If Jesus Died...

[firedragon]

You don't get a gift if you reject it. My Dad gave me a piece of land but I still had to accept it. Grace isn't forced on anyone.

Accepted or not, that land is in your name. If not, your dad just told you a lie. If it's in your name, it does not matter if you reject it or accept it, it will be in your name anyway.

That's why these analogies are a bad habit.

 

[firedragon]

You are making the claim but asking questions to back it up.
Sorry but I am not the purveyor of religious truth.

Religious belief doesn't usually need proof. So belief is not restricted to any one particular concept of God.

Nakosis. I think you have more capacity than this kind of typical rhetoric.

 

[paradox]

The payment made in full. Nothing else is being asked of us.

If one takes 1 John 2:2 out of the context of the whole new testament then this is what one may conclude.
But otherwise, Jesus and John the baptist gave directions on how to be saved.

I like how Christians say in contradictory terms that Jesus died, and then afterwards say he's alive.

resurrection is not contradiction of death.

 

[F1fan]

He allows free will. He is the supreme authority. It's really not hard to understand once a person understands it. Not a conundrum.

You're just repeating Christian dogma. None of this is factual. You're aware of this, aren't you?

 

[Twilight Hue]

resurrection is not contradiction of death.

It most certainly is.

 

[paradox]

It most certainly is.

how?
how would you describe or logically argument the contradiction?

 

[Twilight Hue]

how?
how would you describe or logically argument the contradiction?

The dead simply dont come back to life. Ever.

About as logical and forthright as it can get.

Once dead always dead.

 

[wellwisher]

Yet God does not have to ask to forgive us. He can just do it.

Sin is connected to law. We would not know about a particular sin until the law says, "thou shall not do X". Forgiveness of sin makes law void, since law involves punishment for violation. If one's sins are forgiven in advance, there is no longer law, because law loses it teeth.

For example, if one breaks the speed limit and the Police Officer that pulls you over decides to forgive your violation with a warning and nothing more happens; forgiveness of sin, we get the same end result as they're being no speeding law that day on that road.

When Jesus died for our sins, it cames down to our own choice whether one still accepts law or not. Law is still with us. We still have to pay taxes and cannot drive over the speed limit, even though we have the forgiveness of sins. Law is no longer due to God, due to forgiveness of sin. It is now exclusively due to man, who are not as forgiven, when you violate their law. One will no longer go to hell for breaking the speed limit. But man can punish you, by stealing some of your money, in the name of their law.

A distinction was made, between the Children of the Bond Woman and the Children of the Promise. The children of the Bond Woman are like children of slaves who has no choice but to follow orders. The Children of the Promise, are like children of God who are not under law, since God has already forgiven them in advance, like an indulgent parent.

Law is connected to the tree of knowledge of good and evil, which was the tree of Satan. God did not tell humans to choose Law and knowledge of good and evil. There was a taboo in place. Humans choose that for themselves, with the coaxing of Satan. Law is not from God, but from Satan. However, humans thought law was from God, even though God told them not to do it this way.

Forgiveness of sin was there to reassure humans there was a better way that God had in mind for Adam and Eve, before they decided to serve Satan and Law. This is why Jesus is often called the second Adam. Jesus places us at the crossroads of Eden, once again, able over come original sin by our own choice. History shows that most humans, when given the same choices as Adam and Eve, still chose Satan and law, once again. Old habits were hard to break.

This may have to do with genetics and human selection, that involved humans choosing law over thousands of years. Violation of law would given selective disadvantages; pain and death. This pattern of selective behavior has become genetically innate, but we still have will and choice. But most people follow the easy path of innate; children of slaves who have to follow orders out of fear.

If you owned a slave, you can play God. You can make unjust laws and they have to obey. You can be abusive in the name of your own owner-slave world. This may also be why law was maintained by man even with the forgiveness of sin. Abusive people liked playing God via law. Forgiveness of sin meant even the slaves were forgiven, making the abusive people lose some power. Those who make the most laws are the most abusive since this leads to the most violations and the most punishment and abuse. They get to micromanage you like a slave.

 

[paradox]

The dead simply dont come back to life. Ever.

About as logical and forthright as it can get.

Once dead always dead.

this is supposed to be argument based rather than evidence based but OK, you have no argument.

evidence based there is evidence that Jesus resurrected because his disciples and some other people saw him after crucifixion.

 

[Kenny]

1 John 2:2

For all of Man's sins, aren't we all then redeemed?
The payment made in full. Nothing else is being asked of us.

To say God asks anything else from us, isn't this denying the payment Jesus already made?

Yes (in redemption)... and no - there is one more step but I believe you are perceiving a spiritual truth from God.

You are correct in that God has already reconciled Himself to the world. But, as in the beginning, He yields to the free will of man on the basis of love because love can't force itself on a person. It must be free given and freely received.

Paul understood that the relationship of God and man is like unto a marriage. One proposes but the other must receive the proposal

Note what Jesus said!

John 16:"7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; 10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Vs 9: The statement basically says that everyday sin isn't the problem. Why? Because He has redeemed man from sin. But what sin then is the problem? The not receiving the marriage gift that is offered to man.

Vs 10: Why is it not sins? Because Jesus has gone to the Father and reconciled man's sins with Him to offer "righteousness" which is of God. The word "righteousness" comes from the Hebrew understanding of covenant where there is a face-to-face relationship. A joining into one. It is finished as far as the Father is concerned.

Vs 11: What then is judged? Notice that man is not judged! It is the prince of this world, Satan, which is judged. However, if we reject the offer, then man receives the judgment that wasn't meant for them. Guilty by association.

If I can say it this way, if a person kills another person and jumps into a getaway car, even if the driver never wanted to be involved in the killing, he is guilty by association. If you don't want to accept the love of God, you are in essence choosing the god of this world. God doesn't want that to happen for He wants all men to be in relationship with Him but He yields to man's will.

As it was said in the TaNaKh, "Before you is life and death, choose life".

It remains a choice.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Gifts don't place an onus on the recipient. If the recipient is required to do something, then it it is not a gift. It is a commodity.

That's silly. If I reject your gift and throw it in the trash, I'm not going to receive any benefit from it. So yes I have to do something, I have to receive it with gratitude.

 

[Wildswanderer]

There is no free will if God exists. God could have created any universe He wanted. A universe where you did not believe or believed. So your belief is not your choice.

That logic doesn't make sense to me. God knowing doesn't equal God causing. I still have a choice, but not if there is no God, then everything is predetermined by blind causation.

 

[Twilight Hue]

this is supposed to be argument based rather than evidence based but OK, you have no argument.

evidence based there is evidence that Jesus resurrected because his disciples and some other people saw him after crucifixion.

That's not evidence much less an impossibility.

Death however is permanent.

That is evidence.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Accepted or not, that land is in your name. If not, your dad just told you a lie. If it's in your name, it does not matter if you reject it or accept it, it will be in your name anyway.

That's why these analogies are a bad habit.

Not unless I agreed to have it signed over to me. Like any good father, God asks. He doesn't force us to accept anything from him.

 

[firedragon]

Not unless I agreed to have it signed over to me. Like any good father, God asks. He doesn't force us to accept anything from him.

You just made that up didn't you?

Anyway, where in the Bible does it speak about "God asking first"?

Thanks in advance.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

1 John 2:2 For all of Man's sins, aren't we all then redeemed?
The payment made in full. Nothing else is being asked of us.
To say God asks anything else from us, isn't this denying the payment Jesus already made?

Yes, Jesus was a ransom sacrifice for man's sins - 1 John 4:10 B; Matthew 20:28.
I find according to 1 John 1:6-7 what is being asked of us is to ' walk ' with Jesus.
Please notice the word " if " in verse 7.
A little word but comes with BIG meaning as to doing our part.
We need to endure faithful to the end - Matthew 24:13
End of one's life, or to be found faithful at the soon coming 'time of separation' on Earth - Matthew 25:31-34.

 

[ppp]

That's silly. If I reject your gift and throw it in the trash, I'm not going to receive any benefit from it. So yes I have to do something, I have to receive it with gratitude.

That is ridiculous. If you pee in my cornflakes, and I forgive you for it, you have my forgiveness irrespective of your acceptance. You have my forgiveness whether or not you feel gratitude for it.

For a sub-culture who talk so much of forgiveness, Christians have little understanding of how it works. You are literally trying to treat forgiveness as a physical commodity that can be placed into a trash bin. Quit hiding behind metaphors and deal with reality..

 

[URAVIP2ME]

......Anyway, where in the Bible does it speak about "God asking first"?...........

We are all asked (offered) to 'repent' if we don't want to 'perish' (be destroyed) - 2 Peter 3:9; Romans 2:4

 

[firedragon]

We are all asked (offered) to 'repent' if we don't want to 'perish' (be destroyed) - 2 Peter 3:9; Romans 2:4

Thats irrelevant. Cmon mate. Any verse you get to?

This is not God asking people "can I give you this" and offers salvation by dying on the cross.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

........Death however is permanent. ..........

You are Not alone in your thinking, after all we have Not witnessed anyone being resurrected.
What the Bible teaches is that the resurrection is still future, still ahead of us - Acts of the Apostles 24:15
'There is going to be' a resurrection......
Unlike non-believers, Christians agree with chapter 15 of 1st Corinthians.
Resurrection Day is Jesus' coming Millennium-Long Day of governing over Earth for a thousand years.
Some like Jesus being resurrected to Heaven, but most to have a happy-and-healthy physical resurrection on Earth.