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If the Jewish Messiah has already come….
- Thread starter roger1440
- Start date
So is Isa 53 Messianic or not?
rosends
Well-Known Member
yes.
rosends
Well-Known Member
where?
No one can die for the sins of another.
That is because you reject the concept of an omnipoetent God by faith alone.
Tumah
Veteran Member
That's right.
Tumah
Veteran Member
All the Jews are the subject of Isa. 53. It never talks about dying for the sins of another.
He was pierced through for our transgressions.
He was crushed for our iniquities
He was cut off from the land of the living
He was with a rich man in His death
The Lord has cause the iniquity of us all to fall on Him.
Without doubt.
So how would we recognise the Messiah when He comes and what would constitute proof?
Where in scripture does it say I'm 9/10th Christian and you are 10/10th?
Jesus said he who is least is greatest and he who is first will later be last.
I prefer to avoiding judging souls and focusing on both scripture and rational arguments.
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Tumah
Veteran Member
Your translators use the translation of pierced, because the imagery makes you think of the NT's Jesus.. But the word מחלל can also mean fear/trembling and sick.
Anyways both of these translation are wrong. The מ prefix means "from" not "for".
והוא מחלל מפשענו - he was made sick from our sins
מדכא מעונתינו - was crushed from our sins
(The two types of sins listed here refer to two types of intentional sins that don't stem from desire.)
What its saying is that the the nations are admitting to their sins that caused suffering to Israel.
The land of Israel, from where Israel was exiled.
Incidentally David used this nickname as well in 116:9
You're reading that sentence wrongly. The second part goes back on the first word:
ויתן - את רשעים קברו
ואת עשיר במתיו
and he gave - [to the] wicked, his grave
____________- [to the] rich, with his deaths.
The same part of speech that is used in the first part is used in the second part. Without a verb before the direct object indicator (את) you need to go back to the previous verb and read it as though the verb is written again. You can do that in English too:
And he gave - his brother the radio
___________- and his sister the couch.
"Fall on him" is a kind of weird expression to use here. I guess they mean the way an enemy "falls upon" a person. Other instances are Ex. 5:3, 2 Sam. 1:15, 1 Kings 2:25 etc. The obvious meaning being, "an encounter that's not going to end well for someone".
Anyway, its saying that it was G-d who decreed that the nations sin against Israel [through causing suffering to them].
Tumah
Veteran Member
The fulfillment of all the Messianic prophecies would constitute proof.
This verse suggests being a sacrifice and atoning for the sins of others?
Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
I appreciate your educated thoughts on the matter.
The Christian story of Jesus' scarifice echos the story of Abrahams' willingness to scarife His son and the blessings that followed from obedience to God. The story of Abraham's willingness to sacrifice His son may suggest events to come and a break from long established Jewish traditions.
Thank you. After a brief review of the scripture the link refers to I unreservedly accept that Jesus did not fulfill these requirements and would refer to The Messiah Christians often refer to as the Second Coming of Christ. I'll certainly be reading further.
From your knowledge of the Hebrew Bible is there any possibility that prophetic books refer to two seperate events, one that concerns the Messiah coming, but also a prior event or events of great spiritual significance to the Jewish people?
Tumah
Veteran Member
First of all, its mistranslated. It says "from" nor "for".
That verse is voicing the hindsight of the nations (52:15). Here they are explaining what they thought. The Hebrew words used here for transgression and iniquity refer to specific types of sins. Transgression refers to sins out of evilness, and iniquity refers to sins our of mistaken outlook.
The word you are translating as "wounded" is actually no appropriate here. "Pierced", "sickened" or "trembling/scared" would be more accurate translations.
The verse is saying that Israel was pained from the nations' evilness (such as when Jews were denied good things for no reason other than being Jewish), and oppressed by the nations' wrong philosophy(such as when the nations attempted to convert Jews to other religions thinking it would be good for them).
Then it goes on to say, that nations convinced themselves that the only way for them to be at peace would be through the suffering of Israel and by striking Israel, they would be healed, ie. at peace. At this point, you should be thinking about the Nazi's Judenrein.
The Suffering Servant is Israel and this chapter encapsulates Jewish suffering throughout history. There is the exile (cut off from the land of living), antisemitism (despised and we held him worthless), persecution (this verse), etc.
The Christian story of Jesus' sacrifice was written with the Tanach opened in front of the authors as they decided how they would use its stories to validate their new character. Their favorite method was taking noble or wondrous deeds of personalities in the Tanach and ascribing similar ones to their main character.
Abraham is not G-d and doesn't deserve a capitalized H. Although there is a concept of "the deeds of the fathers are a sign for the children" in Judaism, that means that there would be Jewish fathers who would be willing to sacrifice their children to fulfill G-d's Will, just as Abraham sacrificed his child to fulfill G-d's Will. Which has happened:
Seeing no way out to safety most of the Jews chose to commit suicide in the keep. The alternatives were to renounce their faith and surrender to forced baptism or death at the hands of the mob. They were led by the wealthy Jew Josce and Rabbi Yomtob, a noted scholar, who had come to York from Joigny in France. After killing their wives and children they set fire to the wooden keep and killed themselves.
-York Massacre of 1190
-York Massacre of 1190
Tumah
Veteran Member
Sure. There's the prophecy in Daniel 2 about the fourth exile and Daniel 9 about the destruction of the Temple. Those have had great spiritual significance to the Jewish people.
But as to your not-so-circumspectly asking if there is any passage in Tanach that validates Christianity. No there are none.
roger1440
I do stuff
The covenants God had made with the Jews are everlasting. The teachings (Torah) of God to the Jews are complete. If they are complete then this “New Covenant” must be something other than some new stuff. The answer to what this “New Covenant” is is found within Jeremiah’s prophecy. Reread it several times.
There is a Greater Covenant and Lesser Covenant. The Greater Covenant is Eternal, the Lesser Covenant is the transient laws and practices according to the exigencies of each era. Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus all reaffirmed the Greater Covenant, while bringing a New Lesser Covenant. The Returned Christ brings a New Covenant that will fulfil Jeremiah's prophecy. Jesus clearly hasn't. If Jesus fulfilled the prophecy, where are all the Jews singing Jesus' praises?