If the Jewish Messiah has already come….

[roger1440]

There is a Greater Covenant and Lesser Covenant. The Greater Covenant is Eternal, the Lesser Covenant is the transient laws and practices according to the exigencies of each era. Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus all reaffirmed the Greater Covenant, while bringing a New Lesser Covenant. The Returned Christ brings a New Covenant that will fulfil Jeremiah's prophecy. Jesus clearly hasn't. If Jesus fulfilled the prophecy, where are all the Jews singing Jesus' praises?

Quote Jewish scripture to make your point. I have no idea where you are getting this from.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Sure. There's the prophecy in Daniel 2 about the fourth exile and Daniel 9 about the destruction of the Temple. Those have had great spiritual significance to the Jewish people.

But as to your not-so-circumspectly asking if there is any passage in Tanach that validates Christianity. No there are none.

Thank you for your well considered thoughts. Your answer to my question about Isaiah was excellent though of course I have a diffferent understanding.

A few more questions if you don't mind. Are then any other historic events after the destruction of the temple that you can link to the Tanach? Do you believe Jesus actually existed? How do you account for Christianity having flourished while Judaism appears to have floundered?

As a Baha'i I believe in the same God, Jesus, and Gospels the Christain do. I'm interested in how you view your Sacred Texts and history as like Christians these texts are scared for Baha'is too.

 

[roger1440]

How do you account for Christianity having flourished while Judaism appears to have floundered?

emperor Constantine

 

[Dawnofhope]

Quote Jewish scripture to make your point. I have no idea where you are getting this from.

Ge 9:8-17, Ge 15:9-21, Ge 17, Ex 19-24, Nu 25:10-31, 2Sa 7:5-16, Jer 31:31-34 !!!!!! but equally importantly alongside a general working knowledge of the Bible, science, world history, and of course creative thinking.

You tell me how Jesus The Christ (Christos) fulfils that Jeremiah prophecy. I'm all ears.

 

[Dawnofhope]

emperor Constantine

He did what emperors do? I thought you would be grateful as he spared a lot of early Christians from having independant thought. I wouldn't have last too long.

 

[Tumah]

Thank you for your well considered thoughts. Your answer to my question about Isaiah was excellent though of course I have a diffferent understanding.

There are a number of other interpretations given by Jewish commentators and that's fine. The only issue would be interpreting an individual into the chapter, rather than a collective. If you do that, you'll bump into a problem in verses 8 and 9 where the subject is referred to in the plural.

A few more questions if you don't mind. Are then any other historic events after the destruction of the temple that you can link to the Tanach?

I just showed you how virtually our whole exile of the past 2,000 years can be linked to Isa. 53 (and Deut. 28). After the destruction of the Temple and the exile of the people, there haven't been any other significant events that don't fall into those chapters.

Do you believe Jesus actually existed?

Yes, the Talmud does have an account of him. I believe he existed about 75 years earlier than the NT says he does and the NT authors based their stories on a historical figure that they embelished.

How do you account for Christianity having flourished while Judaism appears to have floundered?
We are in exile because of our sins. The only assurance that we have from G-d is that we'll be persecuted often, and we'll never be wiped out. We haven't floundered, we've endured our exile.

Christians, Muslims and all other religions are not in exile for their sins. They're living the only life that's available for them and they are playing whatever part G-d has set them up for.

As a Baha'i I believe in the same God, Jesus, and Gospels the Christain do. I'm interested in how you view your Sacred Texts and history as like Christians these texts are scared for Baha'is too.

Yes, I've heard about it. Its just another replacement theology like the Christians and Muslims have. You pick the parts of the previous religion that fit your theology and the rest gets tossed out as mistakes that crept into the system.

 

[roger1440]

Ge 9:8-17, Ge 15:9-21, Ge 17, Ex 19-24, Nu 25:10-31, 2Sa 7:5-16, Jer 31:31-34 !!!!!! but equally importantly alongside a general working knowledge of the Bible, science, world history, and of course creative thinking.

You tell me how Jesus The Christ (Christos) fulfils that Jeremiah prophecy. I'm all ears.

It's a long story, but you first have to get out of God knocked up some hot Jewish chick mode.

 

[Dawnofhope]

It's a long story, but you first have to get out of God knocked up some hot Jewish chick mode.

I've never been in that mode. Lets hear it.

 

[Dawnofhope]

It's a long story, but you first have to get out of God knocked up some hot Jewish chick mode.

You know the Jewish guy listed Jeremiah 31:33 as one of the unfulfilled prophecies.

Messiah in Judaism - Wikipedia

You wanted someone who could relate it all to Jewish customs. There's your answer.

 

[roger1440]

You know the Jewish guy listed Jeremiah 31:33 as one of the unfulfilled prophecies.

Messiah in Judaism - Wikipedia

You wanted someone who could relate it all to Jewish customs. There's your answer.

You have to understand something about Judaism. It has no head Jew calling the shots. It’s not like the Catholic Church and the Pope.

 

[Dawnofhope]

You have to understand something about Judaism. It has no head Jew calling the shots. It’s not like the Catholic Church and the Pope.

I wouldn't regard the Catholic Church as God's Kingdom on earth. Are you Catholic?

 

[rosends]

You know the Jewish guy listed Jeremiah 31:33 as one of the unfulfilled prophecies.

But what is put in the hearts is identical to what was originally given. The difference is in the people and their acceptance, not the terms. TO accept this as a messianic prophecy is to accept the Torah laws with no abrogation, as understood by Judaism, to whom these laws were given and under the laws of which Jeremiah made his prophecy.

 

[omega2xx]

Where in scripture does it say I'm 9/10th Christian and you are 10/10th?

Jesus said he who is least is greatest and he who is first will later be last.

I prefer to avoiding judging souls and focusing on both scripture and rational arguments.

Some hyperbole is for amusement. Of course the Bible does t says anyone is 9"10 saved, but it does say who is 100% saved---If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved--Rom 10:9.

Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved---Rom 10:13

I can judge your soul from what you have said. That does not mean what you have said is enough to judge it completely. There are no rational arguments in spiritual truths. However all spiritual truths are literally true.

 

[Dawnofhope]

But what is put in the hearts is identical to what was originally given. The difference is in the people and their acceptance, not the terms. TO accept this as a messianic prophecy is to accept the Torah laws with no abrogation, as understood by Judaism, to whom these laws were given and under the laws of which Jeremiah made his prophecy.

I must say that of all the posts in this thread the one's by Tumad have been the clearest and most compelling. Without the least hesitation I accept that Jesus did not fulfil most of the prophecies outlined in the link provided. The Jews and Christians are waiting for the same Messiah to come. It is my understanding that the Jews, not the Christians will be the first to recognise Him.

This is an extremely important matter we are discussing (and for all Abrahamic Faiths) as it concerns no less than the Eternal Covenant of God.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Some hyperbole is for amusement. Of course the Bible does t says anyone is 9"10 saved, but it does say who is 100% saved---If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved--Rom 10:9.

Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved---Rom 10:13

I can judge your soul from what you have said. That does not mean what you have said is enough to judge it completely. There are no rational arguments in spiritual truths. However all spiritual truths are literally true.

For the record I grew up a Presbyterian and attended Sunday school. We all have our yardsticks by which we measure each other and ourselves. Jesus freed us from that when He said "take the log out of your own eye so you can clearly see to remove the speck from your brothers." "Judge not lest ye be judged." We are all lovers of the Almighty.

 

[omega2xx]

Your translators use the translation of pierced, because the imagery makes you think of the NT's Jesus.. But the word מחלל can also mean fear/trembling and sick.
Anyways both of these translation are wrong. The מ prefix means "from" not "for".

It can also mean "pierced," and should be when the passages is abut the crucifixion. You want it to have another meaning to keep it from being associated with the crucifixion of the Messiah

[QUOTE - he was made sick from our sins[/QUOTE]

That is a questionable translation of the word and your JPS does not use it.

מדכא מעונתינו] - was crushed from our sins
(The two types of sins listed here refer to two types of intentional sins that don't stem from desire.)

Irrelevant. It says an individual was crushed for our sins.

]What its saying is that the the nations are admitting to their sins that caused suffering to Israel.

It does not say or even hint at that.

The land of Israel, from where Israel was exiled.
Incidentally David used this nickname as well in 116:9


You're reading that sentence wrongly. The second part goes back on the first word:
ויתן - את רשעים קברו
ואת עשיר במתיו
and he gave - [to the] wicked, his grave
____________- [to the] rich, with his deaths.
The same part of speech that is used in the first part is used in the second part. Without a verb before the direct object indicator (את) you need to go back to the previous verb and read it as though the verb is written again. You can do that in English too:
And he gave - his brother the radio
___________- and his sister the couch.

I am reading it from a translation made by experts in Hebrew who know the language better than you do.

"Fall on him" is a kind of weird expression to use here. I guess they mean the way an enemy "falls upon" a person. Other instances are Ex. 5:3, 2 Sam. 1:15, 1 Kings 2:25 etc. The obvious meaning being, "an encounter that's not going to end well for someone".
Anyway, its saying that it was G-d who decreed that the nations sin against Israel [through causing suffering to them].

It is not weird and even a cave man with a 2 digit I can understand it. You just make up stuff to avoid the obvious.

 

[rosends]

The Jews and Christians are waiting for the same Messiah to come.

I disagree with this characterization. The natures, relationships and underlying concepts are markedly different.

 

[omega2xx]

For the record I grew up a Presbyterian and attended Sunday school. We all have our yardsticks by which we measure each other and ourselves. Jesus freed us from that when He said "take the log out of your own eye so you can clearly see to remove the speck from your brothers." "Judge not lest ye be judged." We are all lovers of the Almighty.

For the record I grew up as as non-believer and became a conservative Presbyterian at age 45. I have only judged you by your words. If someone say they are a Christian, I will accept their soul is pure. If someone says they are a non-beleiver, the Bible says their soul is not pure. I try to let the Bible speak for me, I do not have the ability to look into a man's heart and see what his relationship with God is.

All are not lovers of the Almighty. That is clear just from some in this forum.

 

[Tumah]

It can also mean "pierced," and should be when the passages is abut the crucifixion. You want it to have another meaning to keep it from being associated with the crucifixion of the Messiah

It can also mean pierced and I'm comfortable using all those words as the essential metaphor remains.

That is a questionable translation of the word and your JPS does not use it.

My JPS? I don't use it. My commentators do use that translation as well, and they certainly are reliable.

Irrelevant. It says an individual was crushed for our sins.

Its not irrelevant, because it doesn't say that "an individual was crushed for our sins".

It does not say or even hint at that.

Its what the whole chapter's about.

I am reading it from a translation made by experts in Hebrew who know the language better than you do.

I'm reading it from commentaries made by experts in Hebrew who know the language better than your Hebrew experts.

It is not weird and even a cave man with a 2 digit I can understand it. You just make up stuff to avoid the obvious.

You aren't making an argument here. Frankly you haven't made an argument at all because you are relying on your authorities to tell you what is correct because you can't verify anything for yourself. Ignorance is bliss after all and if you were able to read the text, you might ask some questions. So scary! Its better to remain ignorant and half faith in your translators who translated the text with the intent of validating the NT rather than objectively.

 

[roger1440]

I wouldn't regard the Catholic Church as God's Kingdom on earth. Are you Catholic?

No, I’m not Catholic. I’m just comparing Judaism with Catholicism. The Catholic Church has the Pope at the top. Judaism does not have anyone at the very top. The Catholic Church has a very specific doctrine found in there catechism. ALL Catholics must believe in that catechism in order to be a Catholic. But if you ask a Jew, “what is a Jew” you will get a different answer depending on what Jew you ask. So when someone quotes an author from web site saying the Messiah should do this that or the other thing my first question would be where did the author get his authority from? All modern day Jewish denominations are the descendants of the only surviving sect of Judaism from the 1st century. Therefore, all these denominations have a lot in common. But that wasn’t the case before the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. Judaism was much more diverse in the 1st century. They were not all on the same page on who or what is the Messiah.

“The pope (Latin: papa from Greek: πάππας pappas,[1] a child's word for "father")[2] is the Bishop of Rome and, therefore, the leader of the worldwide Catholic Church.[3] The primacy of the Roman bishop is largely derived from his role as the traditional successor to Saint Peter, to whom Jesus is supposed to have given the keys of Heaven and the powers of "binding and loosing", naming him as the "rock" upon which the church would be built. …. The Catholic Church teaches that the pastoral office, the office of shepherding the Church, that was held by the apostles, as a group or "college" with Saint Peter at their head, is now held by their successors, the bishops, with the bishop of Rome (the pope) at their head.”

Pope - Wikipedia