If Jesus was God, explain this verse...

[sojourner]

"To us he is God" makes no sense. God means the creator. The one who created the heavens, the Earth, the Universe. That is the God I'm talking about. I see no biblical evidence that that God is Jesus. Or that they are the same. The whole Jesus is God in the flesh but is also the son of God is completely illogical. It's clear they are not the same, according to the Bible anyway. I can prove to you that the Bible doesn't support this popular man made fantasy of them being the same entity. Can you prove to me that they are? Using biblical verses only! Not opinions, theories or excuses.

Why would you hold us to a stance of sola scriptura when that's never been the stance of Christianity? It creates a false premise from which to draw theological conclusions. Both Jesus and the Jews before him demonstrated that a basis for formulating doctrine includes, but is not limited to, scriptural text. Holding us to sola scriptura? Talk about posing something illogical!

 

[Aamer]

Why would you hold us to a stance of sola scriptura when that's never been the stance of Christianity? It creates a false premise from which to draw theological conclusions. Both Jesus and the Jews before him demonstrated that a basis for formulating doctrine includes, but is not limited to, scriptural text. Holding us to sola scriptura? Talk about posing something illogical!

This post is in SCRIPTURAL debates. Sojourner, you should not be posting in this section.

 

[Aamer]

Bible Verses That Indicate Jesus Is*Not*God The Creator
1. Matthew 24:36 No one knows*about that day or hour, not even the Son, but the*Father only.

Here Jesus makes a distinction between what he knows and what the Father knows.*

2. Matthew 26:39 My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me, yet not as I will, but as Thou will.

Jesus’ will is likewise autonomous from God’s Will. Jesus is seeking acquiescence to God’s will.

3. John 5:26*For as the Father has life in Himself, so*he has granted*the Son to have life in himself.

Jesus received his life from God. God received his life from no one. He is eternally self-existent.*

4. John 5:30 By myself, I can do nothing: I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who has sent me.

Jesus says, “by myself, I can do nothing.” This indicates that Jesus is relying upon his own relationship with God. He is not trying to “please myself” but rather is seeking to “please the one who sent me.”

5. John 5:19 The*Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees the Father doing, because whatever the Father does, the Son does also.

Jesus declares that he is following a pattern laid down by God. He is expressing obedience to God.

6. Mark 10:18 Why do you call me good?*No one*is good, except*God alone.

Here Jesus emphatically makes a distinction between himself and God.

7. John 14:28 The Father is greater than I.*

This is another strong statement that makes a distinction between Jesus and God.8. Matthew 6:9Our Father, which art in Heaven.He didn’t pray, Our Father, which art standing right here!”

9. Matthew 27:46 My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Inconceivable if he is God the Creator.

There is so much evidence in the Bible that Jesus is NOT God. But most will turn a blind eye to these verses because it's human nature to humanize God and worship partners alongside the creator. Most will disregard logic and continue to worship the wrong God instead of their actual creator simply because they are attached to the idea and don't want to face reality and change their beliefs. If you believe in the Bible, then Jesus can't be God. And Jesus preached the same thing every other prophet and messenger preached... To believe in God ALONE!

 

[Windwalker]

This post is in SCRIPTURAL debates. Sojourner, you should not be posting in this section.

If it were scriptural debates only, then you could not post your opinion about scripture. All this forum would consist of is nothing but versus. Here, this site here offers that. You can start here and work your way through the whole "debate". Genesis 1 NIV - The Beginning - In the beginning God - Bible Gateway

Since when is debating about scripture using outside references disallowed in this section? Maybe we should ask a moderators opinion, rather that setting the conditions ourselves?

 

[Aamer]

If it were scriptural debates only, then you could not post your opinion about scripture. All this forum would consist of is nothing but versus. Here, this site here offers that. You can start here and work your way through the whole "debate". Genesis 1 NIV - The Beginning - In the beginning God - Bible Gateway

Since when is debating about scripture using outside references disallowed in this section? Maybe we should ask a moderators opinion, rather that setting the conditions ourselves?

Opinions on the scripture is fine. Random thoughts with no scriptural basis really doesn't belong in this debate. I think that's fair.

What's your opinion on the verses I posted above?

 

[Muffled]

It sounds to me like whoever rejects Jesus does not have the support of God. And whoever accepts Jesus has the support of God. I don't think this verse in any way proves that Jesus and God are the same. But then again I must have misunderstood you earlier or confused you with someone else. I thought you were saying that they ARE the same.

I believe this is where you are in error because this word is not in the text.

I believe this is due to the fact that you have already prejudged the matter so the truth which is contrary to your belief can simply be denied.

 

[Aamer]

I believe this is where you are in error because this word is not in the text.

I believe this is due to the fact that you have already prejudged the matter so the truth which is contrary to your belief can simply be denied.

No. I've made my judgments based on logic and evidence. I left my birth religion and then Sunni Islam to follow what I believe to be the truth and I continue to seek answers. But you still didn't answer my question, what do you make of all those verses which seem to destroy the notion that Jesus was God, according to the Bible?

 

[sojourner]

This post is in SCRIPTURAL debates. Sojourner, you should not be posting in this section.

What you fail to understand is that "scriptural debates" does not imply a stance of sola scriptura. Scripture is part of the whole Tradition, which we use to formulate doctrine. Therefore, when we debate scripture, we also ought to include the rest of Tradition when it is cogent to the argument at hand.

The issue was Matthew 4:1. Somehow, you're arguing the Trinity out of that particular verse, even though that verse doesn't remotely deal with Jesus' divinity. In other words, the Tradition is not cogent to the verse you cite. Then you proceed to say that, just because the verse deals wholly with Jesus' humanity, Jesus must not be God. So here, you're introducing the broader Tradition into the verse, so you, yourself are not adhering to the "rules" you're attempting to hold me to. Seems to be a pattern with you: "Aamer gets to set the rules for everyone, but those same rules don't apply to him."

Sorry. Not buying it. Matt. 4:1 doesn't deal with Jesus' divinity. If you want to argue Jesus' divinity, you should probably be arguing John 1:1-14, or John 20:28. Not Matt. 4:1

 

[sojourner]

Bible Verses That Indicate Jesus Is*Not*God The Creator
1. Matthew 24:36 No one knows*about that day or hour, not even the Son, but the*Father only.

Here Jesus makes a distinction between what he knows and what the Father knows.*

2. Matthew 26:39 My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me, yet not as I will, but as Thou will.

Jesus’ will is likewise autonomous from God’s Will. Jesus is seeking acquiescence to God’s will.

3. John 5:26*For as the Father has life in Himself, so*he has granted*the Son to have life in himself.

Jesus received his life from God. God received his life from no one. He is eternally self-existent.*

4. John 5:30 By myself, I can do nothing: I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who has sent me.

Jesus says, “by myself, I can do nothing.” This indicates that Jesus is relying upon his own relationship with God. He is not trying to “please myself” but rather is seeking to “please the one who sent me.”

5. John 5:19 The*Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees the Father doing, because whatever the Father does, the Son does also.

Jesus declares that he is following a pattern laid down by God. He is expressing obedience to God.

6. Mark 10:18 Why do you call me good?*No one*is good, except*God alone.

Here Jesus emphatically makes a distinction between himself and God.

7. John 14:28 The Father is greater than I.*

This is another strong statement that makes a distinction between Jesus and God.8. Matthew 6:9Our Father, which art in Heaven.He didn’t pray, Our Father, which art standing right here!”

9. Matthew 27:46 My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Inconceivable if he is God the Creator.

There is so much evidence in the Bible that Jesus is NOT God. But most will turn a blind eye to these verses because it's human nature to humanize God and worship partners alongside the creator. Most will disregard logic and continue to worship the wrong God instead of their actual creator simply because they are attached to the idea and don't want to face reality and change their beliefs. If you believe in the Bible, then Jesus can't be God. And Jesus preached the same thing every other prophet and messenger preached... To believe in God ALONE!

When we worship Jesus, we are worshiping "God ALONE," for God is not only Creator, God is also Redeemer. And Sustainer. Since the doctrine of the Trinity asserts that Jesus is not only fully God, but at once fully human, the verses you cite here (in a pitifully poor attempt at proof-texting) are not compelling in the least.

Epic, epic, epic fail on your part.

 

[sojourner]

Opinions on the scripture is fine. Random thoughts with no scriptural basis really doesn't belong in this debate. I think that's fair.

What's your opinion on the verses I posted above?

Your assertion that "Jesus is not God" based on Matt. 4:1 is such a "random thought with no scriptural basis," and, therefore, does not belong in this debate.

Hey, you're the one making up the rules here. Looks like you just trapped yourself in one of them.

 

[sojourner]

No. I've made my judgments based on logic and evidence.

But not based on a Biblical text, as you claim the forum demands.

 

[sojourner]

what do you make of all those verses which seem to destroy the notion that Jesus was God, according to the Bible?

They only seem to "destroy the notion that Jesus is God," because you're proof-texting. "Seem" is the operative word here. Context is everything and you've effectively manipulated that to suit yourself, to make it "seem" as though the bible supports your own conclusion. Therefore, your last clause, "according to the bible," is misleading. It's not "according to the bible," it's really according to you, based upon a misuse of the biblical texts.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I agree. People read scriptures with one of two intentions.

1) To seek the truth.

2) To make the scripture fit whatever it is they have already decided they WANT to be the truth.

No, all people read scripture with both intentions.

As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.

In other words: everyone in the world is not subject to your judgments about truth but directly to God's judgment. You are out of the loop. No one perfectly seeks God, and you have no say over whether anyone is seeking God properly.

 

[Muffled]

Bible Verses That Indicate Jesus Is*Not*God The Creator
1. Matthew 24:36 No one knows*about that day or hour, not even the Son, but the*Father only.

I believe this does not indicate that Jesus is not God only that Jesus is temporal.

Here Jesus makes a distinction between what he knows and what the Father knows.*

I beleive there is no distinction between what each knows as in having information but there is a distinction of knowing by experience since God is not in the body of Jesus for all of time.

2. Matthew 26:39 My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me, yet not as I will, but as Thou will.

I believe this does not indicate that Jesus is not God because this is not a separation of wills caused by a different spirit but is a separation of the will of the body from that of the Spirit. The body is not God.

Jesus’ will is likewise autonomous from God’s Will. Jesus is seeking acquiescence to God’s will.

I believe this is an incorrect understanding

3. John 5:26*For as the Father has life in Himself, so*he has granted*the Son to have life in himself.

Jesus received his life from God. God received his life from no one. He is eternally self-existent.*

I believe you are so far out of context that you may never get back. However to speak to the issue of giving, one would usually infer different persons but in this case it is not. God provides for Himself what he wishes. And that is not a strange concept. I give myself birthday gifts.

4. John 5:30 By myself, I can do nothing: I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who has sent me.

Jesus says, “by myself, I can do nothing.” This indicates that Jesus is relying upon his own relationship with God. He is not trying to “please myself” but rather is seeking to “please the one who sent me.”

I believe this does not indicate that Jesus is not God because Jesus is making it plain that it isn't just a man doing things or pleasing himself.

5. John 5:19 The*Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees the Father doing, because whatever the Father does, the Son does also.

Jesus declares that he is following a pattern laid down by God. He is expressing obedience to God.

I believe He is saying He is God.

6. Mark 10:18 Why do you call me good?*No one*is good, except*God alone.

Here Jesus emphatically makes a distinction between himself and God.

I believe Jesus is saying He is God because He is good. He also says I am the good shepherd.

7. John 14:28 The Father is greater than I.*

This is another strong statement that makes a distinction between Jesus and God.8. Matthew 6:9Our Father, which art in Heaven.He didn’t pray, Our Father, which art standing right here!”

I believe this does not indicate that Jesus is not God because the distinction is between God in a body and God not in a body. God is everywhere. The prayer only provides a direction to pray to.

9. Matthew 27:46 My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Inconceivable if he is God the Creator.

I believe you are correct. I also believe that Jesus is just quoting a prophetic psalm of David that describes what He is going through.

There is so much evidence in the Bible that Jesus is NOT God. But most will turn a blind eye to these verses because it's human nature to humanize God and worship partners alongside the creator. Most will disregard logic and continue to worship the wrong God instead of their actual creator simply because they are attached to the idea and don't want to face reality and change their beliefs. If you believe in the Bible, then Jesus can't be God. And Jesus preached the same thing every other prophet and messenger preached... To believe in God ALONE!

I believe you wished me to respond to this so be prepared to be refuted because your conclusion is in error.

I believe this is a misjudgement on your part. God has humanized Himself. Most people were afraid to even talk to God let alone meet Him on the street. I do not worship any partners alongside God and I believe any attribution of such is total speculation.

I believe one who doesn't believe Jesus is God in the flesh fits this description but I do not.

I believe you are in error on this.

 

[rusra02]

You're joking, right? John 1:1. Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος

In the beginning the word already was? There's lots more, but this is good enough. So, when do you believe Logos came into existence? In verse 14 of John 1?

Yes, in the beginning the Word was. Apparently, John was speaking of the beginning mentioned in Genesis 1:1. So Jesus was with his Father when the visible universe was created. Colossians 1:15 calls Jesus the "Firstborn of all creation." Jesus is a part of that of which he is Firstborn, creation.
So that verse does not speak of the Word as timeless or eternal.

 

[Pann]

people all have their own interpretations of jesus and his message, but essentially jesus was both man and God...it can be reasoned that Christ is God, and Jesus was just a body and mind.

 

[Ken Brown]

Matthew 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

If Jesus was God, why was he tempted by the Devil? Can God be tempted by the Devil, his own creation?

Granted, he passed the test. But if he was God... Why was there a test in the first place? Does God need to test himself?

Are God and Jesus really one in the same? Please answer logically how this is possible given the verse above.

Hi Aamer, Yeshua was ONLY a man, The Son of Man, as He existed in the flesh...He was not Elohim in the flesh as most traditional christians believe. But here is one thing that you should understand. Yeshua was Yahweh of the OT (John 8:58), and He gave up being Him, to become a man. When He emptied Himself of His diety, He was only a man, and could be tempted:

Php 2:5-11
(5) Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Messiah Yeshua,
(6) who, though he was in the form of Elohim, did not count equality with ELohim a thing to be grasped,
(7) but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
(8) And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
(9) Therefore Elohim has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name,
(10) so that at the name of Yeshua every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
(11) and every tongue confess that Messiah Yeshua is Master, to the glory of Elohim the Father.

Now, He was a man who did not have the Spirit of Elohim given to Him with a measure as Elohim does for the rest of us (1 Thess 4:8, 1 John 3:24, Heb 2:4):

Joh 3:34
(34) For he whom Elohim hath sent speaketh the words of Elohim: for Elohim giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

So that is the only difference between Yeshua and other men who had the Spirit, the Spirit was not limited at all with him.

And then you have Yeshua BECOMING the ONLY begotten of the Father, by and through His Resurrection:

Act 13:33
(33) Elohim hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Yeshua again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

And that makes Him the FIRSTBORN Son:

Rom 8:29
(29) For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

So, in conclusion, Yahweh, of the OT gave up being Elohim and became a man so that He could be the Firstborn of those who overcame and were raised to life eternal. And in that process, He could be tempted because He was only a man as He was in the flesh. KB

 

[jetson]

Jesus Christ, did not bite on Satan's trick. He was never tempted. Satan tried to tempt him, but he failed to accomplish his goal. If He had jump off the temple He would have been a dead man. He was only a man while on earth, but still had his Godhood powers. Remember when He was arrested He said, He could call out twenty legions of angels to help him. He was here to give His life for the salvation of man. Notice, I said give. They could not take His life if He had not been willing to give it.

 

[Windwalker]

He was never tempted.

Then it wouldn't be a test, would it? "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are —yet he did not sin". ~He. 4:15

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Bible Verses That Indicate Jesus Is*Not*God The Creator
1. Matthew 24:36 No one knows*about that day or hour, not even the Son, but the*Father only.

Here Jesus makes a distinction between what he knows and what the Father knows.*

2. Matthew 26:39 My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me, yet not as I will, but as Thou will.

Jesus’ will is likewise autonomous from God’s Will. Jesus is seeking acquiescence to God’s will.

3. John 5:26*For as the Father has life in Himself, so*he has granted*the Son to have life in himself.

Jesus received his life from God. God received his life from no one. He is eternally self-existent.*

4. John 5:30 By myself, I can do nothing: I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who has sent me.

Jesus says, “by myself, I can do nothing.” This indicates that Jesus is relying upon his own relationship with God. He is not trying to “please myself” but rather is seeking to “please the one who sent me.”

5. John 5:19 The*Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees the Father doing, because whatever the Father does, the Son does also.

Jesus declares that he is following a pattern laid down by God. He is expressing obedience to God.

6. Mark 10:18 Why do you call me good?*No one*is good, except*God alone.

Here Jesus emphatically makes a distinction between himself and God.

7. John 14:28 The Father is greater than I.*

This is another strong statement that makes a distinction between Jesus and God.8. Matthew 6:9Our Father, which art in Heaven.He didn’t pray, Our Father, which art standing right here!”

9. Matthew 27:46 My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Inconceivable if he is God the Creator.

There is so much evidence in the Bible that Jesus is NOT God. But most will turn a blind eye to these verses because it's human nature to humanize God and worship partners alongside the creator. Most will disregard logic and continue to worship the wrong God instead of their actual creator simply because they are attached to the idea and don't want to face reality and change their beliefs. If you believe in the Bible, then Jesus can't be God. And Jesus preached the same thing every other prophet and messenger preached... To believe in God ALONE!

Those verses only show that Jesus is not the Father.