on the Bible and Christianity, which originated in the very places that are now being bombed and illegally occupied. The world's oldest Christian community in Bethlehem, Jesus' birthplace, canceled Christmas festivities last year in mourning over the killing of their compatriots.

Despite all of the double standards, supremacism, vitriol, and ethnically and religiously charged hatred that have become abundantly evident throughout the last year, you will still see some try to claim moral or cultural superiority while demonstrating exactly why that sense of superiority is both misplaced and pernicious through their own hatred and support for violence that are no less clear than those of fundamentalist extremists and terrorist sympathizers. It all strikes me as oblivious and self-aggrandizing to an extent that almost defies belief.

 

[Jimmy]

Many people where I live, including many ex-Muslims, have noticed just how much vitriol and hatred some in the "civilized world" have toward them, and it has led a lot of people to reconsider their idealization of Western powers. It's hatred coated in Western supremacism and a new variety of the "White Man's Burden." You can see it in the insinuations from the likes of Sam Harris and Bill Maher when they imply or even directly say that people basically shouldn't care about those being bombed because the latter don't have secularist or Western-oriented beliefs. It's blatant mass-murder apologetics on the basis of stereotypes and hypotheticals (e.g., "They would oppress us if they could!" even though the current situation is a far cry from that scenario).

And the grand irony is that many of those justifying the mass slaughter while claiming to stand for "Western culture" claim to base their cultural ideals on the Bible and Christianity, which originated in the very places that are now being bombed and illegally occupied. The world's oldest Christian community in Bethlehem, Jesus' birthplace, canceled Christmas festivities last year in mourning over the killing of their compatriots.

Despite all of the double standards, supremacism, vitriol, and ethnically and religiously charged hatred that have become abundantly evident throughout the last year, you will still see some try to claim moral or cultural superiority while demonstrating exactly why that sense of superiority is both misplaced and pernicious through their own hatred and support for violence that are no less clear than those of fundamentalist extremists and terrorist sympathizers. It all strikes me as oblivious and self-aggrandizing to an extent that almost defies belief.

Nah. The majority of people on earth are good people, but you’re entitled to believe otherwise of course.

 

[Debater Slayer]

that's not how Islam works. I think you are imagining that Muslims think the way that westerners think, and that's simply not the case.

"Muslims" and "westerners" are not monolithic groups with some uniform way of thinking, nor is Islam a monolithic religion without diversity in beliefs among its adherents. The above strikes me as overgeneralized beyond any meaningfulness or usefulness.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Nah. The majority of people on earth are good people, but you’re entitled to believe otherwise of course.

I didn't say otherwise. I was specific regarding the attitudes I was criticizing.

 

[Jimmy]

I didn't say otherwise. I was specific regarding the attitudes I was criticizing.

Oh cool then you’re just talking about a minority of bigots worldwide.

 

[icehorse]

Sorry. I forgot the those people are all alike.

If you're operating in good faith why would you make a post like this?

 

[icehorse]

"Muslims" and "westerners" are not monolithic groups with some uniform way of thinking, nor is Islam a monolithic religion without diversity in beliefs among its adherents. The above strikes me as overgeneralized beyond any meaningfulness or usefulness.

There are some commonalities amongst humans and amongst Muslims. There are things we CAN generalize on. We can generalize on the mechanics of indoctrination and propaganda. We can generalize on the foundational claims of Islam.

Let me ask you, what percentage of Muslims think the Quran is the word of god? What percentage think Muhammad was god's messenger?

 

[Debater Slayer]

There are some commonalities amongst humans and amongst Muslims. There are things we CAN generalize on. We can generalize on the mechanics of indoctrination and propaganda.

And assuming that Muslims, or even most Muslims, must be indoctrinated or victims of propaganda is as baseless as it is infantilizing of them. It's not like Muslims are uniquely susceptible to either—after all, for a couple of examples, there are many "progressives" and "rationalists" who also fall for both.

We can generalize on the foundational claims of Islam.

Let me ask you, what percentage of Muslims think the Quran is the word of god? What percentage think Muhammad was god's messenger?

A 100% of them, obviously. It's like asking what percentage of Christians regard the Bible as divinely inspired. Is that supposed to negate the diversity in beliefs among followers of Islam?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

If you're operating in good faith why would you make a post like this?

If you were operating rationally and devoid of ignorant islamophobic generalizations why would you presume yourself qualified to know or lecture on how those people (i.e., close to 2 billion Muslims) think?

 

[icehorse]

And assuming that Muslims, or even most Muslims, must be indoctrinated or victims of propaganda is as baseless as it is infantilizing of them. It's not like Muslims are uniquely susceptible to either—after all, for a couple of examples, there are many "progressives" and "rationalists" who also fall for both.

It's estimated that roughly half the world's Muslims perform their 5 times a day prayers.

As for "uniquely susceptible", I think that if you're really reading my posts I've implied that I agree with you several times on that point, correct?

As for infantilizing them, are you arguing that Muslims are somehow not susceptible to the same mechanisms than the rest of humans? As I've said several times now, the mechanisms of indoctrination and propaganda are universal and well known. So the real question is whether or not an individual is being sufficiently exposed to these mechanisms, not whether they work.

 

[icehorse]

A 100% of them, obviously. It's like asking what percentage of Christians regard the Bible as divinely inspired. Is that supposed to negate the diversity in beliefs among followers of Islam?

Ah, so we CAN make some generalizations, thank you. And BTW, just because they share some beliefs in common doesn't mean they aren't diverse, of course they're diverse, that's just a red herring argument you're making.

 

[icehorse]

If you were operating rationally and devoid of ignorant islamophobic generalizations why would you presume yourself qualified to know or lecture on how those people (i.e., close to 2 billion Muslims) think?

How about you stop with the slurs and engage in actual debate. Do you disagree with anything I've said about indoctrination? About fundamental beliefs in Islam?

To be clear, ALL HUMANS are susceptible to indoctrination. And the creators of Islam were ahead of their time in understanding how to foster indoctrination, and to their credit they did it brilliantly. This is not about Muslims, it's about the mechanisms of Islam.

 

[Debater Slayer]

It's estimated that roughly half the world's Muslims perform their 5 times a day prayers.

I would need to see a reliable source for that claim, but I don't think it matters much either way. If it's true, it simply means that half of a religion's followers perform its prayers daily. That seems to me altogether unremarkable.

As for "uniquely susceptible", I think that if you're really reading my posts I've implied that I agree with you several times on that point, correct?

My view is that Muslims are no more susceptible to indoctrination or propaganda than other people and that they're not some group with monolithic beliefs (hence my response to the "how Muslims think"/"how westerners think" argument).

As for infantilizing them, are you arguing that Muslims are somehow not susceptible to the same mechanisms than the rest of humans? As I've said several times now, the mechanisms of indoctrination and propaganda are universal and well known. So the real question is whether or not an individual is being sufficiently exposed to these mechanisms, not whether they work.

I'm saying that Muslims are like other people and that there's nothing sinister in merely believing that the Qur'an is God's word and Muhammad is his messenger. There are various interpretations of Islamic texts, whether the Qur'an or hadiths.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Ah, so we CAN make some generalizations, thank you.

Those are two things that are essentially tautological here: by calling them "Muslims," one has, presumably, already assumed as a prerequisite that they believe the Qur'an is God's word and Muhammad is his messenger. "Hassan is a Muslim" is identical to "Hassan believes the Qur'an is God's word and Muhammad is his messenger," just like referring to someone as a Christian or Buddhist implies that the person in question has some central beliefs that meet the definition of being a follower of either religion.

That's not the same as generalizing about "how Muslims think" just based on those two central beliefs that could entail all sorts of different interpretations of the religion's texts.

And BTW, just because they share some beliefs in common doesn't mean they aren't diverse, of course they're diverse, that's just a red herring argument you're making.

Then what is the meaningfulness of talking about how "Muslims" or "westerners" supposedly think? Those are two groups including over a billion people each. Does each of the two groups have some shared way of thinking among all of its members?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

How about you stop with the slurs and engage in actual debate. Do you disagree with anything I've said about indoctrination? About fundamental beliefs in Islam?

I disagree with obnoxious statements like ...

that's not how Islam works. I think you are imagining that Muslims think the way that westerners think, and that's simply not the case.

But, then again, I've actually interacted and socialized with Muslims.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Then what is the meaningfulness of talking about how "Muslims" or "westerners" supposedly think?

Especially given that some folks actually manage to be both. (No wonder I'm so confused.)

 

[Godobeyer]

If you do a little searching on polls of Muslims in Europe, a large percentage of them do in fact want to bring Sharia to their host country.

Every one want spread it's culture around the world especially West, sometimes forced countries to be democratic, change their regimes and forced remove execution laws and accept LGBT.

I don't recall any muslims refugees or community want made independent country jn middle of Europe, as Refugees jews did in Palestin.

Btw France host around 5 million origin Algerians, about 7 millions muslims.
So it's ok if they ask for their independent country?

 

[icehorse]

I would need to see a reliable source for that claim, but I don't think it matters much either way. If it's true, it simply means that half of a religion's followers perform its prayers daily. That seems to me altogether unremarkable.

Repeating the same message over and over again, day after day after day indoctrinates the speaker to that message. Again, this is true for ALL HUMANS.

That's not the same as generalizing about "how Muslims think" just based on those two central beliefs that could entail all sorts of different interpretations of the religion's texts.

Fair enough "how they think" was poorly put on my part. But I think "what they think" is on the mark.

As for different interpretations, of course that's true up to a point. But the Quran is extremely repetitive on some main themes and those main themes will make their way into the minds of ANYONE who hears them over and over again. Over the years I've participated in and read countless debates on interpreting the Quran. What theologians and scholars almost always whiff on is that the parsimonious messages are the ones that get thru to the listener. so you can go on and on about your scholarly interpretation of the text, and that is a legitimate thing to study. But it is separate from what happens in the brains and minds of Muslims who hear the words over and over again throughout their lives.

 

[icehorse]

Every one want spread it's culture around the world especially West, sometimes forced countries to be democratic, change their regimes and forced remove execution laws and accept LGBT.

I don't recall any muslims refugees or community want made independent country jn middle of Europe, as Refugees jews did in Palestin.

Btw France host around 5 million origin Algerians, about 7 millions muslims.
So it's ok if they ask for their independent country?

I think you help me make my point