If Jesus isn't the only way to come to God...

[Valjean]

Humans have a bias against God and proofs of him.

Huh? God(s) seem to have been pretty popular throughout written history.
Proofs of Him? Am I understanding this claim correctly? Are you claiming actual evidence supporting His existence?

I don't ignore natural explanations. The argument is not contingent on whether those are possible explanations or not.

However, I won't go to further details here. If you like we can have one on one debate on this in the debate section, else, the efforts here it will be lost in the thread and pretty much fruitless.

There are familiar, known, and understood explanations. What sense does it make to invent an unevidenced, fantastical narrative? It's like taking Kipling's Just So stories for fact.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Humans have a bias against God and proofs of him.

I was a Christian for thirty years and had sincerely believed in God for ten years before that, but I had never seen, experienced, or interacted with him. I knew plenty of Christians who said they felt his "presence" in their lives, but I never felt it, and it wasn't for a lack of trying either. In my case, sincerely believing in God by faith didn't exactly work out for me, nor did years of dedicated and earnest prayer to God. So, I no longer accept the existence of any deity based on faith. Having said that, I'm not willing to entirely dismiss the existence of any deities because I believe in supernatural phenomena, and the existence of deities could be a possibility in this regard. I can honestly say that I believe that human spirits and non-human entities exist, but I don't just claim to believe without providing what I consider to be evidence that substantiates my belief. I'm totally convinced, and I've shared my experiences on this forum for two and a half years now. I'm not convinced that any deities exist, but I'm totally convinced that human spirits and non-human entities exist.

I'm sure that it would make a significant difference for me if I could conclusively document the existence of deities like I can with human spirits and non-human entities as a veteran paranormal researcher and investigator, or if I could sense, see, hear, and directly communicate with any kind of deity like I can with human spirits and non-human entities as a spirit medium. As a medium, I've spent the past forty-five years of my life sensing, seeing, and hearing human spirits, as well as a few non-human entities. For the past seventeen years, I've had direct interactions with human spirits and non-human entities, but I've never experienced any direct encounters (feeling, seeing, hearing, or speaking directly to) with any deity. The only supernatural phenomena I've ever witnessed in a church were the spirits of lost and confused Christians, who had no idea what was happening to them. I truly felt sorry for these lost spirits.

I believe in supernatural phenomena for reasons that I've discussed often on this forum (such as these posts here and here, which include additional posts to read). Needless to say, I've witnessed enough of this phenomenon during the last forty-five years of my life that there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that it is real. I've also had multiple eyewitnesses validate many of my first-hand experiences with it. Furthermore, two therapists and three psychologists have evaluated me in an effort to determine if there is a natural explanation for what I've been experiencing since I was six years old, but there is none. I've also undergone a psychiatric evaluation and two cranial CT scans in further efforts to find a natural explanation for what I experience, but yet again, there is none. As a result, I'm confident that what I'm experiencing is real, and modern science has yet to conclusively explain it. These are the primary reasons why I believe in the existence of genuine supernatural phenomena in the physical world, something that neither science nor the Bible, the Quran, nor any religious dogma can rationally explain or refute. To clarify, my beliefs on this subject are based on my personal encounters with supernatural phenomena.

I'm editing this post to include a previous one in which I further explained my many years of personal encounters with supernatural phenomena.

What is Evidence?

I never spoke for others. I simply list simple facts. Which part of my speech made you think that I speak for others, please point it out. Thanks. Who knows how many pages back. Post the whole thing if you're curious.

www.religiousforums.com

 

[Aupmanyav]

How about the presumption of no God. To each his own then.

Yeah, to each his own. I would not presume existence of God or soul. If I find some evidence, I will change my views.

 

[Whateverist]

Yeah, to each his own. I would not presume existence of God or soul. If I find some evidence, I will change my views.

Neither do I. But when it comes to understanding our own experience I don’t demand objective, evidence seen from outside. Here intuition counts for a lot just as it would to understand a character in a novel, a poem or the attraction of a painting.

There is something soul can mean that adds to understanding ourselves and something God could be referring to that can shed light on what the cosmos is and our place in it.

 

[Brian2]

Adam was God's first begotten according to Genesis and the 2nd Adam was attributed to be the Christ, so if Christ equates to "anointed one", then there is your answer. If not, then perhaps I'm not seeing clearly enough to understand the "true" intent of meaning.

Jesus is God's only begotten.

 

[Brian2]

Christians believe that Jesus is the only way to come to God, and the only mediator between God and man, making Christianity the only true religion. This belief is based upon the following Bible verses.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Jesus did not say that He was the only way to come to the Father for all of time, but that is what Christians believe. However, that makes no sense because we know that before Jesus walked the earth the Jews came to God by way of Moses, so why would Jesus suddenly become the only way for all time? Why couldn't Muslims come to God by way of Muhammad and Baha'is by way of Baha'u'llah, at a later time in history?

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Before Jesus walked the earth, Moses was a mediator between God and men, so why couldn't Muslims come to God by way of yet another mediator, Muhammad, and Baha'is by way of yet another mediator, Baha'u'llah?



This post is about if Jesus isn't the only way to come to God.

If Jesus isn't the only way to come to God that would mean that Christianity is not the only true religion.
In that case, I have two questions:

1) How would that make Christianity any less of a true religion?
2) How would that make Jesus any less of a Savior?

These questions are mainly directed at Christians, although anyone is welcome to answer them.

Thanks, Trailblazer

Everyone has to face and be judged by Jesus when they die. So Jesus, the Son is the only way to the Father.

 

[Jimmy]

Jesus is God's only begotten.

No doubt about it

 

[Jimmy]

I was a Christian for thirty years and had sincerely believed in God for ten years before that, but I had never seen, experienced, or interacted with him. I knew plenty of Christians who said they felt his "presence" in their lives, but I never felt it, and it wasn't for a lack of trying either. In my case, sincerely believing in God by faith didn't exactly work out for me, nor did years of dedicated and earnest prayer to God. So, I no longer accept the existence of any deity based on faith. Having said that, I'm not willing to entirely dismiss the existence of any deities because I believe in supernatural phenomena, and the existence of deities could be a possibility in this regard. I can honestly say that I believe that human spirits and non-human entities exist, but I don't just claim to believe without providing what I consider to be evidence that substantiates my belief. I'm totally convinced, and I've shared my experiences on this forum for two and a half years now. I'm not convinced that any deities exist, but I'm totally convinced that human spirits and non-human entities exist.

I'm sure that it would make a significant difference for me if I could conclusively document the existence of deities like I can with human spirits and non-human entities as a veteran paranormal researcher and investigator, or if I could sense, see, hear, and directly communicate with any kind of deity like I can with human spirits and non-human entities as a spirit medium. As a medium, I've spent the past forty-five years of my life sensing, seeing, and hearing human spirits, as well as a few non-human entities. For the past seventeen years, I've had direct interactions with human spirits and non-human entities, but I've never experienced any direct encounters (feeling, seeing, hearing, or speaking directly to) with any deity. The only supernatural phenomena I've ever witnessed in a church were the spirits of lost and confused Christians, who had no idea what was happening to them. I truly felt sorry for these lost spirits.

I believe in supernatural phenomena for reasons that I've discussed often on this forum (such as these posts here and here, which include additional posts to read). Needless to say, I've witnessed enough of this phenomenon during the last forty-five years of my life that there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that it is real. I've also had multiple eyewitnesses validate many of my first-hand experiences with it. Furthermore, two therapists and three psychologists have evaluated me in an effort to determine if there is a natural explanation for what I've been experiencing since I was six years old, but there is none. I've also undergone a psychiatric evaluation and two cranial CT scans in further efforts to find a natural explanation for what I experience, but yet again, there is none. As a result, I'm confident that what I'm experiencing is real, and modern science has yet to conclusively explain it. These are the primary reasons why I believe in the existence of genuine supernatural phenomena in the physical world, something that neither science nor the Bible, the Quran, nor any religious dogma can rationally explain or refute. To clarify, my beliefs on this subject are based on my personal encounters with supernatural phenomena.

I'm editing this post to include a previous one in which I further explained my many years of personal encounters with supernatural phenomena.

What is Evidence?

I never spoke for others. I simply list simple facts. Which part of my speech made you think that I speak for others, please point it out. Thanks. Who knows how many pages back. Post the whole thing if you're curious.

www.religiousforums.com

I definitely feel his “presence”

 

[Jimmy]

Huh? God(s) seem to have been pretty popular throughout written history.
Proofs of Him? Am I understanding this claim correctly? Are you claiming actual evidence supporting His existence?

There are familiar, known, and understood explanations. What sense does it make to invent an unevidenced, fantastical narrative? It's like taking Kipling's Just So stories for fact.

Oh, because fantastical narratives are just so fantastical

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Everyone has to face and be judged by Jesus when they die. So Jesus, the Son is the only way to the Father.

You state this as if it were true instead of specifying that this is simply your personal Christian beliefs.

 

[Sargonski]

But this is all mythology. There's no real evidence for God. and all this planned creation and purpose is just folklore.

True. But there is a useful purpose to mythological tales while humankind evolves in its understandings. We are but "children" of the universe. Stories can be comforting.

FALSE !!! .. Have you Lads and Lasses learned nothing from the world around you since opening eyes and realizing "I AM" ?

No real evidence for God ? ? - Define "GOD" ? I say Look at the Sun .. the creator of life .. without which there would be none .. You need evidence that the Sun is real ?

What the freak are you talking about no evidence for "WHAT" ? what would constitute Evidence for this as yet undefined God .. which hopefully some will step up and define . What would be a "Godlike Power" .. if person came to you and told you they were a God .. the ability to call fire down from the sky through force of will ?

Define what you mean by God prior to making claims about evidence for this entity.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Why did he give free-will to choose evil. He knew that some people will choose. Why did he not remove this option to choose bad from free-will.
Deficient engineering. Design fault. And he said we are good.

Grief. That is why it’s free will. You and everybody else are free to do as you choose.


Of course, there are repercussions from your choices (Galatians 6:7) : you can choose to jump off a cliff, but you’ll probably die when you hit the bottom. But you’re free to do it.

Now, let’s just say I’m the creator, and you have to do everything I say.

Or, You can make your own choices in life…

Which would you prefer?


Good night, cousin.

 

[Trailblazer]

Everyone has to face and be judged by Jesus when they die.

I believe that everyone will be judged by God when they die because Baha'u'llah wrote the following:

"If, in the Day when all the peoples of the earth will be gathered together, any man should, whilst standing in the presence of God, be asked: “Wherefore hast thou disbelieved in My Beauty and turned away from My Self,” and if such a man should reply and say: “Inasmuch as all men have erred, and none hath been found willing to turn his face to the Truth, I, too, following their example, have grievously failed to recognize the Beauty of the Eternal,” such a plea will, assuredly, be rejected. For the faith of no man can be conditioned by any one except himself."

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 143-144

Baha'u'llah also wrote:

“Know ye that the world and its vanities and its embellishments shall pass away. Nothing will endure except God’s Kingdom which pertaineth to none but Him, the Sovereign Lord of all, the Help in Peril, the All-Glorious, the Almighty. The days of your life shall roll away, and all the things with which ye are occupied and of which ye boast yourselves shall perish, and ye shall, most certainly, be summoned by a company of His angels to appear at the spot where the limbs of the entire creation shall be made to tremble, and the flesh of every oppressor to creep. Ye shall be asked of the things your hands have wrought in this, your vain life, and shall be repaid for your doings. This is the day that shall inevitably come upon you, the hour that none can put back. To this the Tongue of Him that speaketh the truth and is the Knower of all things hath testified.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 122-125

So Jesus, the Son is the only way to the Father.

How is Jesus being the only way to the Father related to everyone being judged by Jesus when they die?

 

[Balthazzar]

Jesus is God's only begotten.

The point I'm making is Adam was the first man according to Genesis, the 2nd man Adam the second as written in the New Testament, and both as written would suggest begotten by God, one of the earth the other of Spirit. Jeus was given the attribute "only begotten", although this has been subject of controversy by many types over the years.

 

[Link]

I was a Christian for thirty years and had sincerely believed in God for ten years before that, but I had never seen, experienced, or interacted with him. I knew plenty of Christians who said they felt his "presence" in their lives, but I never felt it, and it wasn't for a lack of trying either. In my case, sincerely believing in God by faith didn't exactly work out for me, nor did years of dedicated and earnest prayer to God. So, I no longer accept the existence of any deity based on faith. Having said that, I'm not willing to entirely dismiss the existence of any deities because I believe in supernatural phenomena, and the existence of deities could be a possibility in this regard. I can honestly say that I believe that human spirits and non-human entities exist, but I don't just claim to believe without providing what I consider to be evidence that substantiates my belief. I'm totally convinced, and I've shared my experiences on this forum for two and a half years now. I'm not convinced that any deities exist, but I'm totally convinced that human spirits and non-human entities exist.

I'm sure that it would make a significant difference for me if I could conclusively document the existence of deities like I can with human spirits and non-human entities as a veteran paranormal researcher and investigator, or if I could sense, see, hear, and directly communicate with any kind of deity like I can with human spirits and non-human entities as a spirit medium. As a medium, I've spent the past forty-five years of my life sensing, seeing, and hearing human spirits, as well as a few non-human entities. For the past seventeen years, I've had direct interactions with human spirits and non-human entities, but I've never experienced any direct encounters (feeling, seeing, hearing, or speaking directly to) with any deity. The only supernatural phenomena I've ever witnessed in a church were the spirits of lost and confused Christians, who had no idea what was happening to them. I truly felt sorry for these lost spirits.

I believe in supernatural phenomena for reasons that I've discussed often on this forum (such as these posts here and here, which include additional posts to read). Needless to say, I've witnessed enough of this phenomenon during the last forty-five years of my life that there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that it is real. I've also had multiple eyewitnesses validate many of my first-hand experiences with it. Furthermore, two therapists and three psychologists have evaluated me in an effort to determine if there is a natural explanation for what I've been experiencing since I was six years old, but there is none. I've also undergone a psychiatric evaluation and two cranial CT scans in further efforts to find a natural explanation for what I experience, but yet again, there is none. As a result, I'm confident that what I'm experiencing is real, and modern science has yet to conclusively explain it. These are the primary reasons why I believe in the existence of genuine supernatural phenomena in the physical world, something that neither science nor the Bible, the Quran, nor any religious dogma can rationally explain or refute. To clarify, my beliefs on this subject are based on my personal encounters with supernatural phenomena.

I'm editing this post to include a previous one in which I further explained my many years of personal encounters with supernatural phenomena.

What is Evidence?

I never spoke for others. I simply list simple facts. Which part of my speech made you think that I speak for others, please point it out. Thanks. Who knows how many pages back. Post the whole thing if you're curious.

www.religiousforums.com

Salam

The Quran says if there is any book that would give the ability to talk to the dead (and also other abilities), it would be the Quran, but at the end, a reminder is a reminder, and people make of the book what they put into it.

I don't understand how you don't see existence of dead souls to be proof of God. Perhaps you can explain, what is a soul to you?

 

[Link]

Huh? God(s) seem to have been pretty popular throughout written history.
Proofs of Him? Am I understanding this claim correctly? Are you claiming actual evidence supporting His existence?

There are familiar, known, and understood explanations. What sense does it make to invent an unevidenced, fantastical narrative? It's like taking Kipling's Just So stories for fact.

If you wish, we can have one on one debate about it. Like I said, it will be lost in this thread, so I won't expand.

 

[Valjean]

How about the presumption of no God. Would that too need to be established?

No. It's the default belief; the empty slate we start with.
We start with non-belief, then add beliefs as evidence for them emerges.

I don't think either can be established because the proofs of science and reason have no traction there. Some will argue that just adds more for the side of no God but that is just assuming that our patterns of thought and speech which apply in ordinary life must suffice for what is imagined as being the ground of our and the cosmos' being - again with no justification given for such an assumption.

So god-belief is unfounded, irrational, but a common human foible.

To my way of thinking what motivates the notion of God is the question "why does anything at all exist?" Why the universe? Why our experience? What a God/gods is for in the lives of human beings is another matter and one I have no answer for although I see that others do. To each his own then.

Depends what axioms we start with.

 

[Valjean]

Salam

The Quran says if there is any book that would give the ability to talk to the dead (and also other abilities), it would be the Quran, but at the end, a reminder is a reminder, and people make of the book what they put into it.

I don't understand how you don't see existence of dead souls to be proof of God. Perhaps you can explain, what is a soul to you?

The existence of dead souls has not been established.
"God" is not the only possible explanation for dead souls.

 

[Valjean]

If you wish, we can have one on one debate about it. Like I said, it will be lost in this thread, so I won't expand.

That would be fine.

 

[Valjean]

Most apologetics is trash and all logic is empty.

Please explain the 'emptyness' of logic.