If Jesus isn't the only way to come to God...

[Link]

That would be fine.

So should I start the thread in the one on one debate section?

 

[Whateverist]

No. It's the default belief; the empty slate we start with.
We start with non-belief, then add beliefs as evidence for them emerges.

Spoken like a true fundamentalist. At what stage of development do you see the insufficient neuronal mass of the embryo to hold any belief whatsoever suddenly acquiring a steeled disbelief in something as complex as the idea of the divine? Please, enlighten me.

 

[Whateverist]

Please explain the 'emptyness' of logic.

Sure. Logic is simply the linking up of if-then statements to arrive at a desired conclusion. Whether you actually get there or not depends on starting with accurate premises and appropriately applied implications. Not a given. But the point is that the logic is just a formal (and empty) format which adds nothing.

 

[CG Didymus]

Yeah, to each his own. I would not presume existence of God or soul. If I find some evidence, I will change my views.

That is what is so weird. I really tried to believe in the whole born-again thing. And it felt like Jesus and the Holy Spirit were real. There was a light I felt inside. But... I was in my twenties, and I couldn't keep the Christian moral codes. And neither could most all of my Christian friends. We were all doing it with our Christian girlfriends. And sometimes it was the Christian girls that instigated it.

The light inside dimmed greatly. But then some Christian friends went totally worldly. They were drinking and doing drugs and living with their girlfriends. And these were the guys that just a few months before were leading the Bible studies.

Then I thought, "Why am I pretending to believe all this stuff literally, if I can't live by what it says?' Living in a "worldly" fashion, though, I agree with Christians, is pretty empty. But I can't get my mind to accept those Bible stories as being true.

Because of having felt that light inside for a while, I do believe that Christians or people in any religion, can feel that spiritual reality inside of them. And I still think that, in a lot of ways, it doesn't matter what the person believes, as long as they keep believing it.

And that's what we're facing here. True believers are "know" it's true. Maybe they don't have any proof or evidence other than their Scriptures, but they believe those Scriptures completely... at least they say they do. And to question God is not something they can easily admit to others or to themselves very easily.

Oh, I think that by proclaiming it even louder, kind of reinforces their inward belief about God and their religion.

 

[GoodAttention]

Sure. Logic is simply the linking up of if-then statements to arrive at a desired conclusion. Whether you actually get there or not depends on starting with accurate premises and appropriately applied implications. Not a given. But the point is that the logic is just a formal (and empty) format which adds nothing.

A logical conclusion should serve a purpose in the real world, and should only be considered when there can be benefit.

The fact that it "adds nothing" is because there is nothing to add but in fact "takes away" from any reasonable understanding of God.

I would call this the vacuum of logic, not emptiness, and is exactly the place where faith exists.

 

[sun rise]

That is what is so weird. I really tried to believe in the whole born-again thing. And it felt like Jesus and the Holy Spirit were real. There was a light I felt inside. But... I was in my twenties, and I couldn't keep the Christian moral codes. And neither could most all of my Christian friends. We were all doing it with our Christian girlfriends. And sometimes it was the Christian girls that instigated it.

Our reach always exceeds our grasp. I'm reminded of a poem about this:

What happens when your soul
Begins to awaken
Your eyes
And your heart
And the cells of your body
To the great Journey of Love?

First there is wonderful laughter
And probably precious tears

And a hundred sweet promises
And those heroic vows
No one can ever keep.

But still God is delighted and amused
You once tried to be a saint.

What happens when your soul
Begins to awake in this world

To our deep need to love
And serve the Friend?

O the Beloved
Will send you
One of His wonderful, wild companions—

Like Hafiz.

 

[sun rise]

Another comment:

That is what is so weird. I really tried to believe in the whole born-again thing. And it felt like Jesus and the Holy Spirit were real. There was a light I felt inside. But... I was in my twenties, and I couldn't keep the Christian moral codes.
...
Then I thought, "Why am I pretending to believe all this stuff literally, if I can't live by what it says?' Living in a "worldly" fashion, though, I agree with Christians, is pretty empty. But I can't get my mind to accept those Bible stories as being true.
...
Because of having felt that light inside for a while, I do believe that Christians or people in any religion, can feel that spiritual reality inside of them. And I still think that, in a lot of ways, it doesn't matter what the person believes, as long as they keep believing it.

I almost agree with what I take as a "spiritual but not religious" attitude. I would not stop with belief. I think it's important to try to live that spiritual reality in spite of how imperfect one is. I know a lot of people who work on being better musicians even if they will not make it to the concert stage. It is the same in the spiritual realm.

 

[CG Didymus]

I say Look at the Sun .. the creator of life .. without which there would be none .. You need evidence that the Sun is real ?

That's interesting. And maybe that's why some ancient people worshipped the Sun.

what would constitute Evidence for this as yet undefined God

I agree with Christians and other that say to look at creation... It had to come from somewhere. But why did it have to come from any one religion's definition of a creator God?

The Jews have their Scriptures. Their God is the creator. But then that God does things like ordering the killing of women and children? He floods the whole world? Yeah, maybe that God needs some redefining.

The Christian damage control... Those people were evil and needed to be destroyed. But actually, everyone is a sinner. All people deserve death and punishment. So, why were those people beyond help?

But anyway, God does send help to all that will listen and believe. He sends Jesus. All people have to do is believe in him, and they will be saved. Of course, to show that they truly believe, they should obey his commandments. But I doubt if anybody can. People, even Christians, aren't perfect. So, they are saved, even though they still commit sins, while others don't believe, or believe in the wrong religion, and maybe don't sin any more or any less than those Christians, but they get punished and sent to hell?

That can't be right. So, along comes a new message from God, the Baha'is. They say don't worry, no matter what, you're going to move on into the spiritual world. There is no place called hell. If you obey his rules and be as good as you can, and you'll be close to God. But those of you that aren't that good, you'll just be further from God. That's it. Do the best you can and all will be okay.

Every religion says something different and describes its Gods differently. What are people supposed to do? Obviously, what does happen is we argue back and forth which belief is true. And still... is there any proof for any of them and their Gods? Oh yeah, just look at creation. It couldn't have created itself.

 

[CG Didymus]

Another comment:



I almost agree with what I take as a "spiritual but not religious" attitude. I would not stop with belief. I think it's important to try to live that spiritual reality in spite of how imperfect one is. I know a lot of people who work on being better musicians even if they will not make it to the concert stage. It is the same in the spiritual realm.

Music is a great analogy. Like a kid is being pushed to play Classical music, but he turns "worldly" and joins a rock band. Actually, a few people went through that. Some of them were singing in Church praising Jesus, then walked away from that to sing the "devils" music in bars.

Now there is those in-between stories... a singing preaching that has an affair and goes to his congregation in tears and asks to be forgiven.

Then those prodigal son stories where the person goes for fame and money singing rock and pop music, gets into drinking and drugs, hits bottom and comes back to the church.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Salam

Peace.

The Quran says if there is any book that would give the ability to talk to the dead (and also other abilities), it would be the Quran, but at the end, a reminder is a reminder, and people make of the book what they put into it.

Thank you for this clarification, Link.

I don't understand how you don't see existence of dead souls to be proof of God. Perhaps you can explain, what is a soul to you?

First, I believe that a deceased human spirit is a soul. I believe it is a person's consciousness manifesting as a form of energy. I've used spirit and soul interchangeably, but I normally say spirit when referring to a deceased person or animal. I also believe that spirits (both human and animal) can be earthbound, which means they are either unable or unwilling to crossover to the spirit world. I can further explain this to you, if you are interested.

Second, I don't believe the existence of spirits is proof of God because of my personal experiences and encounters as a spirit medium and paranormal investigator. As a spirit medium, I've been asked by some of the earthbound spirits, "Where is God?" or "Where is Jesus?" I've also been asked, "Why am I not in heaven yet?" Over the course of my life, I've spoken directly to so many of these spirits who were utterly confused about why they weren't with God in heaven, why they weren't sleeping in their graves, awaiting some future rapture event, or whatever else they believed about the afterlife before their death. It was obvious to me that none of them had a comprehensible understanding of God or Jesus, as well as heaven or hell, as taught by the Bible or church doctrine. The spirits who were not Christians were just as confused by either the religious dogma they believed or by whatever else they believed about what should or should not happen to them after death. When I asked some of these spirits if God exists, they either responded with yes, no, or "I don't know," while others refused to answer or quickly changed the subject. My spirit guides, on the other hand, have told me that I must wait and see for myself. I haven't received definitive answers as to whether God exists or if any other deities exist. I've never had any personal encounters with one, either.

 

[Valjean]

So if you assume it's accurate: who cares. It describes a ritual sacrifice that was practiced thousands of years ago during an age when sacrifices of one sort or another including human sacrifice was basically world-wide. The only reason I'd even mention it in a debate was if someone asserted we need to follow everything in the Bible literally including animal sacrifice.

Just indicating the source of my statement about God liking the smell of burnt offerings, since it was so roundly disparaged.

Oh, because fantastical narratives are just so fantastical

????

 

[Jimmy]

Just indicating the source of my statement about God liking the smell of burnt offerings since it was so roundly disparaged.

????

God is a powerful, conscious, intentional, personage. The Abrahamic version is a judgemental lawgiver obsessed with the comings and goings of a certain ape on a planet in the Milky Way galaxy.

We cannot see, or hear, or feel this God. It cannot be detected. Given the known actions of physics and chemistry, there is no need for a God. God explains nothing that unconscious Nature cannot explain -- by known, measurable, observable, testable mechanisms. God is a special pleading.

Given that the objective evidence for a god is exactly equal to that of pink unicorns or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, why do you find our skepticism remarkable?

I assume you're a god-believer. May I ask why?

Ape lol. Leprechauns are real.

 

[Valjean]

So should I start the thread in the one on one debate section?

Sure. That would work fine. I'll check in a little later.

 

[Valjean]

FALSE !!! .. Have you Lads and Lasses learned nothing from the world around you since opening eyes and realizing "I AM" ?

No real evidence for God ? ? - Define "GOD" ? I say Look at the Sun .. the creator of life .. without which there would be none .. You need evidence that the Sun is real ?

What the freak are you talking about no evidence for "WHAT" ? what would constitute Evidence for this as yet undefined God .. which hopefully some will step up and define . What would be a "Godlike Power" .. if person came to you and told you they were a God .. the ability to call fire down from the sky through force of will ?

Define what you mean by God prior to making claims about evidence for this entity.

FALSE !!! .. Have you Lads and Lasses learned nothing from the world around you since opening eyes and realizing "I AM" ?

No real evidence for God ? ? - Define "GOD" ? I say Look at the Sun .. the creator of life .. without which there would be none .. You need evidence that the Sun is real ?

What the freak are you talking about no evidence for "WHAT" ? what would constitute Evidence for this as yet undefined God .. which hopefully some will step up and define . What would be a "Godlike Power" .. if person came to you and told you they were a God .. the ability to call fire down from the sky through force of will ?

Define what you mean by God prior to making claims about evidence for this entity.

Click to expand...

God is a powerful, conscious, intentional, personage. The Abrahamic version is a judgemental lawgiver obsessed with the comings and goings of a certain ape on a planet in the Milky Way galaxy.

We cannot see, or hear, or feel this God. It cannot be detected. Given the known actions of physics and chemistry, there is no need for a God. God explains nothing that unconscious Nature cannot explain -- by known, measurable, observable, testable mechanisms. God is a special pleading.

Given that the objective evidence for a god is exactly equal to that of pink unicorns or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, why do you find our skepticism remarkable?

I assume you're a god-believer. May I ask why?

 

[Sargonski]

That's interesting. And maybe that's why some ancient people worshipped the Sun.

I agree with Christians and other that say to look at creation... It had to come from somewhere. But why did it have to come from any one religion's definition of a creator God?

The Jews have their Scriptures. Their God is the creator. But then that God does things like ordering the killing of women and children? He floods the whole world? Yeah, maybe that God needs some redefining.

The Christian damage control... Those people were evil and needed to be destroyed. But actually, everyone is a sinner. All people deserve death and punishment. So, why were those people beyond help?

But anyway, God does send help to all that will listen and believe. He sends Jesus. All people have to do is believe in him, and they will be saved. Of course, to show that they truly believe, they should obey his commandments. But I doubt if anybody can. People, even Christians, aren't perfect. So, they are saved, even though they still commit sins, while others don't believe, or believe in the wrong religion, and maybe don't sin any more or any less than those Christians, but they get punished and sent to hell?

That can't be right. So, along comes a new message from God, the Baha'is. They say don't worry, no matter what, you're going to move on into the spiritual world. There is no place called hell. If you obey his rules and be as good as you can, and you'll be close to God. But those of you that aren't that good, you'll just be further from God. That's it. Do the best you can and all will be okay.

Every religion says something different and describes its Gods differently. What are people supposed to do? Obviously, what does happen is we argue back and forth which belief is true. And still... is there any proof for any of them and their Gods? Oh yeah, just look at creation. It couldn't have created itself.

I was not referring to the inability of the Theist to define God .. and/or the default definition "The God of Everything" these will sometimes proffer .. but the inability of the Atheist to define God.

For example .. in conversation about evolution --- Did God have a hand in it or not -- The Atheist jumps up and says "I don't believe in Magic" / "I don't believe in Godly Powers" / "I don't believe in God"

and I say .. OK .. Define God .. what is it that you don't believe in. .. and like 7 or 8 different Atheist Posters will not to it .. saying the onus is not on them to define the term God .. upon which I give examples "Godly Power" what would it take for someone to convince you they were a God .. hurling fire from the sky ..

Donut -- Zero -- they will not provide a definition. not tell me what it is they don't believe in .. one trying to give a proof ... leaving God Undefined.

I then say OK -- Your claim is then "I do not belive in Undefined" and Undefined could be said to be nothing .. no definition .. nothing you know of ... Right ! heh heh .. so the claim is now I do not belive in nothing .. which equals I believe in Something.

Now .. if we define God as Something .. or as the Joke response of the Theist "God is Everything" Everything = Something Right ! heh heh. OH now .. as we have now arrived at "I believe in God" .. nothing that the God of Everything Claim of the theist ends up as "I do not believe in God - on the other end of the circular loop. .. and crying out "God is Everything" = God is undefined.

So --- the point of this charade .. is to come up with a reasonable definition of God .. this definition can be anything .. .. just not "Everything"" or Nothing/Undefined.

God has to be defined in order for coherent non fallacious assertions can be made about such an entity. For example .. if one defines the Stars as Gods .. our Sun being the closest one to us .. our Patron God "Most High" / "On High" - Creator .. Father --- then we can say that the assertion "I do not believe in the existence of God" is surely false .. and in fact many Gods exist

Agency== ? What .. you want a God with Agency ? Well the Sun has agency .. of a sort but we are looking for something more than the forces that Govern the universe .. and though I will not deny that these are lesser Gods .. I am looking for something more "Like US .. in OUR Image" .. if you get my drift .. so how about some Woman .. who .. through force of will .. is able to do all kinds of "supernatural" things .. make chairs move through force of will .. fire reign down from the sky .. or summon rain to put out the fire ... or the wind to make it go higher !

Is this not "Godly Power" ? The ability, through force of will . to manipulate matter and energy .. or rather to manifest a thought into physical reality .. outside one's own body.. Moving with a thought rather than moving your finger !

Is this not a God-like Power -- Notice the very last part of the definition .. notice that up until that point .. you my dear fit into the definition of a God .. having the ability to manifest a thought into physical reality .. just not outside your own Body .. just one step short of a God.

and Now .. address the question of belief in God .. and give your answer at the end.

 

[Valjean]

Neither do I. But when it comes to understanding our own experience I don’t demand objective, evidence seen from outside. Here intuition counts for a lot just as it would to understand a character in a novel, a poem or the attraction of a painting.

So you believe because of a feeling? How accurate has that ever been in testing the truth of proposed claims, or understanding reality?
People have been using intuition and emotion for thousands of years. Has it ever produced consensus, or tested hypotheses?
It doesn't strike me as a reliable method.

 

[Valjean]

Jesus is God's only begotten.

Preaching. Evidence, please.

Everyone has to face and be judged by Jesus when they die. So Jesus, the Son is the only way to the Father.

Preaching. Evidence, por favor.

 

[Valjean]

No doubt about it

LOL! How long have you been posting here? Have you never noticed the skepticism permeating threads like this?

I definitely feel his “presence”

As have people for centuries, "feeling" all sorts of different presences.

 

[Sargonski]

God is a powerful, conscious, intentional, personage. The Abrahamic version is a judgemental lawgiver obsessed with the comings and goings of a certain ape on a planet in the Milky Way galaxy.

We cannot see, or hear, or feel this God. It cannot be detected. Given the known actions of physics and chemistry, there is no need for a God. God explains nothing that unconscious Nature cannot explain -- by known, measurable, observable, testable mechanisms. God is a special pleading.

Given that the objective evidence for a god is exactly equal to that of pink unicorns or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, why do you find our skepticism remarkable?

I assume you're a god-believer. May I ask why?

What is with the deflection .. from the correction .. of your logical fallacy .. and your assumption is completely false .. that I believe in some Abrahamic version of God .. which is not even defined .. your assumption that I believe in some "undefined" God .. assinine nonsense.. unintented to be sure .. but that is the problem and function of your lack of correction ... of these beliefs whos basis is fallacy === Just like the "God Believers" but in reverse.

"The Objective evidence for God" ?? What part of ... what are you defining as God .. do you not understand ? Objective evidence for what friend ? "Objective evidence for undefined" ? The flying spagetti monster is not "undefined" .. is this your definition of God .. and no wonder you can't fine evidence for it .. but do keep searching ?

Pink Unicorns are not that difficult to think might exist in the realm of the possible .. just because you have not discovered one on this planet .. does not mean these creatures do not exist on other planets .. under the bright light of a different God. .... and who are you to say there are not other Gods .. in addition to our Sun .. our Light .. Truth .. and creator .. but whose brothers and sisters are spread throughout the universe.

I assume you are a God (Sun) believer --- May I ask why ? God in this case is defined as our Beautiful Sun ..

Also it should be noticed that the "God of Everything" definition sometimes given by Theists is just as nonsensical and failed logic as the "undefined" God of the Atheist ..

One must define "God" in order find a path out of logical fallacy.

 

[Valjean]

Salam
I don't understand how you don't see existence of dead souls to be proof of God. Perhaps you can explain, what is a soul to you?

How is God the only possible explanation for this -- or any other phenomenon? How does God explain anything?
For that matter, what objective evidence do we have for God?