If Jesus isn't the only way to come to God...

[B-psychedelic]

God could have designed a sinless world.
Rules were broken? What rules? These rules are mythology; part of a larger, mythological narrative of God, intentional design and purpose. There is no evidence of any of this.

1. As far as i can tell, if you read those so called mythological narratives, you would know the rules stipulated in them.
2. As to the evidence of God's existence, does this universe have a cause?
a) If yes, What or Who caused it
b) If the universe was created then the creator should exist outside time and space (also meaning eternal)
c) There is no evidence of something coming out of nothing, Rationality comes out of the rational, and irrationality comes out of the irrational hence the order and design of this universe don't come from Chaos

It is therefore absurd to walk into the middle of the desert, seeing a build structure fully furnished and claim it came to be by accident, that is intellectual dishonesty.

 

[Trailblazer]

Without Christ Jesus, there's no Christianity because he is the Epicenter of the faith, on that note;

That goes without saying. I was not suggesting being without Jesus.

1. If there's another way to God other than Christ Jesus, then it would be considered provided it given criteria is humanly possible to achieve.

I'm not sure what you mean.

2. If there is another way to God otherwise then Jesus would be a liar and can not be the savior.

No, not really.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

I believe that verse applied to the Christian dispensation. There is no reason to think it applies to all of time.
Jesus was the only way to God during the Christian dispensation since that was by arrangement by God.

Dispensation

- an appointment, arrangement, or favor, as by God.
- a divinely appointed order or age:

e.g. the old Mosaic, or Jewish, dispensation; the new gospel, or Christian, dispensation.

Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words

The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years!

www.dictionary.com

If Jesus had meant what He said to apply to all of time, He would have said:

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man will ever come unto the Father, but by me.

Jesus can be a savior even if He is not the only way to God. A savior fulfills a particular purpose and once that purpose is fulfilled then it is time for humanity to move on and fulfill other purposes. This is related to the purpose of religion.

“And now concerning thy question regarding the nature of religion. Know thou that they who are truly wise have likened the world unto the human temple. As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 77-82

Jesus fulfilled His purpose here on earth, which was to bear witness unto the truth about God:

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

That is why Jesus said that His work was finished here.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.


In the OP, I asked:
If Jesus isn't the only way to come to God that would mean that Christianity is not the only true religion.
In that case, I have two questions:

1) How would that make Christianity any less of a true religion?
2) How would that make Jesus any less of a Savior?

In other words, why can't Christianity be true and other religions also be true?
Why can't Jesus be a savior even if other religions are true?

Christianity 'as believed by Christians' cannot be true if other religions are true since Christians believe that Christianity is the only true religion, but that does not mean that God intended for Christianity to be the only true religion.

 

[CG Didymus]

Without Christ Jesus, there's no Christianity because he is the Epicenter of the faith, on that note;
1. If there's another way to God other than Christ Jesus, then it would be considered provided it given criteria is humanly possible to achieve.
2. If there is another way to God otherwise then Jesus would be a liar and can not be the savior.
NB: all answers are based on the condition stated above.

She is a Baha'i. In her beliefs Jesus can't be the only way. Each and every religion has to have a way. Except when Hindus say the way is through many live times of being reincarnated, that is not a way for Baha'is.

When Christians say that it is only through Jesus, because he was the only one that could pay for the sins of the world. He was the perfect sacrifice. And paid the penalty once and for all... that we could never be good enough to pay for our own sins. That we are saved through grace and not by works. All those things that make Jesus the only way are changed around a little bit.

For a Baha'i, we are not tainted with any inherited sin from Adam. We are born perfect, with a clean slate. It is our works, our good deeds that earn us a spot closer or further from God depending how good or bad we were.

Anything that a Christian believes that makes Jesus the only way... is explained away. Anything that Christians believe that makes Jesus God is explained away. And they might be right. That is... they might be right that Jesus is not the only way. But, to me, are any of the religions perfectly right in what they believe?

Anybody in any religion can easily find contradictions and things that they don't believe are true in the religions of others. But when it comes to their religion, they can easily find a reasonable explanation as to why those things sound like contradictions.

The simplest way to explain this for me is to say that everybody is taught to believe certain things. Their beliefs are working for them and, therefore, seem true. But anybody, with any belief can do that. It makes some people say that there are many paths to God. But are there? It could be that there are many paths that claim to be leading to a God. Who knows?

For some, Jesus is the truth. There is no other way. For others, they poke enough holes into the beliefs of those Christians to make Jesus just one of many ways. Others poke holes in all the religions and question if there even is a God. And poking holes in religions, isn't that hard to do.

 

[Trailblazer]

True. Who would know better about a product that one has himself created? He wanted it that way. Or otherwise his engineering was faulty. And of this faulty creation, he said it was good. What would you say of a company who claims that their car is good, and this turns out to be rubbish when the car is used.

No, God did not want humans to choose to follow their lower material nature. If God had wanted that then God would not have told them through the Messengers to follow their higher spiritual nature.

Blaming God for human choices is just about the most illogical thing I can think of. That is called passing the buck.

 

[Jimmy]

There is only one mediator between God and humanity though. Call him Jesus, call him whatever you like.

 

[Nakosis]

Christians believe that Jesus is the only way to come to God, and the only mediator between God and man, making Christianity the only true religion. This belief is based upon the following Bible verses.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Jesus did not say that He was the only way to come to the Father for all of time, but that is what Christians believe. However, that makes no sense because we know that before Jesus walked the earth the Jews came to God by way of Moses, so why would Jesus suddenly become the only way for all time? Why couldn't Muslims come to God by way of Muhammad and Baha'is by way of Baha'u'llah, at a later time in history?

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Before Jesus walked the earth, Moses was a mediator between God and men, so why couldn't Muslims come to God by way of yet another mediator, Muhammad, and Baha'is by way of yet another mediator, Baha'u'llah?



This post is about if Jesus isn't the only way to come to God.

If Jesus isn't the only way to come to God that would mean that Christianity is not the only true religion.
In that case, I have two questions:

1) How would that make Christianity any less of a true religion?
2) How would that make Jesus any less of a Savior?

These questions are mainly directed at Christians, although anyone is welcome to answer them.

Thanks, Trailblazer

I kind of always felt that Jesus came for the folks at the bottom of the barrel. The people who were completely lost causes. Folks who otherwise had very little hope of getting into heaven. The majority of people living decent lives would have no problem entering Heaven. They didn't need saving.

Christian just starting seeing the rest of the world through self-incriminating eyes. They saw everyone as sinful as themselves so went about trying to convince everyone else of it.

 

[CG Didymus]

Who would know better about a product that one has himself created? He wanted it that way.

God could have designed a sinless world.

Since the world is this way... how do religions explain it? Somehow, they have to come up with a reason why a perfect, loving God would have done this.

Ah, freewill. But some religions say God did make the world perfect, but then Adam sinned, and God cursed it. Oh yeah, and Satan was part of that plan also. He was here making sure people would screw things up.

In the end, some religions believe that the world will be perfect. And there will be no more sin. Satan and evil people will be done away with. Really? Why then didn't God just do that in the first place?

I know, I know, he wanted to give people the chance to freely choose to believe in him. And when most of the people don't, he wanted to show them what happens to people that don't obey him.

Yeah, great story. Makes all kinds of sense... to people 2000 years ago. And, I guess, some people even today.

 

[Trailblazer]

There is only one mediator between God and humanity though. Call him Jesus, call him whatever you like.

There is only one mediator between God and humanity in every age and dispensation, according to my beliefs.

In the context of the following passage, the City of God is the Revelation of God vouchsafed from God to humanity.

“They that valiantly labor in quest of God, will, when once they have renounced all else but Him, be so attached and wedded unto that City, that a moment’s separation from it would to them be unthinkable. They will hearken unto infallible proofs from the Hyacinth of that assembly, and will receive the surest testimonies from the beauty of its Rose, and the melody of its Nightingale. Once in about a thousand years shall this City be renewed and readorned….

That City is none other than the Word of God revealed in every age and dispensation. In the days of Moses it was the Pentateuch; in the days of Jesus, the Gospel; in the days of Muhammad, the Messenger of God, the Qur’án; in this day, the Bayán; and in the Dispensation of Him Whom God will make manifest, His own Book—the Book unto which all the Books of former Dispensations must needs be referred, the Book that standeth amongst them all transcendent and supreme.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 264-270

 

[Jimmy]

There is only one mediator between God and humanity in every age and dispensation, according to my beliefs.

In the context of the following passage, the City of God is the Revelation of God vouchsafed from God to humanity.

“They that valiantly labor in quest of God, will, when once they have renounced all else but Him, be so attached and wedded unto that City, that a moment’s separation from it would to them be unthinkable. They will hearken unto infallible proofs from the Hyacinth of that assembly, and will receive the surest testimonies from the beauty of its Rose, and the melody of its Nightingale. Once in about a thousand years shall this City be renewed and readorned….

That City is none other than the Word of God revealed in every age and dispensation. In the days of Moses it was the Pentateuch; in the days of Jesus, the Gospel; in the days of Muhammad, the Messenger of God, the Qur’án; in this day, the Bayán; and in the Dispensation of Him Whom God will make manifest, His own Book—the Book unto which all the Books of former Dispensations must needs be referred, the Book that standeth amongst them all transcendent and supreme.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 264-270

There’s only one age in my opinion. The age of this reality right now.

 

[Spice]

There is only one mediator between God and humanity though. Call him Jesus, call him whatever you like.

Let's call him Christ, as that is a title, rather than a name.

 

[Jimmy]

Let's call him Christ, as that is a title, rather than a name.

Sounds good, but he does have a name though.

 

[Trailblazer]

I kind of always felt that Jesus came for the folks at the bottom of the barrel. The people who were completely lost causes. Folks who otherwise had very little hope of getting into heaven. The majority of people living decent lives would have no problem entering Heaven. They didn't need saving.

I believe that Jesus came for everyone, not only the lost.

I don't believe anyone needs saving. Saved from what?
Jesus did not talk about us needing to be saved, that is a Christian doctrine, since Christians believe we all need to be saved from the original sin.

Christian just starting seeing the rest of the world through self-incriminating eyes. They saw everyone as sinful as themselves so went about trying to convince everyone else of it.

Yes, I believe that is the case. Christians believe we are all tainted with the original sin of Adam and Eve, so they believe everyone is sinful.

 

[sun rise]

God is a creation of human imagination, mostly of greedy and evil shamans (messenger is a synonym for that).

I don't accept your absolutist position. But it's true: from the Jewish Talmud: "We don’t see things as they are; we see things as we are."

 

[CG Didymus]

Without Christ Jesus, there's no Christianity because he is the Epicenter of the faith, on that note;
1. If there's another way to God other than Christ Jesus, then it would be considered provided it given criteria is humanly possible to achieve.
2. If there is another way to God otherwise then Jesus would be a liar and can not be the savior.
NB: all answers are based on the condition stated above.

Going by the OP... is there a way that Jesus could be only one of the ways to God?

Again, this thread is from a Baha'i. Baha'is believe that there have been several messengers/manifestations of God.... That all the major religions are from that one God. Although they believe that the original teachings have been distorted or lost, they believe that all the major religions are true.

Therefore, Jesus in not the only way. Any Christian beliefs that make him the only way, and make him God, are somehow wrong and have been misinterpreted.

Some of us here have been arguing/debating with Baha'is for years. And some of the complaints we have about the Baha'i Faith, we also hold against Christianity.

We all know why you believe like you do. And we all know that you believe it without a doubt. But all Christians are different. Just how strongly do you believe in the Bible and the NT as being the literal, infallible, inerrant Word of God?

An easy one is to say you believe in creation and not evolution. But do you believe in a young Earth and a 6-day creation?

I'd suppose that most Christians would say they believe in the miracles in the Bible. But all of them? One that I ask about is when Moses' staff turned into a snake and ate the Pharaoh's snake.

But then talking about snakes... In Mark chapter 16 it has Jesus saying that people will drink poison and handle snakes and not be harmed. Some Christians believe that literally and have died drinking poison and handling rattlesnakes. So, how far should Christians take their literalism?

Anyway, to make things fit their beliefs, Baha'is don't take the Bible that literally. They believe in a type of evolution. And believe their prophet, Baha'u'llah, is the return of Christ. I'm looking forward to your comments and debates with the Baha'is and the rest of us here. Glad you joined.

 

[Valjean]

In your profile it says Vedanta(reform). I know some Hindus don't believe in God, are you one of those? Saying "Surely God would have the knowledge and means to communicate directly and clearly to us." is typical of atheists. I can't count how many times I've heard that from atheists. My experience tells me it is fruitless to try to try to counter that, so I won't try.

It's atheism asking questions from a theist perspective. The god of the Abrahamics has a personality, values, desires, and a relationship with mankind; seems quite obsessed with mankind, as a matter of fact.

 

[B-psychedelic]

Going by the OP... is there a way that Jesus could be only one of the ways to God?

Again, this thread is from a Baha'i. Baha'is believe that there have been several messengers/manifestations of God.... That all the major religions are from that one God. Although they believe that the original teachings have been distorted or lost, they believe that all the major religions are true.

Therefore, Jesus in not the only way. Any Christian beliefs that make him the only way, and make him God, are somehow wrong and have been misinterpreted.

Some of us here have been arguing/debating with Baha'is for years. And some of the complaints we have about the Baha'i Faith, we also hold against Christianity.

We all know why you believe like you do. And we all know that you believe it without a doubt. But all Christians are different. Just how strongly do you believe in the Bible and the NT as being the literal, infallible, inerrant Word of God?

An easy one is to say you believe in creation and not evolution. But do you believe in a young Earth and a 6-day creation?

I'd suppose that most Christians would say they believe in the miracles in the Bible. But all of them? One that I ask about is when Moses' staff turned into a snake and ate the Pharaoh's snake.

But then talking about snakes... In Mark chapter 16 it has Jesus saying that people will drink poison and handle snakes and not be harmed. Some Christians believe that literally and have died drinking poison and handling rattlesnakes. So, how far should Christians take their literalism?

Anyway, to make things fit their beliefs, Baha'is don't take the Bible that literally. They believe in a type of evolution. And believe their prophet, Baha'u'llah, is the return of Christ. I'm looking forward to your comments and debates with the Baha'is and the rest of us here. Glad you joined.

So again, I was speaking on the premise 'if there is another way aside from Christ Jesus'
1. I continue, if there was another way to God that I know to be true, I wouldn't be a Christian.
2. Historically, the gospels have been proven reliable, if there are other authentic findings to disproof of that then I'm ready to learn.
and based on the authority of the Bible, John 14:6 says, "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father but by me."

Now based on this bold claim of Jesus Christ, Mention any proven document that captures those personalities making a claim like that. Kindly provide that evidence and we can debate

 

[Trailblazer]

It's atheism asking questions from a theist perspective. The god of the Abrahamics has a personality, values, desires, and a relationship with mankind; seems quite obsessed with mankind, as a matter of fact.

Only the Bible God has all of that. because they turned God into a person. The God of the Baha'i Faith doesn't have all that.

 

[Trailblazer]

So again, I was speaking on the premise 'if there is another way aside from Christ Jesus'
1. I continue, if there was another way to God that I know to be true, I wouldn't be a Christian.
2. Historically, the gospels have been proven reliable, if there are other authentic findings to disproof of that then I'm ready to learn.

I beg to differ that the gospels are reliable and they are certainly not authentic since Jesus did not write them. In fact, the gospel authors did not even know Jesus. For example, the gospel according to Matthew is not written by Matthew.

The gospel is traditionally attributed to the Apostle Matthew. According to predominant scholarly views, it was written in the last quarter of the first century by an anonymous Jew familiar with technical legal aspects of scripture.
Gospel of Matthew - Wikipedia

and based on the authority of the Bible, John 14:6 says, "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father but by me."

Eighty-two percent of the words ascribed to Jesus in the gospels were not actually spoken by him, according to the Jesus Seminar. How do scholars account for this pronounced discrepancy?

Jesus Seminar Phase 1: Sayings of Jesus | Westar Institute

The original Jesus Seminar (Sayings) is Westar’s first and best-known project. What did Jesus really say? The findings of the seminar sparked widespread debate and controversy. Its major book is The Five Gospels.

www.westarinstitute.org

Now based on this bold claim of Jesus Christ, Mention any proven document that captures those personalities making a claim like that. Kindly provide that evidence and we can debate

I can present many documents that make a similar claim to be the way for this day and age in the Writings of Baha'u'llah. For example:

“The Book of God is wide open, and His Word is summoning mankind unto Him. No more than a mere handful, however, hath been found willing to cleave to His Cause, or to become the instruments for its promotion. These few have been endued with the Divine Elixir that can, alone, transmute into purest gold the dross of the world, and have been empowered to administer the infallible remedy for all the ills that afflict the children of men. No man can obtain everlasting life, unless he embraceth the truth of this inestimable, this wondrous, and sublime Revelation.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 183-184

 

[CG Didymus]

So again, I was speaking on the premise 'if there is another way aside from Christ Jesus'
1. I continue, if there was another way to God that I know to be true, I wouldn't be a Christian.
2. Historically, the gospels have been proven reliable, if there are other authentic findings to disproof of that then I'm ready to learn.
and based on the authority of the Bible, John 14:6 says, "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father but by me."

Now based on this bold claim of Jesus Christ, Mention any proven document that captures those personalities making a claim like that. Kindly provide that evidence and we can debate

Lots of us have tried Christianity. We tried to believe, but, at some point, just couldn't do it anymore. Like I said, how far and how literal do you want to and need to take things?

Young Earthers, I think is an extreme view. But, unless a Christian takes that view, they are already conceding that the Bible isn't literal. There is room and a need to interpret somethings a little looser. Was it a 24-hour day, or a million-year day?

But I think most all Born-Again Christians believe in creation and not evolution. Great thing to debate about. But who cares? Each side is just preaching to the choir.

But did creation happen exactly how it is described in the Bible? I really, really doubt it. Do I know enough to debate the issue with a Christian? No. I don't care enough about it.

Same with the Flood... to believe the Bible literally means that it happened just a few thousand years ago. Believers have their proofs. Non-believers have their proofs. But who cares. It proves nothing to the other side. One side needs to "prove" it to support their beliefs in God and the Bible. The other side needs to "prove" that the Bible isn't accurate.

But let's move on to Jesus... For some Christians, Adam's fall, Satan and Jesus has to be exactly how the Bible and the NT says. But is it really? No, I don't think so. Verses have to be found and interpreted in a way to support those beliefs.

For me, the pieces leading up to the need for Jesus to sacrifice himself sound stupid... meaning they sound like myth. Adam sinned, caused the fall, people then inherited a sin nature from him. The Law was given, the people couldn't obey it perfectly, therefore... a person could not ever be good enough by trying to obey the law. What was needed was a perfect sacrifice, God's very own son, Jesus.

To me, a great myth. To some Christians the absolute truth. Where's the debate going to go? Nowhere. Can I prove anything? No. But what can a believer prove?

All you can do is say why you believe and keep believing. For you, and any other believer in any other religion, the best thing I think you can do to prove your religion is true is live it.

Do that and show the love of the God you believe in by the way you talk and treat the other people here on the forum, and I'll be impressed.

Of course, since I'm not a believer, don't expect me to do the same. I'll try. But I'm just a skeptical, doubter of most all religions. And sometimes... my say things that aren't so nice.

 

[B-psychedelic]

Lots of us have tried Christianity. We tried to believe, but, at some point, just couldn't do it anymore. Like I said, how far and how literal do you want to and need to take things?

Young Earthers, I think is an extreme view. But, unless a Christian takes that view, they are already conceding that the Bible isn't literal. There is room and a need to interpret somethings a little looser. Was it a 24-hour day, or a million-year day?

But I think most all Born-Again Christians believe in creation and not evolution. Great thing to debate about. But who cares? Each side is just preaching to the choir.

But did creation happen exactly how it is described in the Bible? I really, really doubt it. Do I know enough to debate the issue with a Christian? No. I don't care enough about it.

Same with the Flood... to believe the Bible literally means that it happened just a few thousand years ago. Believers have their proofs. Non-believers have their proofs. But who cares. It proves nothing to the other side. One side needs to "prove" it to support their beliefs in God and the Bible. The other side needs to "prove" that the Bible isn't accurate.

But let's move on to Jesus... For some Christians, Adam's fall, Satan and Jesus has to be exactly how the Bible and the NT says. But is it really? No, I don't think so. Verses have to be found and interpreted in a way to support those beliefs.

For me, the pieces leading up to the need for Jesus to sacrifice himself sound stupid... meaning they sound like myth. Adam sinned, caused the fall, people then inherited a sin nature from him. The Law was given, the people couldn't obey it perfectly, therefore... a person could not ever be good enough by trying to obey the law. What was needed was a perfect sacrifice, God's very own son, Jesus.

To me, a great myth. To some Christians the absolute truth. Where's the debate going to go? Nowhere. Can I prove anything? No. But what can a believer prove?

All you can do is say why you believe and keep believing. For you, and any other believer in any other religion, the best thing I think you can do to prove your religion is true is live it.

Do that and show the love of the God you believe in by the way you talk and treat the other people here on the forum, and I'll be impressed.

Of course, since I'm not a believer, don't expect me to do the same. I'll try. But I'm just a skeptical, doubter of most all religions. And sometimes... my say things that aren't so nice.

So this is where intellectual dishonesty plays a role;

1. The Bible we know comes from the Greek word Biblia Which means books therefore, The Bible is a library of various scriptures. you should know if you were an actual born-again Christian​

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2. Since the Bible is a collection of books, It has different literary writing styles, and would be immature to read poetry material as historic material or treat a historic piece as a philosophic piece or just spiritual.​

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3. Every true Christian supports the claim that the Bible is inspired by God, whilst allowing the writers to relay the message in a style common to the people of their time. So recipient of the revelation or is inspired is a musician, they were allowed to do so through music. if they were lame men to the simplest understanding. if you wanted I could go on and on.​

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Now my question is, do you treat a Shakespearean piece as a historic book? in other words do you treat all literary style the same?​

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