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If money is the root of all evil.............

jtartar

Well-Known Member
In general, I agree with Riverwolf: what you can buy with money is the thing to value, not the money itself.

However, there is something to be said about the pontentiality of money: It can be anything! Once you buy something with it, it's lost it's flexibility. I'd prefer to have a nice cusiony savings account than a whole bunch of tvs or something like that.

Falvlun,
The Bible is being misquoted about money being the root of all evil.
The Bible never says that money is evil, in fact the Bible says that money can be a protection, Ecc 7:12.
At 1Tim 6:10, says that the LOVE of money is the root of all sorts of injurious things. There is a lot of difference between the LOVE of money and money used for good things. The Bible tells us that people who desire to be RICH, fall into temptation and a snare, which will lead men to destruction, 1Tim 6:9.
Jesus gave us the perfect admonition, in the Sermon on the Mount, Matt 6:19-21,24, which tells us to store up our treasures in heaven, for where you treasure is, there you HEART will be, also. The Bible also says that we brought nothing into the world and can carry nothing out , so we should be content with sustenance and covering, 1Tim 6:7,8, Heb 13:5.
The problem is not money, it is what we think about money. Most rich people put too much trust in money,, believing it can save them, Prov 17:11.
The truth is; maney who attain to riches have done it with a lack of morals, or at least no fairness, Ps 10:3, Prov 15:27, James 5:1-6.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Then why do most conservatives resist "sharing" it with the less fortunate? Isn't that what jesus did? All I see is that the Repubs in office hoarding more and more money for the rich, while they claim themselves as being religious at the same time. Oxymoron no?

Wow, where to begin...so many "unfacts" in such a short OP!

Sandy and Mr Emu both tried to correct this, and brought up very salient points, but apparently those who choose to cling to their belief that conservatives and Christians are selfish, greedy capitalist pigs really aren't interested in facts.

Especially facts that disprove their fondly-held and much-caressed opinions.

Here is the verse about the "love of money being the root of all evil" IN CONTEXT (which is, by the way, the best start in determining the true meaning of a passage in ANY book, including but not limited to the Bible):

(By the way, I've bolded the parts I find ironic or especially pertinent!)

Paul is writing this letter to the man he was mentoring at the time, Timothy, who was a leader in the early church at Ephesus. The book of 1 Timothy gives advice on the structure and leadership of that group of believers. It's teachings are to be applied to CHRISTIANS in their interactions with each other and within their community.

From 1 Timothy 6

3If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 4he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 5and constant friction between men of corrupt mind,

(I thought this was pretty funny, considering how much time we all spend debating religious dogmas! A good reminder to Christians not to spend too much time in fruitless arguing over Christian beliefs.)

who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.

(Yep, we all know of corrupt religious leaders. That doesn't mean of course that ALL religious leaders are corrupt.)

6But godliness with contentment is great gain. 7For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. 8But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. 9People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction.

(I think this means that if your emphasis is on attaining wealth then you have attached too much importance to that endeavor. This lack of balance can and usually does wreak havoc on your personal life - as well as those who are close to you, and even further in your circle if you have a wide circle of influence, as many wealthy people do.)

10For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

(Catch that? SOME PEOPLE. Not ALL PEOPLE. It's a balancing act that we play out in our lives. The things of this earth are temporal, but the good that we do for others has eternal effects - as does the bad that we do.)

Paul’s Charge to Timothy

11But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness.

(Flee from the LOVE of money. Flee from wandering from the faith. This does not say "flee from money" or "give all your money away," though some people may believe they are called to do so. All are not called to do so, however.)

I have snipped some verses which weren't pertinent to this particular conversation, about the glory of God. If you're interested, you can always google it.

17Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. 18Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share.

(Notice that they are not commanded to give up their wealth - but instead to use it wisely.)

19In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life.


The Christian is taught not to focus on this life only, but to keep in mind that this life is temporary, and our true wealth lies in eternal life.


20Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge, 21which some have professed and in so doing have wandered from the faith.
Grace be with you.

Christians - we would do well to remember this advice as we interact on this forum!

Ok, but moving on to more facts which may be inconvenient for some.

Then why do most conservatives resist "sharing" it with the less fortunate?

This is simply not true. As Sandy and Mister Emu tried to point out earlier (and were simply ignored) HERE are the facts:

It Turns Out Conservatives Really Are Compassionate

By STEPHEN J. DUBNERArthur C. Brooks, a professor at Syracuse University whose work involves public policy and philanthropy, has written a new book called Who Really Cares: America’s Charity Divide: Who Gives, Who Doesn’t, and Why It Matters. His boldface conclusion? As summarized in this interesting article, Brooks found that “religious conservatives donate far more money than secular liberals to all sorts of charitable activities, irrespective of income.”

It Turns Out Conservatives Really Are Compassionate - NYTimes.com

Of the top 25 states where people give an above average percent of their income, 24 were red states in the last presidential election.
Who Gives and Who Doesn't? - ABC News

Arthur Brooks, the author of "Who Really Cares," says that "when you look at the data, it turns out the conservatives give about 30 percent more." He adds, "And incidentally, conservative-headed families make slightly less money."
And he says the differences in giving goes beyond money, pointing out that conservatives are 18 percent more likely to donate blood. He says this difference is not about politics, but about the different way conservatives and liberals view government.
"You find that people who believe it's the government's job to make incomes more equal, are far less likely to give their money away," Brooks says. In fact, people who disagree with the statement, "The government has a basic responsibility to take care of the people who can't take care of themselves," are 27 percent more likely to give to charity.
Who Gives and Who Doesn't? - ABC News

Also, the same study showed that in the US, the lower classes give the highest PERCENTAGE of their income to charity, while the highest income earners of course give the most DOLLARS (fifty percent of charitable giving is from those earning over one million per year). The lowest giving class? THE AMERICAN MIDDLE CLASS.

Though - to be fair, the American middle class is more generous than the middle class in most other countries.

From the same study:

Finally, the single biggest predictor of whether someone will be charitable is their religious participation.
Religious people are more likely to give to charity, and when they give, they give more money: four times as much.

So, to answer this question,

Then why do most conservatives resist "sharing" it with the less fortunate?

They don't. False accusation.

All I see is that the Repubs in office hoarding more and more money for the rich, while they claim themselves as being religious at the same time. Oxymoron no?

Just because some politician is a Republican, does NOT mean that he/she is a Christian, regardless of their claims. Our works, not our words, are the truest indicator of our hearts and character.

Most politicians are corrupt, power hungry, and focused on their own careers rather than the needs of their constituents. But I thought everyone knew that.

Conservatives believe that the needs of the poor are best met via private giving and charity rather than by a corrupt government and it's wasteful programs. Not to say that all social programs are unnecessary - most conservatives simply believe that they're not the most efficient way to help some people.
 
Hi! Bible says:"However, those who are determined to be rich fall into temptation and a snare and many senseless and hurtful desires, which plunge men into destruction and ruin. For the love of money is a root of all sorts of injurious things, and by reaching out for this love some have been led astray from the faith and have stabbed themselves all over with many pains."(2 Timothy 6:9, 10). Did you notice what it says here about money. What is bad- money itself, or love for them?Bible says also that "money is for a protection".(Ecclesiastes 7:12)
For example, in the hands of skilled chef,a sharp knife is a useful tool. but the same knife in the hands of someone inattentive can cause serious harm. If handled skillfully, money too can be useful.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Wow, where to begin...so many "unfacts" in such a short OP!

Sandy and Mr Emu both tried to correct this, and brought up very salient points, but apparently those who choose to cling to their belief that conservatives and Christians are selfish, greedy capitalist pigs really aren't interested in facts.

Especially facts that disprove their fondly-held and much-caressed opinions.

Here is the verse about the "love of money being the root of all evil" IN CONTEXT (which is, by the way, the best start in determining the true meaning of a passage in ANY book, including but not limited to the Bible):

But 1 Timothy isn't the only part of the Bible to talk about money.

I went into some detail about this in a post several pages back. I'd like it if you could tell me what you think of it.

10For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

(Catch that? SOME PEOPLE. Not ALL PEOPLE. It's a balancing act that we play out in our lives. The things of this earth are temporal, but the good that we do for others has eternal effects - as does the bad that we do.)
But "some people" is ambiguous. Maybe it means all people with wealth; maybe some are exempt... the passage doesn't make it clear which is the case.


11But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness.

(Flee from the LOVE of money. Flee from wandering from the faith. This does not say "flee from money" or "give all your money away," though some people may believe they are called to do so. All are not called to do so, however.)
But how do you reconcile this with other messages in the Gospel? Jesus warns to rid onesself of sources of temptation, saying to even pluck out your eye if it causes you to sin.

It does seem to me that Paul is suggesting that money can represent a great temptation for sin; if that's the case, isn't it better to be rid of it?

17Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. 18Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share.

(Notice that they are not commanded to give up their wealth - but instead to use it wisely.)
... and if we go by Acts as well, this was with the understanding that a person's wealth belonged to the church, not to the individual. When Ananais and Sapphira try to keep some of their wealth for themselves, they're struck down by God.


Ok, but moving on to more facts which may be inconvenient for some.



This is simply not true. As Sandy and Mister Emu tried to point out earlier (and were simply ignored) HERE are the facts:

It Turns Out Conservatives Really Are Compassionate

By STEPHEN J. DUBNERArthur C. Brooks, a professor at Syracuse University whose work involves public policy and philanthropy, has written a new book called Who Really Cares: America’s Charity Divide: Who Gives, Who Doesn’t, and Why It Matters. His boldface conclusion? As summarized in this interesting article, Brooks found that “religious conservatives donate far more money than secular liberals to all sorts of charitable activities, irrespective of income.”

It Turns Out Conservatives Really Are Compassionate - NYTimes.com
Since churches are considered charitable activities, I wonder how much of this charitable giving goes toward religion for its own sake and how much actually gets through to helping people in need... but you (and Mister Emu) do have a point.

Conservatives believe that the needs of the poor are best met via private giving and charity rather than by a corrupt government and it's wasteful programs. Not to say that all social programs are unnecessary - most conservatives simply believe that they're not the most efficient way to help some people.
My impression is that conservatives also tend to support religious organizations more than liberals. If the difference in their charitable donations just comes down to the fact that liberals don't tend to support things like missionary work, the Discovery Institute, and anti-abortion pickets, then I wouldn't say that conservatives are really more generous than liberals.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that without more information on where people's "charitable" donations are actually going, the jury's still out on whether conservatives are better at following Biblical teaching on this than liberals.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
I'm assuming you think you're referring to a biblical teaching. If you are, you're wrong. The Bible never says that money is the root of all evil. It says the love of money is the root of all evil.

Isn't money the root of all love of money?
 

dust1n

Zindīq
Since churches are considered charitable activities, I wonder how much of this charitable giving goes toward religion for its own sake and how much actually gets through to helping people in need... but you (and Mister Emu) do have a point.

I don't really see the point. First of all, the article was published on "http://www.beliefnet.com/News/index.aspx" Really? Second of all, I don't Jesus meant 'donate a comfortable amount of the poor'... I think he was a bit more adamant.

Also, isn't bragging about how much you give to the poor a form of pride? Does the sin ever stop?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I don't really see the point. First of all, the article was published on "http://www.beliefnet.com/News/index.aspx" Really?
I've seen the same claim from other, more trustworthy sources.

Second of all, I don't Jesus meant 'donate a comfortable amount of the poor'... I think he was a bit more adamant.

Also, isn't bragging about how much you give to the poor a form of pride? Does the sin ever stop?
The OP portrayed conservatives and Republicans as tightwads when it comes to helping the less fortunate. I think that arguing that they actually donate more than average does speak to that claim.

... though like I said earlier, I'd like to know exactly where the donations in question are going before I would consider the matter closed.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I don't really see the point. First of all, the article was published on "http://www.beliefnet.com/News/index.aspx" Really? Second of all, I don't Jesus meant 'donate a comfortable amount of the poor'... I think he was a bit more adamant.


Actually the "article" was a study and a book and has been discussed, written about, etc. in a wide array of formats and media since it's release. And I was unable to find any credible source that was able to refute the facts of the study.

And there was no indication that anyone was "bragging about how much they gave." This information can be gathered without anyone "bragging."
 
No. The 'LOVE' of money is the root of all evil.

1 Timothy 6:9-11 (King James Version)



9But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
10For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. 11But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.

James 8:32
thecomforter.info
 
Money itself is a defense.

Ecclesiastes 7:12 (King James Version)


12For wisdom is a defence, and money is a defence: but the excellency of knowledge is, that wisdom giveth life to them that have it.

Ecclesiastes 10:19 (King James Version)


19A feast is made for laughter, and wine maketh merry: but money answereth all things.

John 8:32
thecomforter.info
 

dust1n

Zindīq
I've seen the same claim from other, more trustworthy sources.

It would be nice to get some more information about this. I saw the written in a book part, but the link sent me to that website, where no info was available.


The OP portrayed conservatives and Republicans as tightwads when it comes to helping the less fortunate. I think that arguing that they actually donate more than average does speak to that claim.
Not necessarily: a.) Donations are tax ride offs. Are deductions included in the studies? and b.) Is giving money the only legitimate way to help the less fortunate? How are these calculated in the realm of charity. If anything, Jesus was pretty hands-on when it came to his 'helping the less fortunate', wouldn't you agree? c.) Those figures could only take into account donations recognized by the tax system. It does not take into account 'black market' donations. A rich Republican way be willing to give an amount and deduct the taxes, while liberals may be more likely to give money directly to people, opposed to foundations. These, I'm sure, were not taken into consideration.

... though like I said earlier, I'd like to know exactly where the donations in question are going before I would consider the matter closed.
Sure would be.
 
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Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Dust1n, POOR conservatives give the highest percentage of their income - higher than any other group - middle class, wealthy, liberal and conservatives. Middle class conservatives come next. Wealthy conservatives give the MOST money (not the highest percentage - like I said, that honor goes to poor conservatives).

I am sure that poor and middle class conservatives don't give such large amts for the tax write off.

In fact, that's the furthest thing from our minds when my husband and I donate money. We consider tithing to be our minimum when it comes to social obligations to help our community. And tithes don't necessarily go to our church. We like to get creative with the money we give to charity.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
Actually the "article" was a study and a book and has been discussed, written about, etc. in a wide array of formats and media since it's release. And I was unable to find any credible source that was able to refute the facts of the study.

And there was no indication that anyone was "bragging about how much they gave." This information can be gathered without anyone "bragging."

I was joking about the bragging... but something to take into consideration.

From the book:

When it comes to giving or not giving, conservatives and liberals look a lot alike. Conservative people are a percentage point or two more likely to give money each year than liberal people, but a percentage point or so less likely to volunteer [citing the 2002 General Social Survey (GSS) and the 2000 Social Capital Community Benchmark Survey (SCCBS)].

But this similarity fades away when we consider average dollar amounts donated. In 2000 [citing 2000 SCCBS data], households headed by a conservative gave, on average, 30 percent more money to charity than households headed by a liberal ($1,600 to $1,227). This discrepancy is not simply an artifact of income differences; on the contrary, liberal families earned an average of 6 percent more per year than conservative families, and conservative families gave more than liberal families within every income class, from poor to middle class to rich.​



We are talking $373 dollars. As far as the number people percentage wise, it's very close, and liberals donate more time.


Wowser.. this is some surprising truth about passionate conservatism.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
Dust1n, POOR conservatives give the highest percentage of their income - higher than any other group - middle class, wealthy, liberal and conservatives. Middle class conservatives come next. Wealthy conservatives give the MOST money (not the highest percentage - like I said, that honor goes to poor conservatives).

I am sure that poor and middle class conservatives don't give such large amts for the tax write off.

I'm pretty sure you can deduct less than 2 grand worth of donations.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
We are talking $373 dollars. As far as the number people percentage wise, it's very close, and liberals donate more time.


Wowser.. this is some surprising truth about passionate conservatism.

I wonder if all of those average $1,500 dollars back up the money lost for social usage made by tax decreases for the rich... :rolleyes:
 
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