If the Jewish Messiah has already come….

[Tumah]

I was going to write something similar but going verse by verse. The newness of this new covenant isn’t what is going to be revealed but how it’s going to be revealed. In the past it was written or transmitted orally. That is the same a proxy. (Where I started from in this thread) In the future it will be transmitted directly from God. Writing it on their hearts would be a direct transmission. My point is the Christian New Testament cannot possible be Jeremiah’s New Covenant regardless of its content for the simple fact it is written or transmitted orally. There is more I'm going to add in a while.

At this point, you may as well just convert. One of my rabbis is a mohel. The whole job could be done in time for Sabbath.

 

[roger1440]

At this point, you may as well just convert. One of my rabbis is a mohel. The whole job could be done in time for Sabbath.

No thanks, I like my ham and cheese sandwiches and have no interest in magic elevators. I just enjoy trying to figure out what scripture means. If it was all that easy I probably would have given up years ago.

 

[Tumah]

No thanks, I like my ham and cheese sandwiches and have no interest in magic elevators. I just enjoy trying to figure out what scripture means. If it was all that easy I probably would have given up years ago.

Haha, I'm just kidding.
But, magic elevators?

 

[roger1440]

Haha, I'm just kidding.
But, magic elevators?

A Shabbat elevator is an elevator which works in a special mode, operating automatically, to satisfy the Jewish law requiring Jews to abstain from operating electrical switches on Shabbat (the Sabbath).
Shabbat elevator - Wikipedia

 

[Tumah]

A Shabbat elevator is an elevator which works in a special mode, operating automatically, to satisfy the Jewish law requiring Jews to abstain from operating electrical switches on Shabbat (the Sabbath).
Shabbat elevator - Wikipedia

Oh, haha. I thought you were alluding to some weird mystical thing.
We (my own sect) don't use those except for people who can't walk. And even then only certain ones.

 

[Dawnofhope]

It should be noted that Jews are not expecting a new set of Laws according to that prophecy, but a change in the nature of how those Laws will be known.

Respectfully:
Why not? From a perusal of the Pentateuch there's some extremely dated laws. A New Covenant that affirms the essence of the Old Covenant but bringing new laws for the civilisation envisaged in Isaiah makes most sense.

"I gave My Torah in their midst (at Mt. Sinai) and on their hearts I will write it (under the new covenant)."

The Hebrews obviously despite clear instruction forgot their God including worshiping other Gods. One obvious way of looking at theses verses is that in the future His people will obey HIs commands for the love of God, and not out of fear. They will love to obey God and the New Covenant will inspire that love. They will no longer forget their God.

On the one hand you seem to want to keep the law as it is, on the other you want to dispense with the Sacred Texts altogether as God somehow or other talks directly to His people. At the very least you seem to be binding God's hands preventing His revealing further laws.

The Christians often make the error of interpreting the Gospels literally. I wonder if you are doing the same?

Your considered thoughts to these concerns are appreciated.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Not at all. I even have to love my enemies. I know people will disagree with me, including some Christians. The only ones I think less of are those who are rude, uncivil and insulting.

I've started a thread a couple of weeks ago in the scripture debate section inviting anyone interested to study the Olivet Discourse Mathew 24. These verses are no longer than Jeremiah 31 and has key references to Daniel and Isaiah. It could be an enlightening study for Christians and Jews or anyone else.

 

[Tumah]

Respectfully:
Why not? From a perusal of the Pentateuch there's some extremely dated laws. A New Covenant that affirms the essence of the Old Covenant but bringing new laws for the civilisation envisaged in Isaiah makes most sense.

From a similar perusal of Tanach, you will notice a relatively large number of verses commenting on the eternalness of the Laws of G-d. We do not believe the Laws of G-d are dated or ever will be.
There Laws are the essence of the Covenant and it stands eternal.

I'm not sure how you think changing the Laws will make more sense vis a vis the civilization prophesied by Isaiah.

The Hebrews obviously despite clear instruction forgot their God including worshiping other Gods. One obvious way of looking at theses verses is that in the future His people will obey HIs commands for the love of God, and not out of fear. They will love to obey God and the New Covenant will inspire that love. They will no longer forget their God.

The passage makes no comment about love or fear of G-d, nor is such an interpretation implicit. Its based on the Christian concept that the "old laws" were based on fear and the "new laws" are based on love. But we do not see it that way. I bring you Psalm 119 and Song of Songs as the greatest evidence of that.

On the one hand you seem to want to keep the law as it is, on the other you want to dispense with the Sacred Texts altogether as God somehow or other talks directly to His people.

The "Sacred Texts" only have value in that they convey the information G-d wants to give over. Its not the mundane words themselves that have meaning, but the information that they teach.

At the very least you seem to be binding God's hands preventing His revealing further laws.

We are taught that after Moses no prophet may convey new Laws. This is consistent with the eternal nature of the Laws.

The Christians often make the error of interpreting the Gospels literally. I wonder if you are doing the same?

There is a difference between a verse like Proverbs 9:1 that speaks of Wisdom hewing out 7 pillars and a passage like this. We know that Wisdom is not a physical thing that can hew stone. So there is a compelling reason to interpret this verse as a metaphor.
But here, the passage is clear and my interpretation is consistent with the rest of Tanach. What compelling reason is there to assume that the literal interpretation is not the correct one?

 

[omega2xx]

I've started a thread a couple of weeks ago in the scripture debate section inviting anyone interested to study the Olivet Discourse Mathew 24. These verses are no longer than Jeremiah 31 and has key references to Daniel and Isaiah. It could be an enlightening study for Christians and Jews or anyone else.

If I can find it and have time(a funny thing for someone retired to say) I will stick my 2 cents worst in. My 2 cents worth might worth a dime to someone.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I'm not sure how you think changing the Laws will make more sense vis a vis the civilization prophesied by Isaiah.

Should a man be stoned to death for working on the Sabbath?

 

[Tumah]

Should a man be stoned to death for working on the Sabbath?

If the conditions are fulfilled, yes of course.

 

[Dawnofhope]

The passage makes no comment about love or fear of G-d, nor is such an interpretation implicit. Its based on the Christian concept that the "old laws" were based on fear and the "new laws" are based on love. But we do not see it that way. I bring you Psalm 119 and Song of Songs as the greatest evidence of that.

I had been considering Deuteronomy 6:4-5, of course quoted in the Gospels as the greatest commandment. Do you think the response recorded by Jesus in Mark 12:28 was a wise answer or we could do better? Psalm 119 and Song of Songs certainly reflect beautifully, eloquently, and powerfully the love of God. There is no question that at times the Hebrew peoples loved their God.

 

[Tumah]

I had been considering Deuteronomy 6:4-5,

I had also. However that is only the command for love. The two SoS and Psa. 119 show that it was fulfilled as well.

of course quoted in the Gospels as the greatest commandment.

I don't particularly care what the NT says. So I'll take your word for it.

Do you think the response recorded by Jesus in Mark 12:28 was a wise answer or we could do better?

I am not familiar with that passage in the NT or pretty much the entire NT, nor am I interested in studying it.

Psalm 119 and Song of Songs certainly reflect beautifully, eloquently, and powerfully the love of God. There is no question that at times the Hebrew peoples loved their God.

Which illustrates that dividing the new covenant from the old covenant along the lines of fear and love are baseless.

 

[roger1440]

Respectfully:
Why not? From a perusal of the Pentateuch there's some extremely dated laws. A New Covenant that affirms the essence of the Old Covenant but bringing new laws for the civilisation envisaged in Isaiah makes most sense.

Give an example. What would you like added?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Give an example. What would you like added?

Institutions that derive their authority from the New Covenant and channels from Gods Grace and Guidance to humanity! Such an institution should exert a positive influence on the welfare of humankind, promote education, peace and global prosperity. It should safeguard human honour and the position of religion. It should be charged with applying the New Covenant teachings to the requirements of an ever-evolving society and be empowered to legislate on matters not explicitly covered in the Faith’s Sacred Texts. This guidance should ensure a vision for humanity that enables a spiritually and materially prosperous global civilization.

Is that too much to ask for?

Does Judaism or Christianity have such an institution as part of the Old Covenant or partially fulfilled New Covenant?

 

[Dawnofhope]

If the conditions are fulfilled, yes of course.

As a medical practitioner, under what circumstances might I risk punishment by death for tending to the sick on the Sabbath?

Which illustrates that dividing the new covenant from the old covenant along the lines of fear and love are baseless.

Agreed

 

[whirlingmerc]

If the Jewish Messiah has already come why hasn’t he made himself known? If the Messiah has made himself known, please explain how. Nowhere in Jewish or Christian scripture does it say he will be known by proxy. What I mean by “proxy” is one who speaks for another.

Actually immediately prior to Isaiah 53 there is a statement 'how beautiful on the mountains are the feet of those who bring good news' and the bringing of good news by others might be considered a type of proxy The man called branch introduced in Isaiah 11 as a descendant of Jesse who nations will hope in (aka messiah)

But in Zechariah regarding the man called branch
" I will remove the iniquity of this land in a single day. 10 In that day, declares the Lord of hosts, every one of you will invite his neighbor to come under his vine and under his fig tree.”
so neighbors will talk to neighbors (a type of proxy)
and later nations will talk to each other to worship God ( a type of proxy)

 

[Tumah]

As a medical practitioner, under what circumstances might I risk punishment by death for tending to the sick on the Sabbath?

As a non-Jew, by abstaining from tending to the sick on the Sabbath because it is the Sabbath and you are resting. But although that is the prescribed punishment for a non-Jew resting on the Sabbath its has a unique non-executable status (that is, even if we were capable of executing capital punishment). Other than that, never.

 

[whirlingmerc]

As a non-Jew, by abstaining from tending to the sick on the Sabbath because it is the Sabbath and you are resting. But although that is the prescribed punishment for a non-Jew resting on the Sabbath its has a unique non-executable status (that is, even if we were capable of executing capital punishment). Other than that, never.

As far as Sabbath miracles Jesus did seven (at least seven recorded)
see: Jesus Performed Seven Sabbath Miracles

The irony in the gospel was that the religious leaders went out and plotted his murder on the Sabbath and that's an example where fallen hearts were exposed. In the end was it really labor to say stretch out your hand and be healed?

Another irony is as Jesus pointed out, if an animal fell in a ditch on the Sabbath, you could pull it out.
But they were bent out of shape for healing a person worse off.

 

[Muffled]

Since you have been taught Jesus was not the Messiah because He didn't fulfill some you think He should have, You ignore the ones He did fulfill.

If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I AM, there you may be also---Jn 14:3

I believe He hasn't fulfilled that one yet.