If the Jewish Messiah has already come….

[Flankerl]

You know the Jewish guy listed Jeremiah 31:33 as one of the unfulfilled prophecies.

Messiah in Judaism - Wikipedia

You wanted someone who could relate it all to Jewish customs. There's your answer.

"The people of Israel will have direct access to the Torah through their minds and Torah study will become the study of the wisdom of the heart"

When did that happen?

 

[Dawnofhope]

I disagree with this characterization. The natures, relationships and underlying concepts are markedly different.

The Christians' Messiah will be the same one that fulfils all the messianic prophecies Tamud as provided.

Messiah in Judaism - Wikipedia

The Christians believe in the Gospels and so rely heavily on the language of these books. However the Messiah as Christian's understand Him still needs to fulfil the prophecies in the Tanakh as well. I think its important for Christians and Jews when talking to each other to rely as much as possible on the sacred texts both parties agree on to bridge this gap. The same goes for Baha'is. I have already had a stern rebuke from one Jew on this thread trying to answer a question using Christian scripture. I'll try to avoid doing the same again. I would appreciate your patience and openness to discuss these matters as I try to better understand your view of the world. There's not too many Jews in the part of the world I live in.

What do you see as being the main differences with Christians in regards the Messiah? What do you have in common with the Christians? Your considered thoughts on these matter are appreciated.

 

[Dawnofhope]

All are not lovers of the Almighty. That is clear just from some in this forum.

I wonder if you are thinking the worst of people because the disagree with you?

 

[Dawnofhope]

"The people of Israel will have direct access to the Torah through their minds and Torah study will become the study of the wisdom of the heart"

When did that happen?

It clearly hasn't. That's why I'm debating with a Christian why their Messiah has not fulfilled this prophecy in Jeremiah.

 

[rosends]

What do you see as being the main differences with Christians in regards the Messiah? What do you have in common with the Christians? Your considered thoughts on these matter are appreciated.

If historical Christianity is any guide, it appears that the Christian messianic concept has a (demi) deity vision whereas the Jewish idea is purely human. The Christian idea (if one reads the gospels) is based in a change in the nature of Judaism. The Jewish idea is a reinforcing of Judaism. The Christian idea would reject the Talmud and talmudic ideas. The Jewish one exists through the definition and explication of the Talmud.

 

[Dawnofhope]

No, I’m not Catholic. I’m just comparing Judaism with Catholicism. The Catholic Church has the Pope at the top. Judaism does not have anyone at the very top. The Catholic Church has a very specific doctrine found in there catechism. ALL Catholics must believe in that catechism in order to be a Catholic. But if you ask a Jew, “what is a Jew” you will get a different answer depending on what Jew you ask. So when someone quotes an author from web site saying the Messiah should do this that or the other thing my first question would be where did the author get his authority from? All modern day Jewish denominations are the descendants of the only surviving sect of Judaism from the 1st century. Therefore, all these denominations have a lot in common. But that wasn’t the case before the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. Judaism was much more diverse in the 1st century. They were not all on the same page on who or what is the Messiah.

“The pope (Latin: papa from Greek: πάππας pappas,[1] a child's word for "father")[2] is the Bishop of Rome and, therefore, the leader of the worldwide Catholic Church.[3] The primacy of the Roman bishop is largely derived from his role as the traditional successor to Saint Peter, to whom Jesus is supposed to have given the keys of Heaven and the powers of "binding and loosing", naming him as the "rock" upon which the church would be built. …. The Catholic Church teaches that the pastoral office, the office of shepherding the Church, that was held by the apostles, as a group or "college" with Saint Peter at their head, is now held by their successors, the bishops, with the bishop of Rome (the pope) at their head.”

Pope - Wikipedia

I'm in agreement with all that. How does it relate to Jeremiah?

 

[Dawnofhope]

If historical Christianity is any guide, it appears that the Christian messianic concept has a (demi) deity vision whereas the Jewish idea is purely human. The Christian idea (if one reads the gospels) is based in a change in the nature of Judaism. The Jewish idea is a reinforcing of Judaism. The Christian idea would reject the Talmud and talmudic ideas. The Jewish one exists through the definition and explication of the Talmud.

The Christians have misunderstood the Gospels, and have books and writings that read like Daniels visions. The only problem is they have either taken the language literally when it should be taken metaphorically, and/or tried to make it fit their man made doctrines.

My best understanding of what the human Messiah might resemble for the Jews is Moses. How would you recognise Him?

 

[rosends]

The Christians have misunderstood the Gospels, and have books and writings that read like Daniels visions. The only problem is they have either taken the language literally when it should be taken metaphorically, and/or tried to make it fit their man made doctrines.

My best understanding of what the human Messiah might resemble for the Jews is Moses. How would you recognise Him?

Big beard, lisp.

 

[Dawnofhope]

As I contemplate the plight of the Jewish peoples, Gods chosen people, tears roll down my eyes and my heart is seized with anguish! Truly

Of the Christian religion the Sun has become dimmed, the moon has run red with blood and no longer shines, and the stars have fallen from heaven. It is the religion of my ancestors. How deeply ashamed am I. Light years were my ancestors from the Divine Light of the Gospels. My heart turns stony cold in horror.

 

[roger1440]

I'm in agreement with all that. How does it relate to Jeremiah?

I’m slowly leading up to that. Besides all the sects and denominations over the last two or three thousand years there is the messianic prophecies themselves. Many are written in a type of poetry using metaphors, symbols and allegory. They are not found in one nice neat paragraph or book. The reader must piece together verses from different authors, written at different times, in different years, from different locations and found in different books. But we do have a general idea what they mean, the order which things will happen and the people who are involved in the story.

 

[psychoslice]

There will never be any so called Messiah, why do we need some god man from space to make us all live together, or to protect us, what is a wrong with us ?, are we all that stupid that we can't work it out for ourselves ?.....sadly it seems that is what is.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I’m slowly leading up to that. Besides all the sects and denominations over the last two or three thousand years there is the messianic prophecies themselves. Many are written in a type of poetry using metaphors, symbols and allegory. They are not found in one nice neat paragraph or book. The reader must piece together verses from different authors, written at different times, in different years, from different locations and found in different books. But we do have a general idea what they mean, the order which things will happen and the people who are involved in the story.

Agreed, continue please

 

[roger1440]

How does it relate to Jeremiah?

First we need to understand the role of the Jewish prophets. Sure they spoke for God and were able to foretell the future. These were only a means to an end. The end is to lead them to holiness. They are sort of a guide along the way. Jeremiah’s prophecy was written after Babylonian exile. While they were gone many Jews have gone astray. You name it, they did it, foreign gods, foreign women. Now it’s time to put their house in order. To move forward and not look back.

“See, a time is coming-declares the LoRD-when I will make a new covenant with the House of Israel and the House of Judah.” (Jeremiah 31:31)

At the time of this writing the Jews are broken up into two kingdoms, Judah and Israel. According to this verse God is addressing ONLY the Jews not Gentiles. In the future God will give the Jews a new covenant. At first glance it would appear God will give the Jews more stuff to learn or do. But that’s not the case. Is Jeremiah contradicting himself? No, not at all. He goes on to explain what this new covenant will be.

 

[Dawnofhope]

But that’s not the case. Is Jeremiah contradicting himself? No, not at all. He goes on to explain what this new covenant will be.

Thank you. Do you having anything further to say before I respond?

 

[Dawnofhope]

But that’s not the case. Is Jeremiah contradicting himself? No, not at all. He goes on to explain what this new covenant will be.

Thank you so much for taking the time to explain your thinking. It is a very clear, succinct, and compelling summary. I agree that Jesus fulfils this prophecy but only partially. The major problem is when we look at the next two verses that clearly have not been fulfilled.

How can that be? Prophecy that refers to two separate events? We need look no further than the last major sermon Jesus delivered on the Mount of Olives in the lead up to His Crucifixion. In these prophetic verses as He refers to the destruction of the temple and events that will follow, it becomes apparent that He is also talking about His Return in very distant future. Two major historic events woven together!

We would like prophecy to be clear and logical so men of learning are able to discern the signs. However it is from God and it simply does not work that way. It will be the Messiah that both Jews and Christians await which will fulfil 'all' the prophecies, and fulfil 'all' Jeremiah 31:31-34.

 

[Tumah]

It will be the Messiah that both Jews and Christians await which will fulfil 'all' the prophecies, and fulfil 'all' Jeremiah 31:31-34.

It should be noted that Jews are not expecting a new set of Laws according to that prophecy, but a change in the nature of how those Laws will be known.

This is also reflected in the grammatical construction of a portion of verse 32:
נתתי - I gave - its actually written in the past tense
את - direct object pointer
תורתי - My Torah
בקרבם - in their midst
ועל - and on
לבם - their hearts
אכתבנה - I will write it - this word is written in the future tense

So what it actually is saying is "I gave My Torah in their midst (at Mt. Sinai) and on their hearts I will write it (under the new covenant)."
That's the entire description of the new covenant in Jeremiah 31. The difference between the old covenant and the new one, is that the Torah that was given to us externally would be written into our hearts and minds. Because of that, no one will need to teach the Torah to anyone else anymore. Everyone would already know it internally. As opposed to today, we have to study the external Torah in order to internalize it.

The point being, we are also not waiting for the same type of fulfillment of this prophecy.

 

[omega2xx]

It can also mean pierced and I'm comfortable using all those words as the essential metaphor remains.

You don't understand what a metaphor is.

My JPS? I don't use it. My commentators do use that translation as well, and they certainly are reliable.

As I remember the JPS uses wounded but a piercing would cause a wound. Not a nickel's worth of difference.

Its not irrelevant, because it doesn't say that "an individual was crushed for our sins".

It applies to all who were crushed by sin, not to one individual.

Its what the whole chapter's about.

The Jews CAN'T meet the requirement of what is said. The sacrifice must be without spot of blemish and no Jew or Gentile is without sin.


]I'm reading it from commentaries made by experts in Hebrew who know the language better than your Hebrew experts.

You aren't making an argument here. Frankly you haven't made an argument at all because you are relying on your authorities to tell you what is correct because you can't verify anything for yourself. Ignorance is bliss after all and if you were able to read the text, you might ask some questions. So scary! Its better to remain ignorant and half faith in your translators who translated the text with the intent of validating the NT rather than objectively.

I rely on the integrity of scholars more qualified in Hebrew than you are. There is no guarantee your expertie is as good as you think it is.

 

[Tumah]

You don't understand what a metaphor is.[/quote]
I'm pretty sure I do. Its the implications of the metaphor that you're having trouble accepting.

As I remember the JPS uses wounded but a piercing would cause a wound. Not a nickel's worth of difference.

Technically there's a different word for wound. The word used here when translated as a wound, refers to having a hole made in the body as it stems from the root meaning "open space".

It applies to all who were crushed by sin, not to one individual.

I don't think you recall what your argument was. I was saying that the translation of the verse is "he was crushed from our sins" not "for our sins".

The Jews CAN'T meet the requirement of what is said. The sacrifice must be without spot of blemish and no Jew or Gentile is without sin.

There is no real sacrifice in this chapter. And Jesus wouldn't qualify as a real one in any case. The same laws that prohibit blemished animals, prohibit people as sacrifices.

I rely on the integrity of scholars more qualified in Hebrew than you are. There is no guarantee your expertie is as good as you think

You may want to speak to a doctor about getting that beam of wood out of your eye.

 

[omega2xx]

I wonder if you are thinking the worst of people because the disagree with you?

Not at all. I even have to love my enemies. I know people will disagree with me, including some Christians. The only ones I think less of are those who are rude, uncivil and insulting.

 

[roger1440]

It should be noted that Jews are not expecting a new set of Laws according to that prophecy, but a change in the nature of how those Laws will be known.

This is also reflected in the grammatical construction of a portion of verse 32:
נתתי - I gave - its actually written in the past tense
את - direct object pointer
תורתי - My Torah
בקרבם - in their midst
ועל - and on
לבם - their hearts
אכתבנה - I will write it - this word is written in the future tense

So what it actually is saying is "I gave My Torah in their midst (at Mt. Sinai) and on their hearts I will write it (under the new covenant)."
That's the entire description of the new covenant in Jeremiah 31. The difference between the old covenant and the new one, is that the Torah that was given to us externally would be written into our hearts and minds. Because of that, no one will need to teach the Torah to anyone else anymore. Everyone would already know it internally. As opposed to today, we have to study the external Torah in order to internalize it.

The point being, we are also not waiting for the same type of fulfillment of this prophecy.

I was going to write something similar but going verse by verse. The newness of this new covenant isn’t what is going to be revealed but how it’s going to be revealed. In the past it was written or transmitted orally. That is the same a proxy. (Where I started from in this thread) In the future it will be transmitted directly from God. Writing it on their hearts would be a direct transmission. My point is the Christian New Testament cannot possible be Jeremiah’s New Covenant regardless of its content for the simple fact it is written or transmitted orally. There is more I'm going to add in a while.