Maths is pretty cut and dry, in most cases. A logical error is an error universally.
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If Jesus isn't the only way to come to God...
- Thread starter Trailblazer
- Start date
Spice
StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
I haven't gotten that far into the Gita, but that sounds mighty good to me.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
If we pretend that the Bible is true and accurate, the flood happened about 5000 years ago. People were still living hundreds of years. Plus, there were giants. I've seen pictures of supposed skeletons of giants. If these are for real, I'd expect that Christians would be quick to point it out.
But what about skeletons of people from 5000 years ago. What are they like? Is their DNA of a higher quality? Are their bones denser? Do they give any indication that the person had lived for several hundreds of years? If there are bones like this, I'm sure Christians would have made a big deal about that too.
So, Christians... Are there any fossils that support your beliefs?
Wow! Just wow.
It’s pretty obvious that this is meant in a figurative sense. You didn’t get that?
It’s what these sacrifices represented. That is what was “sweet-smelling” to Him.
When the Israelites were acting wickedly, Jehovah hated their sacrifices! Isaiah 1 highlights this.
And when the Israelites debased themselves even more, imitating the Canaanite tribes around them by sacrificing their own children, Jehovah was repulsed! At Jeremiah 7:30,31, Jehovah called their actions “abominations”, and said:
“they… have built the high places of Tophet, That are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, To burn their sons and their daughters with fire, Which I did not command, Nor did it come up on My heart.”
And yet Christendom in order to control the masses, has been teaching Hellfire for centuries, even though the word doesn’t even exist in Scripture! “Gehenna” has been mistranslated as Hell, although there’s no connection.
I’ve probably wasted my time….
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Religion is not math or logic.
"but he shall wash the entrails and the legs with water. Then the priest shall bring it all and burn it on the altar; it is a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, a sweet aroma to the lord." -- Leviticus 1:13
Why did God kill Job's children just to win a bet?
Why did God harden Pharaoh's heart when Pharaoh wanted to let the Hebrews go? God apparently just wanted an excuse to cause death and destruction. Did the Egyptian's first-born deserve to die?
I assume I don't need to mention the Amalekites...
This does not seem like a loving or merciful god. He doesn't value human life.
Apologetics is.
Are you saying that religious doctrine is based on feelings rather than reason? How does one decide which doctrine is correct -- or doesn't it matter?
Ok, may I point out a contradiction you posted? You wrote this:
I wish I could impart to you what I’ve learned.
From observing the sheer variety of what we have from Him, I’d say He intended that (our enjoyment), but His purpose got ‘postponed’ when the issue of sovereignty (Genesis 3) was suddenly raised.
And issues take time to be settled.
But Christendom’s been around for about a thousand years before that, and was filling people’s minds with false teachings, like Hellfire & others. (That’s why the leading religion of the day, Catholicism, kept the Bible in a dead language, under penalty of death, to exert control.)
Does believing it, mean they are following it? No. You wrote:
“…how many Christians follow the guidelines in the Bible regarding sexual behavior?
I would say it is only a small minority.”
And I would agree.
Now, several decades ago, people did follow those guidelines on sex. And overall, society had more loving & committed families, raising stable children, & those societies had less social problems.
But there are other guidelines for Christians, such being kind, and controlling the tongue, and avoiding quarrels. (How many Bible believers, really follow those?) And some tenets are, in fact, commands from Christ: he told his disciples, “love one another” (John 15:12,17; etc). But since its inception, Christendom has been involved in one war after another. By keeping the Bible in a dead language, which in effect kept people from knowing what the Bible -or Jesus- really said, that aided Christendom to serve the needs of the nations in which they lived, providing manpower in times of war. Instead of being “not of / no part of the world” (John 15:19), Christendom joined it at the hip.
Have a good night.
But first, you said:
Many put on an act; most I think are hurting in some fashion though, whether they’ll admit or not.
I’m so sorry for your losses. But meditating on what I’ve been taught from the Bible, not only about understanding the reason mankind is suffering now, but also understanding what’s in store for the future, has helped me to cope with mine (losses.)
I wish I could impart to you what I’ve learned.
Well, from my reckoning, we’ve got cats and other animals and nature from our Creator. They bring me a lot of joy, too. (And good food… I have to add that!)
From observing the sheer variety of what we have from Him, I’d say He intended that (our enjoyment), but His purpose got ‘postponed’ when the issue of sovereignty (Genesis 3) was suddenly raised.
And issues take time to be settled.
Yes, it has been about 600 years since the Bible has been available for most people to read.
But Christendom’s been around for about a thousand years before that, and was filling people’s minds with false teachings, like Hellfire & others. (That’s why the leading religion of the day, Catholicism, kept the Bible in a dead language, under penalty of death, to exert control.)
Does believing it, mean they are following it? No. You wrote:
“…how many Christians follow the guidelines in the Bible regarding sexual behavior?
I would say it is only a small minority.”
And I would agree.
Now, several decades ago, people did follow those guidelines on sex. And overall, society had more loving & committed families, raising stable children, & those societies had less social problems.
But there are other guidelines for Christians, such being kind, and controlling the tongue, and avoiding quarrels. (How many Bible believers, really follow those?) And some tenets are, in fact, commands from Christ: he told his disciples, “love one another” (John 15:12,17; etc). But since its inception, Christendom has been involved in one war after another. By keeping the Bible in a dead language, which in effect kept people from knowing what the Bible -or Jesus- really said, that aided Christendom to serve the needs of the nations in which they lived, providing manpower in times of war. Instead of being “not of / no part of the world” (John 15:19), Christendom joined it at the hip.
Yes, and the Bible is the only “Holy Book” I know of, that provides such guidelines. Which, to me & others, is one evidence of its Divine Authorship.
Have a good night.
Jehovah God didn’t. Did he?
First of all, I must point out that you don’t even believe these events happened. And again, I say, you wouldn’t know about this if Jehovah wasn’t so candid.
But I’ll take it…
When did Pharaoh want to let the Israelites go? Even at the end, after his entire country had been ravaged, he tried to destroy them, going into the parted waters of the Red Sea! What kind of an idiot does that?!
Putting myself in his shoes - now don’t take me literal, as you at times seem to want to (haha) - once Moses threw down his staff and it turned into a snake, I’d have had my doubts about contending with this god ! But then, what happened? My (pharaoh’s) magic priests threw their staffs down and they became snakes!
(Question for you: did you ever wonder, what entity’s power was behind these staffs turning into snakes? The same one we read about in Job 1 & 2, who killed Job’s children!)
Regarding Egypt’s firstborn: what did Pharaoh do to the Israelites male children?
And here’s an important concept that most people are not aware of, they certainly weren’t / aren’t taught: there is no consciousness after death (probably like you believe). The only promise that God’s Word holds out for people to live again, even the “unrighteous”, is the Resurrection (Acts 24:15). The unrighteous also will be brought back to life, giving them an opportunity to learn about their Creator, without any misleading influences, & have the chance to live again.
It’s the only just solution.
I hope this makes some sense…. It’s late, and I’m starting to nod off.
Goodnight.
Humans have a bias against God and proofs of him.
I don't ignore natural explanations. The argument is not contingent on whether those are possible explanations or not.
However, I won't go to further details here. If you like we can have one on one debate on this in the debate section, else, the efforts here it will be lost in the thread and pretty much fruitless.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, I am not saying that. I don't think what we believe should ever be based upon feelings since feelings can lead us astray, away from reason.
I think our beliefs should be based upon our reason.
I think it does matter but all we can do is an independent investigation of truth and come to our own conclusions.
When we do that we won't all come to the same conclusions, because we all come from different perspectives and backgrounds.
Baha'is believe in what is called independent investigation of truth, which means that one should always investigate the truth for themselves if they want to know the truth. People should never take anyone else's word for what is true.
"The first Baha’i principle is the independent investigation of reality. Not found in any sacred Book of the past, it abolishes the need for clergy and sets us free from imitation and blind adherence to unexamined, dogmatic beliefs. Baha’is believe that no soul should follow ancestral or traditional beliefs without first questioning and examining their own inner landscape. Instead, the first Baha’i principle gives each individual the right and the duty to investigate and decide what they believe on their own."
Independent Investigation of Truth
The first Baha’i principle is the independent investigation of truth. Not found in any sacred Book of the past, it abolishes the need for clergy.
bahaiteachings.org
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
I don't know of many Christian doctrines that a Baha'i would believe are true. Jesus is God and part of a trinity? Nope. He rose from the dead? No, not literally. We all inherited a sin nature or even worse, we are all tainted with some "original" sin? No. Satan and his demons? Nor real?
The Jesus of the Baha'i Faith is not the same Jesus that Christians believe in. And I agree with them. But I don't believe in the Jesus of the Baha'i Faith either.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
I don't believe the Job story is a real, historical thing. If it's just a fictional religious story, I think it still makes God a jerk. He lets Satan mess with Job? And even lets Satan kill his children?
Of course, the great spiritual lesson... keep believing and trusting God, even if God allows everything you know and love to fall apart... in the end, He will reward you for keeping the faith.
Yeah, great spiritual lesson... but was the story true? But if you really think it is, what kind of God would allow some evil spirit being to do those things to a person that has shown that he loves and obeys his God?
Oh yeah, now he's really been tested and has really proven himself to God. A God that knows that Job would, so who was the test for? To prove to Satan that Job would do the right thing? If he's real, would Satan care? He knows he's going to get others to curse God after being tested with the slightest of problems.
Anyway, I know you think it's true. But can you see why some of us don't?
Whateverist
Active Member
How about the presumption of no God. Would that too need to be established? I don't think either can be established because the proofs of science and reason have no traction there. Some will argue that just adds more for the side of no God but that is just assuming that our patterns of thought and speech which apply in ordinary life must suffice for what is imagined as being the ground of our and the cosmos' being - again with no justification given for such an assumption.
To my way of thinking what motivates the notion of God is the question "why does anything at all exist?" Why the universe? Why our experience? What a God/gods is for in the lives of human beings is another matter and one I have no answer for although I see that others do. To each his own then.
Whateverist
Active Member
Most apologetics is trash and all logic is empty.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Everyone has some problems and emotional distress, it is all a matter of degree. However, I don't think most people have a diagnosis of depression and anxiety.
Well, we have different ideas about what is in store for the future. I won't live to see the kingdom come to earth since that is a long way ioff in the future but knowing it is coming is no solace for me and the personal problems I have.
When you have lost a spouse after decades of marriage then come back and talk to me. I have list everyone in my family. I only have one older brother left and he has dementia.
Why do Christians attribute everything good to be from God but nothing that is bad is ever from God? That is illogical and contradicts the Bible.
Isaiah 45:7
NIRV I cause light to shine. I also create darkness. I bring good times. I also create hard times. I do all these things. I am the Lord.
NIV I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things.
From observing the sheer variety of what we have from Him, I’d say He intended that our enjoyment, but from observing the suffering in this world I'd also say that God wants us to suffer.
“O thou seeker of the Kingdom! Thy letter was received. Thou hast written of the severe calamity that hath befallen thee—the death of thy respected husband. That honourable man hath been so subjected to the stress and strain of this world that his greatest wish was for deliverance from it. Such is this mortal abode: a storehouse of afflictions and suffering. It is ignorance that binds man to it, for no comfort can be secured by any soul in this world, from monarch down to the most humble commoner. If once this life should offer a man a sweet cup, a hundred bitter ones will follow; such is the condition of this world. The wise man, therefore, doth not attach himself to this mortal life and doth not depend upon it; at some moments, even, he eagerly wisheth for death that he may thereby be freed from these sorrows and afflictions. Thus it is seen that some, under extreme pressure of anguish, have committed suicide.”
That is true, but the issue of suffering in this mortal body and this physical world will never be settled, it will always exist since that is the nature of the material world.
Christianity is still filling peoples' minds with false teachings. That will never stop since the Christian doctrines have been laid down by the leaders and the Christians are convinced they are true, even though they are unsupported by the Bible.
It was more than several decades ago, it was more like 50 years ago! Ever since the sexual revolution things have gone downhill.
Yes, there were less social problems before that and families were more stable.
I could not agree with you more. the bulk of Christians follow the doctrines of Christianity rather than the teachings of Christ.
The Bible is not the only Holy Book that provides these guidelines. I cannot speak for other Holy Books, since I am not familiar with them, but I know for a fact that the Baha'i Writings provide the same guidelines as the Bible.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
The Jesus that Christians believe in is the Jesus of Paul. The centerpiece of Christian creedal doctrine, that of Redemption, is something of which Jesus himself knew nothing; and it goes back to Paul.
“That the figure of the Nazarene, as delivered to us in Mark’s Gospel, is decisively different from the pre-existent risen Christ proclaimed by Paul, is something long recognized by thinkers like Kant, Fichte, Schelling, Herder and Goethe, to mention only a few. The distinction between ‘the religion of Christ’ and ‘the Christian religion’ goes back to Lessing. Critical theological research has now disputed the idea of an uninterrupted chain of historical succession: Luther’s belief that at all times a small handful of true Christians preserved the true apostolic faith. Walter Bauer (226) and Martin Werner (227) have brought evidence that there was conflict from the outset about the central questions of dogma. It has become clear that the beliefs of those who had seen and heard Jesus in the flesh --- the disciples and the original community--- were at odds to an extraordinary degree with the teaching of Paul, who claimed to have been not only called by a vision but instructed by the heavenly Christ. The conflict at Antioch between the apostles Peter and Paul, far more embittered as research has shown (228) than the Bible allows us to see, was the most fateful split in Christianity, which in the Acts of the Apostles was ‘theologically camouflaged’. (229)
Paul, who had never seen Jesus, showed great reserve towards the Palestinian traditions regarding Jesus’ life. (230) The historical Jesus and his earthly life are without significance for Paul. In all his epistles the name ‘Jesus’ occurs only 15 times, the title ‘Christ’ 378 times. In Jesus’s actual teaching he shows extraordinarily little interest. It is disputed whether in all his epistles he makes two, three or four references to sayings by Jesus. (231) It is not Jesus’ teaching, which he cannot himself have heard at all (short of hearing it in a vision), that is central to his own mission, but the person of the Redeemer and His death on the Cross.
Jesus, who never claimed religious worship for himself was not worshipped in the original community, is for Paul the pre-existent risen Christ….
This was the ‘Fall’ of Christianity: that Paul with his ‘Gospel’, which became the core of Christian dogma formation, conquered the world, (237) while the historic basis of Christianity was declared a heresy….
Pauline heresy served as the basis for Christian orthodoxy, and the legitimate Church was outlawed as heretical’. (240) The ‘small handful of true Christians’ was Nazarene Christianity, which was already extinct in the fourth century……
The centerpiece then, of Christian creedal doctrine, that of Redemption, is something of which—in the judgment of the theologian E. Grimm (244) --- Jesus himself knew nothing; and it goes back to Paul. “
(Udo Schaefer, Light Shineth in Darkness, Studies in revelation after Christ )
How Paul changed the course of Christianity
This is an excerpt from the book entitled The Light Shineth in Darkness, Studies in revelation after Christ by Udo Schaefer. This section explains how Paul changed the Christianity of Jesus. It is important to note that the views expressed by this author reflect his individual perspective and...
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There is no 'Jesus of the Baha'i Faith' but what Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha wrote about Jesus is aligned with the historic Jesus, not the false Christ that Paul created. Baha'is believe in the teachings of Jesus as well as the cross sacrifice, we just don't believe in the doctrines of the Church.
So if you assume it's accurate: who cares. It describes a ritual sacrifice that was practiced thousands of years ago during an age when sacrifices of one sort or another including human sacrifice was basically world-wide. The only reason I'd even mention it in a debate was if someone asserted we need to follow everything in the Bible literally including animal sacrifice.
God, Jehova God, Yhwh, same same. Yes these deeds are attributed directly to God, not to a people, not to individuals.
Jehovah didn't write the Bible. Unknown people did.
First, the whole story is a myth. There were not large numbers of Israelites in Egypt. Second, there is no evidence these plagues ever occurred, and events that cataclysmic would be hard to hide. Finally, they didn't go through the red sea. The Bible does not say red sea.
Staffs don't turn into snakes. You do realize this is fantastic folklore, I hope. You'll find these kinds of ridiculous stories in lots of religious mythology.
The whole story's fantasy. There were no Israelites. There was no killing. There is no objective evidence for any of it. It's all made up.
I'm well aware of the controversy.
I see no justice in any of these stories. There is no consideration of human rights. We are essentially, livestock or shelf pets, to be toyed with for God's amusement.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Then it's a good thing they are not true.