If Jesus isn't the only way to come to God...

[Hockeycowboy]

What about people who don't enjoy life?

Yes, I was thinking about you when I wrote this, but you are one of the few exceptions …. You have found very little enjoyment in life. I remember that’s what you have said.
Why is that? Do you experience a lot of physical pain? Emotional pain?

I know you enjoy cats.

Does everything have to be deduced from what the Bible says?

That was my question to Valjean. My post was to him, and I specifically worded it & bolded it that way.
Did he get these ideas, that ‘God is a monster’, from the Bible, is what I was asking.

Some of us can think for ourselves.

Yeah, how’s that working out for mankind? There’s more division and polemic ideologies between humans, than ever before!

You yourself have implied that the Bible’s / God’s guidelines on sex are beneficial for society.
And when you deeply think about it, you can see the benefits that come from exercising restraint in sexual matters & adhering to it.
But many don’t really think about it deeply… they want what they want, and follow their feelings.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

So, he gave his people over 600 laws in which he got them to promise to obey... knowing they wouldn't and couldn't obey them.

You know, Paul said something similar.
In the books of Galatians & Hebrews, the apostle contrasted the Law given to the Israelites, with Jesus’ sacrifice:
The Mosaic Law thoroughly demonstrated mankind’s need for a ransom. A perfect Law, it exposed the inability of sinful humans to completely follow it. The Law thus served “to make transgressions manifest, until the offspring should arrive to whom the promise had been made.” (Galatians 3:19) By means of animal sacrifices, the Law offered provisional atonement for sins. But since, as Paul wrote, “it is not possible for the blood of bulls and of goats to take sins away,” these sacrifices only foreshadowed Christ’s ransom sacrifice. (Hebrews 10:1-4) So then, for faithful Jews that covenant became a “guardian leading to Christ.” — Galatians 3:24

 

[Hockeycowboy]

It's all Biblically derived.

(I know you wrote other things in your post…. I will try to get to those, but I wanted to address this first. Because your response, “It’s all Biblically derived”, was in reply to my comment which I bolded.)
I wanted to highlight that, because here is a book that claims to be from our Creator, who wants us to love Him, right? Yet He tells us about some of His actions that seem very questionable! In that very book! He doesn’t hide anything!
That’s called being candid.

(IOW, you wouldn’t have an opinion that the ‘God of the Bible is a monster’, if those events hadn’t been recorded in the very Bible itself. You’d have no idea of it.)


But (as @CG Didymus says) wait! You say “The Creator isn’t the author of the Bible; it was written by people.”
Well then, we have the same issue!
The writers of those books were very candid about their own faults and inadequacies. And writing about the failures of the entire nation of Israel!
Other nations of that era hid their failures; the Israelites were very open about theirs.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Family life has been falling apart in West and not in East. What is wrong there?

You’re probably right, to a degree…family life has really been falling apart everywhere; but I’ll say “more so” in the West.

And I’ll say this: Christendom has been more reprehensible than many other religions….claiming to follow the “Prince of Peace” (who clearly commanded His followers to “love one another”, and be “not of / no part of this world -John 15:12,19), yet have joined with the world & engaged in its bloodiest wars. Grief, Christendom has even started their own! (OK, now I’ve just made a whole bunch of enemies.)
Is that the Bible’s / Jesus’ fault?



What I’m trying to say, is, Christianity was attacked by this world’s Ruler (John 12:31;14:30) at the moment it began; and once all the Apostles were dead, apostate leaders started to get a firmer hold.

Don't blame humans for what God did. He created us imperfect and junked us on Earth.

That’s not what the Bible implies. Suffice it to say that the Bible recods that A&E’s immediate descendants, through several generations, lived for centuries! Why? Because those first generations were genetically closer to A&E’s perfection. Lifespans gradually diminished, though, the more distant from A&E they became.

Humans gaining everlasting life again, is one of the reasons Jesus came.



The Earth btw is still a wonderful home, even tho Jehovah, for the most part, has removed His protection & stayed out of humanaffairs. And the planet’s, too. But this situation is only temporary …. Until the issues of sovereignty, raised in Genesis 3, are resolved.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Ok, but is that a problem? Anybody is welcome to test my beliefs and if they are found lacking then I can go forward and develop. I am fully aware that I might get things wrong, why should an alternative view worry me?

I have met many people who will not discuss their beliefs, as if they are some precious thing that must never be sullied. It is not a practice that I respect.

Well, you’ve got my respect.

Take care, my cousin.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, I was thinking about you when I wrote this, but you are one of the few exceptions …. You have found very little enjoyment in life. I remember that’s what you have said.
Why is that? Do you experience a lot of physical pain? Emotional pain?

I know you enjoy cats.

It is not that I have found little enjoyment, it is that I have endured more suffering than enjoyment.
It has been emotional pain, not physical pain. I have endured far too many losses and one can only take so much grief.

Yes, I enjoy my cats but other than the cats and other animals and nature I don't have much that I enjoy, not that it really matters since enjoyment is not the purpose of life. It is just hard to live in a society where everyone except me seems to be enjoying themselves.

Am I really an exception? Do most people enjoy life? A certain number of people do, but not everyone. Many people suffer even if you do not realize that since they don't wear that on their sleeves.

Yeah, how’s that working out for mankind? There’s more division and polemic ideologies between humans, than ever before!

The Bible has been available for people to read for 600 years. How is believing in the Bible working out for mankind?

You yourself have implied that the Bible’s / God’s guidelines on sex are beneficial for society.
And when you deeply think about it, you can see the benefits that come from exercising restraint in sexual matters & adhering to it.
But many don’t really think about it deeply… they want what they want, and follow their feelings.

Sure, I believe those guidelines are beneficial for society, but how many Christians follow the guidelines in the Bible regarding sexual behavior?
I would say it is only a small minority.

 

[1213]

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Jesus did not say that He was the only way to come to the Father for all of time, although that is what Christians believe.

All people means all people. Not just some people at some point of time.

Jesus does not determine who gets eternal life. We determine that by our beliefs and actions.

Jesus has said,
These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Matt. 25:46
You may be able to choose are you righteous, but that the eternal life is for righteous, is not your decision.

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. and gave us free will and some of us choose to be bad.
How could it possibly be God's fault if people choose to commit a heinous murder?

Why did he give free-will to choose evil. He knew that some people will choose. Why did he not remove this option to choose bad from free-will.
Deficient engineering. Design fault. And he said we are good.

 

[Aupmanyav]

That’s not what the Bible implies. Suffice it to say that the Bible recods that A&E’s immediate descendants, through several generations, lived for centuries! Why? Because those first generations were genetically closer to A&E’s perfection. Lifespans gradually diminished, though, the more distant from A&E they became.

Humans gaining everlasting life again, is one of the reasons Jesus came.

The Earth btw is still a wonderful home, even tho Jehovah, for the most part, has removed His protection & stayed out of human affairs. And the planet’s, too. But this situation is only temporary …. Until the issues of sovereignty, raised in Genesis 3, are resolved.

It hardly suffices, though you have nice stories. We have better. You say children of A and E lived long. What evidence do you have for it except Bible? In our stories, we have seven immortals who never died.

Yeah, sure, Hindus too can get everlasting life in heaven if their actions have been good, and we do not restrict this facility just to Hindus, but keep it open. Anyone with good deeds will get everlasting life. He may belong to any religion, worship any God or Goddess or be of no religion and may not worship any God at all. A persons actions are the only measure.

Earth is nice, it was nicer, may not be nice in future because of climate meltdown. But not just Earth, all things are temporary and change, even the universe.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The Bible has been available for people to read for 600 years. How is believing in the Bible working out for mankind?

Sure, I believe those guidelines are beneficial for society, but how many Christians follow the guidelines in the Bible regarding sexual behavior?
I would say it is only a small minority.

Well, Kitab-e-Aqdas has been available for upward of 100 years, how a minuscule number of people believing in the Kitab is working out for mankind?
Any less wars? More peace? More brotherhood? Two World Wars and a thousand others.
In any religion the number of people who follow the guidelines of their religion is always very small. Mathew 7.21-23.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Well, Kitab-e-Aqdas has been available for upward of 100 years, how a minuscule number of people believing in the Kitab is working out for mankind?
Any less wars? More peace? More brotherhood? Two World Wars and a thousand others.
In any religion the number of people who follow the guidelines of their religion is always very small. Mathew 7.21-23.

Those who want peace and unity have united together and live in peace and harmony without wars or bloodshed. But those who don’t care or don’t see any reason to unite all they inherit is a world of conflict and wars. Yes Baha’u’llah has brought together those who want to be united and live in peace but as to those that don’t that is their choice. It’s peoples choice to either reconcile their differences and live in harmony or go on hating and killing. No one or any religion can force people to make the choice for unity and brotherhood.

 

[PearlSeeker]

His should have been and remained solely a bhakti movement. But egotistical and controlling “church fathers”, beginning with Paul (whom I refuse to refer to as Saint) completely bastardized his work.

What's "egotistical and controlling" about Paul and the church fathers?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Those who want peace and unity have united together and live in peace and harmony without wars or bloodshed. But those who don’t care or don’t see any reason to unite all they inherit is a world of conflict and wars. Yes Baha’u’llah has brought together those who want to be united and live in peace but as to those that don’t that is their choice. It’s peoples choice to either reconcile their differences and live in harmony or go on hating and killing. No one or any religion can force people to make the choice for unity and brotherhood.

We were not created for that, my friend. God gave us the free-will to choose evil.

 

[sun rise]

Why did he give free-will to choose evil. He knew that some people will choose. Why did he not remove this option to choose bad from free-will.
Deficient engineering. Design fault. And he said we are good.

What is evil? Of course its not eating the brains of those conquered in battle, not sacrificing children to the gods, allowing women to wear pants and women who don't wear burkas. Also, of course, music is evil. What we consider evil today was once considered good. And of course "greed is good" (recently and still today).

From an advaita perspective, good/evil is just one of an infinite number of bipolar constructs our brains focus on.

 

[CG Didymus]

This system seems to invite ambitious charlatans. How does one choose among them? How does one test their claims?
Surely God would have the knowledge and means to communicate directly and clearly to us.

The greatest charlatans would be false prophets. And that is what we have to consider when we look at the claims of Baha'u'llah. He says to investigate on our own and to use logic and reasoning. Yet, we some of us do that and come to the conclusion that the Baha'i Faith is wrong, Baha'is tell us we are blind and can't see the truth.

Well, okay... so it's our logic and reasoning that is off? Then what? We shouldn't use our logic and reasoning but theirs?

One thing I complain about all the time is their claim that Jesus didn't physically rise from the dead. But in one verse Jesus says to touch him and see that it is him and he is not a ghost. Now it's not like I believe it. But I do believe that is what the gospel writer intended... to make the claim that Jesus had come back to life.

Yet, the Baha'is claim that he didn't come back to life. Which is fine... if they didn't claim to believe in the Bible and the NT. Ah, but they make an adjustment... they say that it's not "literally" true, but symbolically true. That Jesus rose "spiritually."

Whatever... By the time they are done, the only thing true, is what they say is true. And makes it hard to "test" the validity of what they say when nothing else is true but what they say.

 

[Spice]

What's "egotistical and controlling" about Paul and the church fathers?

Let's just start with what some denominations still hold to:
For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.
As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says.
1 Corinthians 14:33,34

 

[CG Didymus]

That’s true … it was a message for the time and place. I don’t think God likes to reinvent the wheel, but rather he just repeats himself

That's one thing I don't quite agree with. The messages, or beliefs, from God, about God and sometimes about several Gods are different enough for me to think that the people in that place and time made up their own concepts about who and what God is.

For example, the Gods of the Egyptians or the Greeks or the Aztecs. Those Gods were the same God that the Jews believed in.

That's one thing I disagree about with the Baha'is. They too easily put all Gods and religions into being one and the same. Of course, since they are very different, they add... in "essence". But some of those religions had human sacrifices. Some had orgies with temple prostitutes. And I think at some point, some of these religions have to be thought of as just being false and manmade.

 

[CG Didymus]

I know a couple of Baha'is that do tend to proselytize, but not all of us. You bash Baha'i often when Baha'is say something.

Ironically, let me paraphrase Abdul Baha'... if a person has a bunch of bad qualities and only one good one... disregard the bad ones and look at that one good one.

What one good thing does Aupmanyav have? Come on, you Baha'is... you must be able to think of one. Come on, think harder.

Okay, I like him because he bashes Baha'is... Oops, maybe that's not a good example.

Actually, seriously... he speaks his mind and doesn't sugar coat it. Maybe, people don't like to hear it... and don't want to hear it. But maybe, at times, people need to hear it.

I think it's bringing awareness to how Baha'is come off to others. "God is real." "God sends messengers." "Baha'u'llah is the return of Krishna." That's kind of preachy. It's implying that what the Baha'is say is the truth. But the Baha'is are telling that to an Atheist Hindu that doesn't believe in messengers, including Krishna.

Where's the common ground? Where's the unity? People like him, and me, are people the Baha'is have got to find a way to show acceptance and respect. Otherwise, Baha'is will be no different than any other religions that claims to "love" all people but, by their actions, are rejecting some people.

And I know it's tough, because from your perspective you feel as though you're being attacked, and your beliefs are being challenged. But, I think, the greater challenge for Baha'is is to show that they can bring peace and unity by showing that they can love and respect those that disagree with them.

Anyway, enough preaching, now back to my normal self... You guys really make me sick the way you think you know it all. Well, let me tell you this... you don't.

 

[CG Didymus]

Let's just start with what some denominations still hold to:
For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.
As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says.
1 Corinthians 14:33,34

It's really surprising how much of Christian doctrines and beliefs come from Paul. And, since he wrote his own stuff, we know what he said, but we don't necessarily know what Jesus said... but are depending on the gospels being accurate.

 

[rocala]

but we don't necessarily know what Jesus said... but are depending on the gospels being accurate.

Actually this is the aspect that I like. I am not interested in the magic and miracles but I like many of the teachings. It then does not matter who wrote them. If they work for me, all is good.