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If the Bible was first discovered in the Qumran caves near the Dead Sea...

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Well, the message given to Paul, as stipulated by the unknown author of Acts, was that Paul was to tell others not to eat things sacrificed to idols. Paul went ahead and said it was all right to eat things sacrificed to idols/gods. As for there being gods or no gods, the god of the declared god Caesar, the sun god, is the god worshipped by Christians, who worship on the day of the sun, per the decree of Augustus Caesar Constantine, in the year 321 AD. As for the prophecy of Zechariah 11, it is with regards to 3 shepherds who were to die in the same "month"/generation (Zechariah 11:8). One of those shepherds was identified in Matthew 27:3 & 9-10, when Zechariah 11:12-13 was quoted in respect to Judas and the "thirty pieces of silver". As for "religious scholars", give me a break. They are part of the church of Peter and Paul, and would be listed among the "wicked"/lawless of Daniel 12:10, who would not understand, even at the "end of the age", when the "stumbling blocks"/Peter, and "those who commit lawlessness/Paul, will be "gathered out" (Matthew 13:39-42).

Why did Paul say that--there is more to the story than "eat whatever", and this from a Pharisee who ate according to the then-kosher laws.

The rest, again, is you specifying prophecy fulfillment that is not possible--since the NT scriptures are still scriptures:

How was Paul "gathered out"? Don't 99.999% of us read Paul, even secular commentators?

Did the age end, since Jesus said He would return at its end?

The sun shines daily, and worship is not for Sunday OR Saturday only...
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Well, apparently you're not familiar with this list of does and don't from Jesus' Sermon On the Mount:

Matthew 5[27]"You have heard that it was said, `You shall not commit adultery.'
[28] But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
[29] If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell.
[30] And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.
[31]
"It was also said, `Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.'
[32] But I say to you that every one who divorces his wife, except on the ground of unchastity, makes her an adulteress; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
[33]
"Again you have heard that it was said to the men of old, `You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform to the Lord what you have sworn.'
[34] But I say to you, Do not swear at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God,
[35] or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King.
[36] And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black.
[37] Let what you say be simply `Yes' or `No'; anything more than this comes from evil.
[38]"You have heard that it was said, `An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.'
[39] But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also;
[40] and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well;
[41] and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles.
[42] Give to him who begs from you, and do not refuse him who would borrow from you.
[43]
"You have heard that it was said, `You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'
[44] But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
[45] so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
[46] For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
[47] And if you salute only your brethren, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?
[48] You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Matt.6
[1]"Beware of practicing your piety before men in order to be seen by them; for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven.
[2]"Thus, when you give alms, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by men. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.
[3] But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,
[4] so that your alms may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
[5]"And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.
[6] But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
[7]"And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words.
[8] Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
[9] Pray then like this: Our Father who art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy name.
[10] Thy kingdom come.
Thy will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
[11] Give us this day our daily bread;
[12] And forgive us our debts,
As we also have forgiven our debtors;
[13] And lead us not into temptation,
But deliver us from evil.
[14] For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you;
[15] but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
[16]"And when you fast, do not look dismal, like the hypocrites, for they disfigure their faces that their fasting may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.
[17] But when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face,
[18] that your fasting may not be seen by men but by your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
[19]"Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust consume and where thieves break in and steal,
[20] but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes and where thieves do not break in and steal.
[21] For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
[22]"The eye is the lamp of the body. So, if your eye is sound, your whole body will be full of light;
[23] but if your eye is not sound, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!
[24]"No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.
[25]"Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you shall eat or what you shall drink, nor about your body, what you shall put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing?
[26] Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they?
[27] And which of you by being anxious can add one cubit to his span of life?
[28] And why are you anxious about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they neither toil nor spin;
[29] yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
[30] But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you, O men of little faith?
[31] Therefore do not be anxious, saying, `What shall we eat?' or `What shall we drink?' or `What shall we wear?'
[32] For the Gentiles seek all these things; and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all.
[33] But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things shall be yours as well.
[34]"Therefore do not be anxious about tomorrow, for tomorrow will be anxious for itself. Let the day's own trouble be sufficient for the day.

Matt.7
[1]"Judge not, that you be not judged.
[2] For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get.
[3] Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
[4] Or how can you say to your brother, `Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when there is the log in your own eye?
[5] You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.
[6]"Do not give dogs what is holy; and do not throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under foot and turn to attack you.
[7]"Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
[8] For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.
[9] Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone?
[10] Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent?
[11] If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!
[12] So whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them; for this is the law and the prophets.
[13]"Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.
[14] For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
[15]"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
[16] You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles?
[17] So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit.
[18] A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
[19] Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
[20] Thus you will know them by their fruits.
[21]"Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
[22] On that day many will say to me, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'
[23] And then will I declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.'
[24]"Every one then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house upon the rock;
[25] and the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat upon that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock.
[26] And every one who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house upon the sand;
[27] and the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell; and great was the fall of it."
[28]And when Jesus finished these sayings, the crowds were astonished at his teaching,
[29] for he taught them as one who had authority, and not as their scribes.

I was the tour photographer several weeks ago in Israel, when we read Matthew 5-7 aloud just outside the CHURCH OF THE BEATITUDES. Please don't say silly things!

Let's rather say this--you feel strongly that Jesus is giving proscriptive WORKS here, WORKS by which I MIGHT be saved, if I DO THEM. Do you want several hundred other verses on salvation APART from works?
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Why do you suggest the Catholic was the oldest church, Paul and the Apostles establish many churches before the Roman Church was established. The Coptic, Ethopian , Greek and Jerusalem churches are at least as old in their earliest forms. to this day they all have different Bibles with different selections of Books. There never has been a single universal Bible.
You make a very valid point. Determining which one is older would make a very good topic. It seems the history gets very murky at this point.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Why did Paul say that--there is more to the story than "eat whatever", and this from a Pharisee who ate according to the then-kosher laws.

The rest, again, is you specifying prophecy fulfillment that is not possible--since the NT scriptures are still scriptures:

How was Paul "gathered out"? Don't 99.999% of us read Paul, even secular commentators?

Did the age end, since Jesus said He would return at its end?

The sun shines daily, and worship is not for Sunday OR Saturday only...

Constantine, the instituter of your mother Roman church, instituted the day of rest, in the year 321 AD, to be on the day of the sun, in order to try and change the times and the law, as dictated in Daniel 7:24-25, by the "another king/beast", which would be the 7th head of the beast of Revelation 17:10. 2/3 of the NT is Paul and his associates, which would make the NT a majority of tare seed, and the leader of the "many" of Matthew 7:13. The tares are to be gathered out first (Matthew 13:30), but when harvest time arrives, the tares are not protected. That means anyone can do what that may with them, for they are the foundation of sand, and require a bit of little wind, rain, and flooding to take down their house (Matthew 7:24-27). The "end of the age" as determined by Daniel 12:10-13, is when "they finish shattering the power of the holy people", which was finished when "Jerusalem", and "Judah", were "restored" in 1967, when those with insight will understand, but the "wicked"/lawless, will not. Those that think they are wise and intelligent, will not understanding (Matthew 11:25). The fact that the unholy Roman church determined that your NT canon was holy, should have thrown up red flags. You can read Paul all you want, and eat things sacrificed to demons, but don't think someone is going to come and give you a gold star for it, and then say Paul is simply conveying the message given to him by James, for he is not. If you read Matthew 24:29, it is "immediately after the tribulation of those days" that "the son of man will appear". No life would have survived the great tribulation unless it had been cut short (Matthew 24:22).
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
You make a very valid point. Determining which one is older would make a very good topic. It seems the history gets very murky at this point.

History is written by the victors. That would be the Romans of the time, and their Roman church, instituted by the Roman emperor Constantine in 325 AD , and officialized by the Roman emperor Theodosius in 380 AD.. The rest are mostly dead bodies in their wake.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Let's rather say this--you feel strongly that Jesus is giving proscriptive WORKS here, WORKS by which I MIGHT be saved, if I DO THEM. Do you want several hundred other verses on salvation APART from works?

The problem is that you must twist or undermine the whole of the testimony of Yeshua to make your point, or as 99% of your verses will be from the false prophet Paul, I will have to deduct points. Now listing several hundred quotes from Yeshua, which actually support your point, might be a good start, and then go on to explain what you are saved from. And then explain the "kingdom of heaven at hand, and what one must do to enter. Please give chapter and verse, and know you will be graded after you hand in your homework.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
History is written by the victors. That would be the Romans of the time, and their Roman church, instituted by the Roman emperor Constantine in 325 AD , and officialized by the Roman emperor Theodosius in 380 AD.. The rest are mostly dead bodies in their wake.

Then it is strange that they continue to exist and are going strong.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Then it is strange that they continue to exist and are going strong.

"Going strong", relative to what? Relatively strong in numbers compared to approximately 1.2 billion Roman Catholics, or 800,000 million Protestants? Hurrah for them for keeping their identity, but they survived because they didn't wake the lion.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
"Going strong", relative to what? Relatively strong in numbers compared to approximately 1.2 billion Roman Catholics, or 800,000 million Protestants? Hurrah for them for keeping their identity, but they survived because they didn't wake the lion.

There are an awful lot of Orthodox Christians in the world.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
There are an awful lot of Orthodox Christians in the world.

Yes, there are plenty of "Orthodox Christians" but they basically have they have the same canon, and are pretty much a mirror image of the Roman church, and numbered among Catholics. List of Christian denominations by number of members - Wikipedia

Should they have gone the way of Marcion, or Luther, they would have been excommunicated. Luther's translated bible excluded James, Revelation, Jude and Hebrews. The Orthodox push the limits, but not to the breaking point. Although on this forum, I seem to hear echos of Marcion, but seemingly from Protestants. I think the Protestants are the losers for excluding Maccabees and the others. Removing them from the apocryphal, is their loss. It is all kind of moot, for 2/3 of the NT is the tare seed, founded on the false prophet Paul's false gospel of grace. Without Maccabees, it seems some structure is lost, if just from a historical perspective.

Why does the Orthodox Bible have more books than the Catholic Bible?
the Carthaginian Biblical canon, which is thus TECHNICALLY binding on the modern Eastern Orthodox Church. :) Yet, in terms of practice, the Antiochian (and thus Byzantine) parts of the Eastern Orthodox Church continued to use pre-Carthaginian books in their local canons
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I was the tour photographer several weeks ago in Israel, when we read Matthew 5-7 aloud just outside the CHURCH OF THE BEATITUDES. Please don't say silly things!

Let's rather say this--you feel strongly that Jesus is giving proscriptive WORKS here, WORKS by which I MIGHT be saved, if I DO THEM. Do you want several hundred other verses on salvation APART from works?
I'm not at all being "silly" as the Sermon On the Mount contains myriads of "works" prescribed by Jesus. On top of that, it's not "works" by themselves that saves but "works" along with "belief".

What you are conflating is what Paul refers to as "works under the [Jewish] Law", which he says won't save. OTOH, "works" under Jesus' teachings clearly are to be done, and the Sermon contains the single longest list of them.

BTW, I was at that church as well.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
What you are conflating is what Paul refers to as "works under the [Jewish] Law", which he says won't save. OTOH, "works" under Jesus' teachings clearly are to be done, and the Sermon contains the single longest list of them.

And yet, Elijah, John the Baptist, was to come to restore the hearts of the children to their fathers, "remember the law of Moses My servant, even the statutes and ordinance which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel. (Malachi 4:4-6). The sermon on the mount, simply states one must be more righteous than the Pharisees, even if means tearing out your right eye (Matthew 5:29) to do so. It does not negate the Law, it simply requires more. When king David rules on "the land I gave to Jacob", Israel will be given a new hear and spirit, and keep the statutes and ordinances (Ezekiel 36:26-28) & (Ezekiel 37:24-25).

Malachi 4:4-6 "Remember the law of my servant Moses, the decrees and laws I gave him at Horeb for all Israel. 5"See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes. 6He will turn the hearts of the parents to their children, and the hearts of the children to their parents; or else I will come and strike the land with total destruction."
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
The sermon on the mount, simply states one must be more righteous than the Pharisees, even if means tearing out your right eye (Matthew 5:29) to do so.
It says a LOT more than that.

It does not negate the Law, it simply requires more.
The 613 Laws were and are only for Jews, not Gentiles, and the latter became gradually more dominant during the latter part of the 1st century by all indications.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Constantine, the instituter of your mother Roman church, instituted the day of rest, in the year 321 AD, to be on the day of the sun, in order to try and change the times and the law, as dictated in Daniel 7:24-25, by the "another king/beast", which would be the 7th head of the beast of Revelation 17:10. 2/3 of the NT is Paul and his associates, which would make the NT a majority of tare seed, and the leader of the "many" of Matthew 7:13. The tares are to be gathered out first (Matthew 13:30), but when harvest time arrives, the tares are not protected. That means anyone can do what that may with them, for they are the foundation of sand, and require a bit of little wind, rain, and flooding to take down their house (Matthew 7:24-27). The "end of the age" as determined by Daniel 12:10-13, is when "they finish shattering the power of the holy people", which was finished when "Jerusalem", and "Judah", were "restored" in 1967, when those with insight will understand, but the "wicked"/lawless, will not. Those that think they are wise and intelligent, will not understanding (Matthew 11:25). The fact that the unholy Roman church determined that your NT canon was holy, should have thrown up red flags. You can read Paul all you want, and eat things sacrificed to demons, but don't think someone is going to come and give you a gold star for it, and then say Paul is simply conveying the message given to him by James, for he is not. If you read Matthew 24:29, it is "immediately after the tribulation of those days" that "the son of man will appear". No life would have survived the great tribulation unless it had been cut short (Matthew 24:22).

My "mother Roman church..."?

I'm a JEWISH CHRISTIAN. I can NEVER be Roman. NEVER. This besides the fact that Rome's (awful, heretical) doctrine would be obliterated if they actually listened to Paul!

You are consistently quoting prophecies out of context. Suggest you review articles online detailing the errors of current anti-Pauline "scholarship".
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
The problem is that you must twist or undermine the whole of the testimony of Yeshua to make your point, or as 99% of your verses will be from the false prophet Paul, I will have to deduct points. Now listing several hundred quotes from Yeshua, which actually support your point, might be a good start, and then go on to explain what you are saved from. And then explain the "kingdom of heaven at hand, and what one must do to enter. Please give chapter and verse, and know you will be graded after you hand in your homework.

Why are you speaking to me rudely, not as a brother? ("know you will be graded after you hand in your homework")

I don't "owe you" homework, there are millions of saved people in America alone, and 99.99% of them read the New Testament, not four books of it only.

Yeshua saves us from perishing (John 3:16) via trust in Yeshua, not law-keeping (John 3:16).
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
I'm not at all being "silly" as the Sermon On the Mount contains myriads of "works" prescribed by Jesus. On top of that, it's not "works" by themselves that saves but "works" along with "belief".

What you are conflating is what Paul refers to as "works under the [Jewish] Law", which he says won't save. OTOH, "works" under Jesus' teachings clearly are to be done, and the Sermon contains the single longest list of them.

BTW, I was at that church as well.

Do you have a Bible verse that works, not trust, are salvific? A clear verse, since I have several hundred I'd be happy to present, starting with John 3:16, "Whoever TRUSTS shall NEVER PERISH"?

My comment regarding attendance at the Church of the Beatitudes was in response to your (misplaced) comment that "I never heard of the Beatitudes". The Beatitudes show we CANNOT be saved by works (be PERFECT as God, EXCEED Pharisees) not "here are works that save you when added to belief".
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Why are you speaking to me rudely, not as a brother? ("know you will be graded after you hand in your homework")

I don't "owe you" homework, there are millions of saved people in America alone, and 99.99% of them read the New Testament, not four books of it only.

Yeshua saves us from perishing (John 3:16) via trust in Yeshua, not law-keeping (John 3:16).

You make unverifiable claims, and yell ouch when called on it. And I certainly do not consider you a "brother". Your "brother" would be the false prophet Paul, or the "worthless shepherd", Peter (Zechariah 11:16-17), who will be dealt with in Matthew 13:39-42. As for "millions" of "saved people in America alone", you have still not defined what they are "saved" from. As for the reading the NT, well, as the NT is around 67% derived from the false prophet Paul and his associates, and is a mix of the tare seed, Paul's message of lawlessness, and the "good seed", the "word of the kingdom", I would think that the "many" (Matthew 7:13), who following the path of lawlessness (Matthew 7:23 & Matthew 13:41), are in for a rude awakening (Matthew 13:39-42). As for being graded on your homework, everyone is graded on what they say, for justification or condemnation. As for you and your "saved" "brothers", they deem the "unsaved" to hell, a judgment which will bite them on the tail. (Matthew 7:2)

As for John 3:16, it would be addressing those who believe in him, the him being the "Word" made flesh, that would be those who believe in the Word, not those who nail the Word to the cross.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
My "mother Roman church..."?

I'm a JEWISH CHRISTIAN. I can NEVER be Roman. NEVER. This besides the fact that Rome's (awful, heretical) doctrine would be obliterated if they actually listened to Paul!

You are consistently quoting prophecies out of context. Suggest you review articles online detailing the errors of current anti-Pauline "scholarship".

The "mother Roman Catholic church" (universal Christian church), is a "harlot" daughter of Babylon, and the mother of the "harlot" Protestant churches (Revelation 17:5), and the Jews are referred to as the "harlot" in Revelation 17:16, another harlot daughter of Babylon. Your "Christian" church, built on the teachings of Peter and Paul, the two horns like a lamb, was instituted by the Roman Emperor Constantine, the beast with two horns like a lamb (Revelation 13:11), in the year 325 AD. Your "leader", and "teacher", Paul claimed to be both a "Roman", a Gentile, and a Jew. Feel free to point out any "errors" I have presented. As for your "out of context", the Law and the prophets point to the "in that day", the day of the LORD, and what was will be again.(Ecclesiastes 1:9) And Matthew 27:9-10 specifically quotes from the prophet Zechariah 11:12-13 in respect to the shepherd Judas Iscariot. You might want to consider reading more from the Law and the prophets and less from "review articles".
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
The 613 Laws were and are only for Jews, not Gentiles, and the latter became gradually more dominant during the latter part of the 1st century by all indications.

Your number 613 comes from the Pharisees and the scribes. Both the "house of Israel", currently "scattered among the nations" (Ezekiel 36:24) and the "house of Judah" will keep "my statutes, and observe them after they are joined and ruled by "king" "David" (Ezekiel 37:15-14), on the "land I gave to Jacob". This happens after they are given a new heart and spirit (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

Ezekiel 36: 26“Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27“I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Why did Paul say that--there is more to the story than "eat whatever", and this from a Pharisee who ate according to the then-kosher laws.

The rest, again, is you specifying prophecy fulfillment that is not possible--since the NT scriptures are still scriptures:

How was Paul "gathered out"? Don't 99.999% of us read Paul, even secular commentators?

Did the age end, since Jesus said He would return at its end?

The sun shines daily, and worship is not for Sunday OR Saturday only...

The age did end.. No more Temple Judaism and animal sacrifices. The power of Jewish law in Palestine was finished. That may not seem like a big deal to us, but it was a very big deal to them. In fact.. it helps to know some first century history and try to put yourself in that world.

They really did suffer a horrible tribulation of famine and sickness, war and death like they had never known before.. Except for Jesus's gang, they went to Pella and avoided the tribulation.
 
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