If Jesus isn't the only way to come to God...

[Trailblazer]

This system seems to invite ambitious charlatans. How does one choose among them? How does one test their claims?

“Bahá’u’lláh asked no one to accept His statements and His tokens blindly. On the contrary, He put in the very forefront of His teachings emphatic warnings against blind acceptance of authority, and urged all to open their eyes and ears, and use their own judgement, independently and fearlessly, in order to ascertain the truth. He enjoined the fullest investigation and never concealed Himself, offering, as the supreme proofs of His Prophethood, His words and works and their effects in transforming the lives and characters of men. The tests He proposed are the same as those laid down by His great predecessors. Moses said:—
When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.—Deut. xviii, 22.

Christ put His test just as plainly, and appealed to it in proof of His own claim. He said:—
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. … Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.—Matt. vii, 15–17, 20

In the chapters that follow, we shall endeavor to show whether Bahá’u’lláh’s claim to Prophethood stands or falls by application of these tests: whether the things that He had spoken have followed and come to pass, and whether His fruits have been good or evil; in other words, whether His prophecies are being fulfilled and His ordinances established, and whether His lifework has contributed to the education and upliftment of humanity and the betterment of morals, or the contrary.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, Pages 8-9

Surely God would have the knowledge and means to communicate directly and clearly to us.

God understands humans but humans cannot understand God. If God communicated directly to us we would not have the capacity to understand Him. That is what we need an intermediary. The messengers of God have both a human nature and a divine nature so they can understand both God and humans and communicate back to us what God has communicated to Them.

 

[Spice]

“Bahá’u’lláh asked no one to accept His statements and His tokens blindly. On the contrary, He put in the very forefront of His teachings emphatic warnings against blind acceptance of authority, and urged all to open their eyes and ears, and use their own judgement, independently and fearlessly, in order to ascertain the truth. He enjoined the fullest investigation and never concealed Himself, offering, as the supreme proofs of His Prophethood, His words and works and their effects in transforming the lives and characters of men. The tests He proposed are the same as those laid down by His great predecessors. Moses said:—
When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.—Deut. xviii, 22.

Christ put His test just as plainly, and appealed to it in proof of His own claim. He said:—
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. … Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.—Matt. vii, 15–17, 20

In the chapters that follow, we shall endeavor to show whether Bahá’u’lláh’s claim to Prophethood stands or falls by application of these tests: whether the things that He had spoken have followed and come to pass, and whether His fruits have been good or evil; in other words, whether His prophecies are being fulfilled and His ordinances established, and whether His lifework has contributed to the education and upliftment of humanity and the betterment of morals, or the contrary.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, Pages 8-9

God understands humans but humans cannot understand God. If God communicated directly to us we would not have the capacity to understand Him. That is what we need an intermediary. The messengers of God have both a human nature and a divine nature so they can understand both God and humans and communicate back to us what God has communicated to Them.

Ahhh, but God can do all things. He can speak to us, if we "have ears to hear." The issue is not with God's abilities, but our own. So let's say these messengers are chosen because they are open and willing to hear. We too can hear for ourselves if we become open to it. Do you agree?

 

[1213]

...
Jesus did not say that He was the only way to come to the Father for all of time, but that is what Christians believe. However, that makes no sense because we know that before Jesus walked the earth the Jews came to God by way of Moses, so why would Jesus suddenly become the only way for all time?...

If Jesus isn't the only way to come to God that would mean that Christianity is not the only true religion.
In that case, I have two questions:

1) How would that make Christianity any less of a true religion?
2) How would that make Jesus any less of a Savior?

Then John 14:6 would not be true, and Jesus would not be true and the "religion" would not be true.

I don't think Jesus and Moses are the same. Moses told the message from God, Jesus did also that, but Jesus is also the one who is basically the gatekeeper to God's kingdom, to eternal life with God. Moses doesn't determine who goes to eternal life.

 

[Trailblazer]

Because Christ was always the divine intention from the very beginning. Those who died in the Old Law went to Hades to await their liberation by Christ. As per the creed:

Descendit ad inferos
He descended into Hell​

That is only a Christian belief, yet you are stating it as if it were a fact. I disagree with that belief. Can you prove I am wrong and you are right?

Because Christians believe that both Islam and the Baha'i Faith are false religions.

So what? What people believe does not make that belief true. I believe that much of Christianity as it is believed by Christians is false.

That does not mean Christians cannot hope and pray for the salvation of their non-Christian friends but (orthodox) Christians cannot accept the notion that false religions can be salvific in their own right.

I never claimed that Islam or the Baha'i faith are salvific in their own right, I believe that Jesus conferred personal salvation upon us, but there is much more to a true religion than being saved.

I don't believe in an original sin committed by Adam and Eve in a Garden of Eden. I believe that story is merely an allegory and contains a spiritual message. Below is what I believe.

What Adam did, how he caused the fall of humanity:

“The meaning of the serpent is attachment to the human world. This attachment of the spirit to the human world led the soul and spirit of Adam from the world of freedom to the world of bondage and caused Him to turn from the Kingdom of Unity to the human world. When the soul and spirit of Adam entered the human world, He came out from the paradise of freedom and fell into the world of bondage. From the height of purity and absolute goodness, He entered into the world of good and evil.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 123-124

What Christ did to save humanity:

“…those who turned toward the Word of God and received the profusion of His bounties—were saved from this attachment and sin, obtained everlasting life, were delivered from the chains of bondage, and attained to the world of liberty. They were freed from the vices of the human world, and were blessed by the virtues of the Kingdom. This is the meaning of the words of Christ, “I gave My blood for the life of the world” 6 —that is to say, I have chosen all these troubles, these sufferings, calamities, and even the greatest martyrdom, to attain this object, the remission of sins” Some Answered Questions, p. 125

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 122-126

Unlike the prophets of the Old Law prior to Christ, neither Muhammad nor Baha'u'llah possessed what they claimed to possess. [Divine revelation]. I do not believe Muhammad ever spoke to Saint Gabriel nor do I believe Baha'u'llah was any kind of divine manifestation. Neither can be a mediator because neither were who they claimed to be.

What you or other Christians 'believe' does not matter one iota.
The point is that you do not know if they were who they claimed to be, not any more than you know that Jesus was who He claimed to be.
You simply hold a certain belief. You have no proof that it is true.

Fundamentally, Christianity is a historical claim. That a little over two millennia ago God himself became a man and restored the human race to good standing by his death and resurrection.

More beliefs.

Christ was not a mere prophet nor was Christianity intended to be a mere dispensation to be replaced at some later date.

You do not know that, you only believe that. I believe that Jesus was more than a prophet. I believe He was a Manifestation of God, but that is not the same as being God incarnate.

If Christianity is true then all other religions which claim any kind of salvific power independent of Christ are necessarily false.

Again, I am not claiming that other religions have any salvific power, but that does not mean that they are not true religions. A true religion is a religion that was revealed by God through a Messenger.

My belief is that more than one religion can be true, and there is no logical reason to think otherwise. I believe that religion is renewed in every new age, but that doesn't mean that all the older religions are not also true.

"And now concerning thy question regarding the nature of religion. Know thou that they who are truly wise have likened the world unto the human temple. As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared."

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 77-82

 

[Truthseeker]

Which ones? Hindus that believe in reincarnation, or Buddhists that believe in rebirth? No. Jews that believe Isaac was taken to be sacrificed by his father, Abraham? No. Christians that believe Jesus bodily rose from the dead? No. Sunnis or Shia Muslims? If they believe Muhammad was the last prophet, then I'd say, "no", to them too.

But you know what, I don't even believe in them. So, I don't see it as necessarily a bad thing. I'm okay with religions changing, evolving and improving their beliefs. I could see how they might incorporate some Baha'i beliefs into their religion... but keep most of their core beliefs.

i guess I wasn't clear that when I believe in other religions 'as is", I was talking about the religion as originally revealed. But people in those religions can be a problem. I was clear that Baha'is can be a problem, too.

 

[Trailblazer]

Ahhh, but God can do all things. He can speak to us, if we "have ears to hear." The issue is not with God's abilities, but our own. So let's say these messengers are chosen because they are open and willing to hear. We too can hear for ourselves if we become open to it. Do you agree?

I do not believe that the messengers were chosen by God because they were open and willing to hear, although obviously they had to be open and willing to hear God if they heard God, who I believe spoke to Them through the Holy Spirit. I believe that they were chosen by God because they have a twofold nature, a divine nature and a human nature. I do not believe that we can hear what the messengers of God can hear since we do not possess a twofold nature.

The basis of my belief is what Baha'u'llah wrote:

“Every attempt which, from the beginning that hath no beginning, hath been made to visualize and know God is limited by the exigencies of His own creation—a creation which He, through the operation of His own Will and for the purposes of none other but His own Self, hath called into being. Immeasurably exalted is He above the strivings of human mind to grasp His Essence, or of human tongue to describe His mystery. No tie of direct intercourse can ever bind Him to the things He hath created, nor can the most abstruse and most remote allusions of His creatures do justice to His being. Through His world-pervading Will He hath brought into being all created things. He is and hath ever been veiled in the ancient eternity of His own exalted and indivisible Essence, and will everlastingly continue to remain concealed in His inaccessible majesty and glory.”​

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 318​

​

“And since there can be no tie of direct intercourse to bind the one true God with His creation, and no resemblance whatever can exist between the transient and the Eternal, the contingent and the Absolute, He hath ordained that in every age and dispensation a pure and stainless Soul be made manifest in the kingdoms of earth and heaven. Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself.”​

Gleanings, p. 66​

Incidentally, Baha'is do not believe that the messengers of God can know the Essence of God since that remains forever hidden. All they can do is hear God speak through the Holy Spirit and relay those messages back to us.

 

[Trailblazer]

Then John 14:6 would not be true,

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Jesus did not say that He was the only way to come to the Father for all of time, although that is what Christians believe.

and Jesus would not be true and the "religion" would not be true.

So, if the Christian interpretation of one verse, a verse we don't even know was spoken by Jesus, is not true, then Jesus would not be who He claimed to be in all the other scriptures and the entire religion of Christianity would not be true? That makes no sense to me.

This post gives another interpretation of that verse:

If Jesus isn't the only way to come to God...

You're preaching. Can you back any of this up with objective evidence? Why is your Buible any more authoritative than The Hobbit? You’re asking questions. How can I not? The Hobbit has no information on the subject.

www.religiousforums.com

I don't think Jesus and Moses are the same. Moses told the message from God, Jesus did also that, but Jesus is also the one who is basically the gatekeeper to God's kingdom, to eternal life with God. Moses doesn't determine who goes to eternal life.

I agree. Moses and Jesus are not the same. Moses was a messenger of God, a prophet, as was Jesus, but only Jesus also conferred eternal life.

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”​

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John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.​

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1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.​

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John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.​

Jesus does not determine who gets eternal life. We determine that by our beliefs and actions.

I believe that as the return of Christ, Baha'u'llah also conferred eternal life, although Baha'is also have to believe in Jesus to attain eternal life.

“Incline your ears to the sweet melody of this Prisoner. Arise, and lift up your voices, that haply they that are fast asleep may be awakened. Say: O ye who are as dead! The Hand of Divine bounty proffereth unto you the Water of Life. Hasten and drink your fill. Whoso hath been re-born in this Day, shall never die; whoso remaineth dead, shall never live.” Gleanings, p. 213​

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“He is indeed as one dead who, at the wondrous dawn of this Revelation, hath failed to be quickened by its soul-stirring breeze. He is indeed a captive who hath not recognized the Supreme Redeemer, but hath suffered his soul to be bound, distressed and helpless, in the fetters of his desires.​

​

O My servants! Whoso hath tasted of this Fountain hath attained unto everlasting Life, and whoso hath refused to drink therefrom is even as the dead. Say: O ye workers of iniquity! Covetousness hath hindered you from giving a hearing ear unto the sweet voice of Him Who is the All-Sufficing. Wash it away from your hearts, that His Divine secret may be made known unto you. Behold Him manifest and resplendent as the sun in all its glory.” Gleanings, p. 169​

 

[Truthseeker]

Christ was not a mere prophet nor was Christianity intended to be a mere dispensation to be replaced at some later date. If Christianity is true then all other religions which claim any kind of salvific power independent of Christ are necessarily false.

4:19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.

4:20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.

4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

4:26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

Nowhere in this conversation did Christ correct this woman, after she said "The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet."

In Luke, this happened, and this is better proof that Jesus thought of Him self as a prophet:

4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

4:20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

4:22 And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph's son? 4:23 And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself: whatsoever we have heard done in Capernaum, do also here in thy country.

4:24 And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country.
(King James Bible, Luke)

 

[blü 2]

You could argue they can only do that through the covenant of circumcision and by obeying the law.

Yes, although there seems to be room in there for prodigal sons; and clearly the God of the Tanakh had [his] favorites.

Muslims also don't need an intermediary since Jesus only spoke wisdom, wasn't divine, and can not be invoked.

There's a good deal I don't know about Islam. My attempt to read a translation of the Kor'an failed early at the lack of continuity and sequence in the writing.

 

[Jainarayan]

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Jesus did not say that He was the only way to come to the Father for all of time, but that is what Christians believe. However, that makes no sense because we know that before Jesus walked the earth the Jews came to God by way of Moses, so why would Jesus suddenly become the only way for all time?

I don’t think he meant he was the only way for all time. He had also said he came to call the lost sheep of Israel.

And even if he was saying he was the only way, what was he saying any different from others who came before or after him. His teachings focused on devotion to and love of God.

His two “great commandments” were to love God with everything you have in you (bhakti, devotion) and love your neighbor as yourself (dharma and ahimsā, i.e. righteousness and non-injury).

His should have been and remained solely a bhakti movement. But egotistical and controlling “church fathers”, beginning with Paul (whom I refuse to refer to as Saint) completely bastardized his work.

 

[blü 2]

Why believe that creation is imperfect and we know better than God?

What kind of God would limit [his] message to a tiny corner of the Roman Empire, so that 2000 years later India, China and much of the rest of Asia very largely ignore [him]?

Come to think of it, what kind of God would sacrifice [his] son to [him]self, when with one snap of those omnipotent fingers [he] could have any kind of world and societies that [he] wished?

 

[CG Didymus]

We can only work with our own perspectives, experiences, and contemplations. We are individuals and need to cherish our individuality. If some one finds what works for them, that is what they should work with

Being this free to pick your own religion is fairly new. In ancient times everybody in that culture was expected to believe and obey the religion... or maybe even be killed.

Even with Christianity, some people were killed as heretics for not believing correctly.

​

Although Europe was nominally orthodox Christian throughout the Middle Ages, there were a number of movements which questioned the Church's teachings and sought to establish their own version of Christianity or, as in the case of the Paulicians, Bogomils, and Cathars, a kind of sister-religion which drew on the tenets of Persian Manichaeism, Greek Gnosticism, and Christianity. These movements were condemned as heresies and were ruthlessly crushed by the medieval Catholic Church.​

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And even more recently, Baha'is weren't killed and tortured for not believing correctly.

People and their religions, I'm glad that we live in a place where we can believe more freely and openly. But also, question those beliefs without being tortured and killed. I'd be one of the first to wimp out when faced with being tortured and say, "You know what... On second thought. I think your beliefs are true. Where do I sign up."

But thank God for those that didn't wimp out and challenged those religious leaders.

 

[CG Didymus]

His two “great commandments” were to love God with everything you have in you (bhakti, devotion) and love your neighbor as yourself (dharma and ahimsā, i.e. righteousness and non-injury).

Yeah, if people live by those kinds of teachings, who'd argue about their religion. But too many people make their doctrines and dogmas and their particular belief about the Gods more important. And I can see why... living according to the good stuff from a person's religion is much harder than talking and preaching about the beliefs of the religion being true.

 

[Trailblazer]

What kind of God would limit [his] message to a tiny corner of the Roman Empire, so that 2000 years later India, China and much of the rest of Asia very largely ignore [him]?

I don't think God limited His message to a tiny corner of the Roman Empire. In the Qur'an, it says that God has sent Prophets to every nation.

 

[Spice]

Being this free to pick your own religion is fairly new. In ancient times everybody in that culture was expected to believe and obey the religion... or maybe even be killed.

Even with Christianity, some people were killed as heretics for not believing correctly.

​

Although Europe was nominally orthodox Christian throughout the Middle Ages, there were a number of movements which questioned the Church's teachings and sought to establish their own version of Christianity or, as in the case of the Paulicians, Bogomils, and Cathars, a kind of sister-religion which drew on the tenets of Persian Manichaeism, Greek Gnosticism, and Christianity. These movements were condemned as heresies and were ruthlessly crushed by the medieval Catholic Church.​

​

And even more recently, Baha'is weren't killed and tortured for not believing correctly.

People and their religions, I'm glad that we live in a place where we can believe more freely and openly. But also, question those beliefs without being tortured and killed. I'd be one of the first to wimp out when faced with being tortured and say, "You know what... On second thought. I think your beliefs are true. Where do I sign up."

But thank God for those that didn't wimp out and challenged those religious leaders.

I read a book about 2 years ago entitled _The Highland Witch_, by Susan Fletcher. It hit me hard that four-hundred years ago, the person I am today would have been hanged for being a witch. Then it struck me just as hard - what if I was?

Yes, I'm extremely grateful for being able to follow The Way I feel is most true for me, for all who stood their ground to give me this freedom.

 

[Jainarayan]

I don't think God limited His message to a tiny corner of the Roman Empire. In the Qur'an, it says that God has sent Prophets to every nation.

That’s true … it was a message for the time and place. I don’t think God likes to reinvent the wheel, but rather he just repeats himself (I could never be God … I hate repeating myself ).

yada yada hi dharmasya
glanir bhavati bharata
abhyutthanam adharmasya
tadatmanam srijamyaham

“Whenever there is a decline in righteousness and an increase in unrighteousness, O Arjuna, at that time I manifest Myself on earth”. Bhagavad Gita 4.7

I don’t believe all religions are the same … methods of worship and images of God are different. But I do believe there is only one God, or entity, or as the Rig Veda says, one Truth known by many names. Unfortunately that one Truth and its messages are too often twisted and distorted.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Don't other people of other religions and within religions do that? Yet, you are hostile to us, and I'm not a psychologist and I don't really know you, so I can't fathom why you single us out for your greatest hostility. Psychoanalyze yourself on this. You tend to be opinionated it appears to me, anyway, and you are not pleasant to a lot of people.

Yes, I am opinionated. You too are opinionated. Every one is opinionated. We all have our opinions. But I do not start topics to say that other religions (in your case, Christians in particular) have a wrong interpretation of their own books. Show me if I have ever done that? You do that and that is mean. You antagonize not just Christians but followers of all other religions as well. You should know that you are unpleasant to far more people than I am. Bahais are rank proselytizers in Religious Forums, except for @arthra or @shunyadragon, and I respect them for that reason. Other Bahais act as if they are paid mercenaries of their House of Justice.

 

[Truthseeker]

Yes, I am opinionated. You too are opinionated. Every one is opinionated. We all have our opinions. But I do not start topics to say that other religions (in your case, Christians in particular) have a wrong interpretation of their own books. Show me if I have ever done that? You do that and that is mean. You antagonize not just Christians but followers of all other religions as well. You should know that you are unpleasant to far more people than I am. Bahais are rank proselytizers in Religious Forums, except for @arthra or @shunyadragon, and I respect them for that reason. Other Bahais act as if they are paid mercenaries of their House of Justice.

I know a couple of Baha'is that do tend to proselytize, but not all of us. You bash Baha'i often when Baha'is say something.

 

[Trailblazer]

Don't blame humans for what God did. He created us imperfect and junked us on Earth.

Don't blame God for what humans did. He created us good and gave us free will and some of us choose to be bad.
There is nothing more to it than that.

Do you ever watch true crime programs? Some humans are about as bad as can be imagined and those people deserve to burn in hell.
How could it possibly be God's fault if people choose to commit a heinous murder?

 

[Trailblazer]

You bash Baha'i often when Baha'is say something.

He bashes Baha'is and Baha'u'llah even when nobody said anything.
I could prove that but I have better things to do.