If Jesus isn't the only way to come to God...

[Valjean]

You’re asking questions. How can I not?

The Hobbit has no information on the subject.

Both are series of legends and morality tales.

 

[Valjean]

I did not know about those distinctions exist in the Bible as I am not proficient with the Bible like you are.

It is a Baha'i belief that only through an intermediary can we know anything about God or God's will for man.
We believe that there is no way we can relate to God directly, only through the intermediary, who is the Messenger of God.

This system seems to invite ambitious charlatans. How does one choose among them? How does one test their claims?
Surely God would have the knowledge and means to communicate directly and clearly to us.

 

[Valjean]

Our life, and ability to appreciate the variety we enjoy.

There's no evidence any of that is the gift of a benevolent god.

You think DNA is a mess? The only mess & chaos I see, come from men.

Everyone familiar with it thinks it's a mess.

What makes you think this? What the Bible says?

It's not a Shinto or Sikh mythology we're talking about. It's all Biblically derived.

 

[Spice]

As soon as I hear a good explanation for cancer, including cancers that inflict children, then it is a first step towards defending the claim of a perfect creation. It's only one question of many terrible things humans have to deal with that results from living in a natural world, and that religions seems designed to help cope with. You're minding your business and then an earthquake flattens your town and kills your family. Why were earthquakes designed? How are they helpful?

These things are terribly unfair from the human perspective. But God created ALL things and they are ALL GOOD. Why should we believe humans are superior? It's only because we believe it -- that doesn't make it so. Humility is a powerful force. That force can bring personal peace. This is Tao, if I'm learning properly. And is tied to Nirvana, again if I'm learning correctly.

Science has shown we all carry cancer cells, but what makes them activate aggressively is still unknown. What is their dormant purpose? Unknown. Will we ever know? Perhaps. But until then, acceptance that our Universe is made of individual perfections that sometimes appear to collide in disaster, but for an unrecognizable good, can ease a troubled mind.

 

[CG Didymus]

Why at all you are taking up the sword against Christianity? Is that how you will bring peace and brotherhood to the world? Keep to your faith and let the Christians believe what they believe. You have problems with every religion of the world. Moses did not say that, Muhammad did not say that, Krishna did not say that, Buddha did not say that. Bahais are the latest troublesome people of the world.

In another thread Baha'is are going at it with Muslims. Neither side is going to win the argument. And for Baha'is, they come off as just being another religion that thinks its prophet is the guy and that their interpretations of the other religions are correct. Which causes the opposite of unity, understanding and respect between the religions.

Baha'is claim that they don't believe they are the only "true" religion, but that is exactly what ends up happening. There is not one other religion that they believe is true as is. They all have got something wrong with them... No peace and unity in that.

 

[CG Didymus]

So what is the whole sacrifice and redemption thing in Christian mythology? It seems like a variation of the animal sacrifices the early Israelites were so enamored with.
Why couldn't God have designed things properly to begin with?

Yes, that's how I think it could be... mythology. The early Hebrews came up with their story on how they got here, and where they are going. Their God was a jealous God and punished them when they did wrong and punished other people when they tried to hurt his people.

The Adam and Eve myth explained why things aren't perfect. Adam's disobedience caused God to have to curse him and his wife and curse the Earth. As if he had no other choice.

Then the Christian myth needed a way to show that there was a need for Jesus to sacrifice himself. Adam sinned. We all inherited that sin. Sacrificing animals wasn't a permanent solution, so God sent his only Son, Jesus, the perfect person, to be the perfect sacrifice... once and for all time.

Baha'is want to change the story. Why? Leave it as it is and just call it myth and move on.

But they can't... They have their own myths to push onto humanity. A kinder, more loving God... no inherited sin, no hell, no need for Jesus being the "only" way. Instead, all religions are true, or at least were true, until people messed them up. But now God sent his "twin" manifestations to Earth to teach us the way. They have the "true" interpretations of all the old religions.

Yeah, yeah, yeah... Just like Christianity had the "true" interpretations of Judaism. But according to Baha'is, those interpretations were wrong. And, of course, the Baha'i interpretations are what's really true. This time we can trust in what God supposedly said by his supposed messengers.

 

[CG Didymus]

It was originally; but He didn’t create us to be automatons.

Jehovah wants our loyalty to come from gratitude; not because we are programmed to be obedient, but because we want to.

So, he gave his people over 600 laws in which he got them to promise to obey... knowing they wouldn't and couldn't obey them. And for some of those laws, God had the people kill those people that broke those laws... knowing that none of them were keeping the laws perfectly. They were all guilty of something.

Yeah, the "automatons" is a fairly good explanation. But God could have programmed us with at least a little more love and compassion for others. But I know, it's that doggone devil's fault. He whispers in our ear and gets us to do evil things.

But wait... who created the devil and allowed him to do this?

But wait... the Baha'is don't believe that Satan, the devil, is real.

It's almost like religions are making things up as they go.

 

[CG Didymus]

Legends and folk tales.
Can Odin or Zeus die?

Jesus, the God/man, didn't die but God, the Father, brought him back to life.

Proving, once and for all, that death could not hold him.

But wait, Baha'is say that God didn't really do that. Jesus died and stayed dead.

Oh well, it was a great myth while it lasted. What is the new myth we're all supposed to believe in now?

 

[Truthseeker]

What a strange thing to say in a debate section.

What for asking questions and forming opinions?

I am not nor have ever been or even known a Bahai, but they are as welcome as anybody else in my opinion. So many people seem to reserve some unexplained hostility towards them, why?

I don't know myself why as a Baha'i.

 

[CG Didymus]

Surely God would have the knowledge and means to communicate directly and clearly to us.

One thing I like about Baha'is, they know how to put together a good thread that gets people involved.

However, why is their stuff true? Their belief is that people can't communicate directly to this God of theirs. Yet... one of the religions they say is true is Buddhism.

I don't know for sure, but I thought the Buddha taught that anyone could, eventually, become enlightened. Enlightened to what, though? To a type of God-consciousness? Enlightened to some spiritual power? I don't know. But that sounds close enough for me to mean that anybody can communicate and become one with the ultimate reality.

But even Christianity has people able to communicate with God through Jesus and the Holy Spirit. And is that any different than a supposed manifestation of God getting a message from the Angel Gabriel or the Angel Moroni? Or some "heavenly maiden"?

Anyway, some religions do believe that people can get direct information from their God. But can a Baha'i believe that? For them, their religion has to be true.

 

[Truthseeker]

That is because they try to prove all others as wrong. "This is not what Bible meant, This is not what Quran means, etc."

Don't other people of other religions and within religions do that? Yet, you are hostile to us, and I'm not a psychologist and I don't really know you, so I can't fathom why you single us out for your greatest hostility. Psychoanalyze yourself on this. You tend to be opinionated it appears to me, anyway, and you are not pleasant to a lot of people.

 

[Truthseeker]

This system seems to invite ambitious charlatans. How does one choose among them? How does one test their claims?
Surely God would have the knowledge and means to communicate directly and clearly to us.

In your profile it says Vedanta(reform). I know some Hindus don't believe in God, are you one of those? Saying "Surely God would have the knowledge and means to communicate directly and clearly to us." is typical of atheists. I can't count how many times I've heard that from atheists. My experience tells me it is fruitless to try to try to counter that, so I won't try.

 

[CG Didymus]

But God created ALL things and they are ALL GOOD.

But in some religions, there are explanations why things aren't so good, even with Judaism. Things were good, then Eve got deceived by a talking serpent, got Adam to try the forbidden fruit, and God cursed them and the Earth.

With Christianity, all the bad stuff is because of Satan.

Other religions have good Gods and evil Gods. But even the good God in some of the religions, causes bad things to happen. Then with one God being the creator and another God being the destroyer.

Does a belief in only one God, that is all good, the best way to explain what we see around us? But is any belief really true? Or is it just people trying to come up with an explanation?

 

[Truthseeker]

In another thread Baha'is are going at it with Muslims. Neither side is going to win the argument.

You got that right. I'm not arguing any more there. i am argued too much and for too protracted a period there. It's fruitless.

Baha'is claim that they don't believe they are the only "true" religion, but that is exactly what ends up happening. There is not one other religion that they believe is true as is. They all have got something wrong with them... No peace and unity in that.

Oh, come on. I believe in other religions "as is". The trouble is with people, not the religions themselves. That is true of all religions, including some Baha'is.

 

[CG Didymus]

Good probing questions.

We all have "probing" questions for Christians... especially the Born-Again, fundamentalist Christians. Oh, and JW's and Mormons... and Catholics...

But one comment on one thing she said... and it's about Moses being a mediator. That's fine. But was Moses a manifestation?

To me, he doesn't fit the Baha'i definition of being a perfectly polished mirror that reflected God.

I don't see Moses as being perfect. He wasn't even allowed by God to go into the promised land. And the same with Adam, Noah and Abraham. I don't see how Baha'is can make them manifestations either. They are presented in the Bible as being very human... they all had flaws.

And one thing that especially relates to you... Why not put these threads in a non-debating section like "Comparative Religions"? Then Baha'is could just state what they believe, and others could state what they believe... no arguing, no debating.

But they are not. They are put here. Baha'is know that some people are going to disagree with them and tell them why they believe that the Baha'is are wrong. And sometimes, maybe not do it in a very nice way.

One other problem is that with some answers, Baha'is are going to sound like they are preaching or even proselytizing. Baha'is are often going to sound like their beliefs are superior to the beliefs of the other people in the other religions.

Actually, for me, I like these threads right here. The Baha'i threads always stir things up... but is that the intent?

 

[CG Didymus]

Oh, come on. I believe in other religions "as is".

Which ones? Hindus that believe in reincarnation, or Buddhists that believe in rebirth? No. Jews that believe Isaac was taken to be sacrificed by his father, Abraham? No. Christians that believe Jesus bodily rose from the dead? No. Sunnis or Shia Muslims? If they believe Muhammad was the last prophet, then I'd say, "no", to them too.

But you know what, I don't even believe in them. So, I don't see it as necessarily a bad thing. I'm okay with religions changing, evolving and improving their beliefs. I could see how they might incorporate some Baha'i beliefs into their religion... but keep most of their core beliefs.

 

[sun rise]

As soon as I hear a good explanation for cancer, including cancers that inflict children, then it is a first step towards defending the claim of a perfect creation. It's only one question of many terrible things humans have to deal with that results from living in a natural world, and that religions seems designed to help cope with. You're minding your business and then an earthquake flattens your town and kills your family. Why were earthquakes designed? How are they helpful?

Multiple different perspectives which I accept and you might not:

What is perfection? Zero suffering ever? What about the Olympic gold metal winner who suffered all sorts of injuries in the quest of gold and then stands on the top stand and says "it was worth all the suffering"? In addition we're attracted to stories of someone overcoming despair, disappointment, setbacks and suffering - there are endless movies, TV shows and novels.

Without pain we would never appreciate pleasure. A bird does not appreciate freedom until it has been caged and is then set free. Without the bipolar existence we all share, nothing would have at least apparent meaning.

Karma and reincarnation. To me both exist and suffering is a consequence of deeds in prior lifetimes.

God as the only reality - One thus has God, as infinite Love, first limiting Himself in the forms of creation and then recovering his infinity through the different stages of creation. All the stages of God's experience of being a finite lover ultimately culminate in His experiencing Himself as the sole Beloved.

The sojourn of the soul is a thrilling divine romance in which the lover — who in the beginning is conscious of nothing but emptiness, frustration, superficiality, and the gnawing chains of bondage — gradually attains an increasingly fuller and freer expression of love. And ultimately the lover disappears and merges in the divine Beloved to realize the unity of the lover and the Beloved in the supreme and eternal fact of God as infinite Love.

 

[Spice]

But in some religions, there are explanations why things aren't so good, even with Judaism. Things were good, then Eve got deceived by a talking serpent, got Adam to try the forbidden fruit, and God cursed them and the Earth.

With Christianity, all the bad stuff is because of Satan.

Other religions have good Gods and evil Gods. But even the good God in some of the religions, causes bad things to happen. Then with one God being the creator and another God being the destroyer.

Does a belief in only one God, that is all good, the best way to explain what we see around us? But is any belief really true? Or is it just people trying to come up with an explanation?

We can only work with our own perspectives, experiences, and contemplations. We are individuals and need to cherish our individuality. If some one finds what works for them, that is what they should work with, if and until it is no longer a comfort, or no longer produces desired results. There are as many explanations as there are people, and all are "correct" if it bears the correct fruit. The fruit, or the results, of any believe is what matters, IMO.

A few days ago, Rival started a thread asking about far western religions. It had me brushing up on my local/ancestral religion. I had forgotten that my native ancestors did not spend any time on the Creator God, for he was good and did not need their attention. They spent their time paying tribute to the Destroyer God so that he would look kindly upon them and let them live in safety and peace. It worked. They were a peaceful nation, and some of the earliest to be eliminated or assimilated. And so it goes.....

 

[Trailblazer]

Our life, and ability to appreciate the variety we enjoy.

What about people who don't enjoy life?

What makes you think this? What the Bible says?

Does everything have to be deduced from what the Bible says?
Some of us can think for ourselves.

 

[Trailblazer]

You'll recall that the Jewish God's followers have always been able to address / invoke [him] without an intermediary

Baha'is also believe that we can address and invoke God directly, without an intermediary, in prayer and supplication, but that doesn't mean God is going to address us back.