If there is a life after death.....

[David1967]

Given that the people I love and care about, are not christians or muslims, are, according to christians and muslims, going to hell for eternal punishment, for the crime of not believing in their gods.
Then that's where I am going.
I don't care whether I've been "saved" or not. I go were they go. End of.

I do hope that God is not nearly as angry as what I was raised to believe.

 

[Bthoth]

I appreciate you pointing out that he came to speak and bear the truth........

How can anyone speak against jesus?

Luke 18:18 A certain ruler asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

19 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. 20 You know the commandments: ‘You shall not commit adultery, you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.’


The problem is not Jesus, it is what was written about him by a plethora of people imposing additions, revisions and trying to speak for him. To read bible I find that He reaffirmed that following the rules is a choice that each and everyone can make all by themselves.

Love what he did but be careful about misrepresenting.

For example: nothing undoes a sin.

 

[Bthoth]

This is entirely your opinon, not based on anyone who studies the Word or seriously scrutinizes the WORD. Having said that, are you aware of anything in the New Testament letters/books, i.e. I and II Timothy, Ephesians, Galatians, Philippians, Romans, I and II Thessalonians, Titus, I and II Corinthians, all written by the Apostle Paul that contradict the four gospels or any other book for that matter, written by John, Peter, James and John?

Plethora of writers.. I know. When I first read bible, I wanted to know-learn the 'how too'. The wisdom is the importance, not the church.

And I agree, not much of what I write is based on what others understand perhaps because the people that are a part of the religion, want to believe. Anyone can comprehend what I write with enough material information to measure.

Even you comprehended what I wrote just about immediately.

Thank you for confirming that my opinion is unique.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

You say none of your beliefs are faith based, so you have no belief of how we (mankind) came to be, why we are here on this earth and if there is life after death on this earth?

My beliefs in those areas like all others is limited to what I can know about them empirically. It's as possible to make critical though as much an automatic habit of thought as saying please and thank you, and just as it's possible to go through life never failing to thank others when called for, it is possible to never simply believe any idea without sufficient empirical support.

My belief on how mankind came to be and why we are here on earth is that we probably exist as the result of naturalistic abiogenesis and biological evolution, but deity cannot be ruled out. Deity is less likely to be the correct answer since any supernaturalistic hypothesis requires the existence of an unseen aspect of reality, whereas the naturalistic hypothesis only requires known substances organizing themselves according to known laws of chemistry.

There is no faith involved in that statement of belief. It is all based in experience and reason. Where faith comes in is when we try to go further than that, which means guessing that one of these is necessarily true making the other false. I don't need to do that and don't want to do that.

Life after death is a misnomer unless you mean reincarnation. Abrahamic theology promises consciousness after death. My answer there would look like this one. I'm agnostic on the possibility but consider it more likely that consciousness is permanently extinguished at death for similar reasons to the above. I see no mechanism for disembodied mind to exist, and the hypothesis that it does requires extra aspect of reality to exist is less parsimonious than one that doesn't.

 

[Little Dragon]

I see no mechanism for disembodied mind to exist, and the hypothesis that it does requires extra aspect of reality to exist is less parsimonious than one that doesn't.

True. If there were additional physical parameters, as yet undiscovered, that could permit somehow, a mind to persist, like some sort of imprint or impression in the matrix of reality itself, then maybe. However, there is little to nothing to test in that respect, since we have little to no idea of what we would be looking for, that could be responsible.
Ghost hunters that I am friends with assure me that there must be however, something else, to explain their collective and shared experiences.
I try to think about it scientifically and not just dismissively. Although I am skeptical. That physics can answer this question.

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

Is not what you describe simply self-awareness ─ the sense of self?

The nature of consciousness has been much studied, with added emphasis in and after WW2 because better anesthetics became available then. If the daily phenomenon of sleep is not enough to persuade, the ability of administered chemicals (eg anesthetics) to induce unconsciousness points to consciousness being the product of the bioelectrical and biochemical processes of the brain. (In a more general form, this was asserted by various schools of philosophy as well, not least those opposed to Cartesian dualism; what science is adding is the 'how'.)

Can you give a satisfactory demonstration of a credible alternative? If so, please do.

I’m a retired psychologist and came into faith late(ish) in life (raised atheist, in a secular environment). Consciousness and self-awareness is still the “self” to me today. Our consciousness and sense of self cannot outlive our bodies, I agree.
But the “soul”, to me, is not our sense of self. The soul is “spirit” and free from self.

As for giving proof/evidence of my faith being “true”; I do not think that possible. I’d say that faith is seldom genuinely passed on from one person to another. Instead, faith is born through one’s own interpretation of personal experiences and is nurtured via practice of the mission it commits one to. Unlike logic or information, faith is simply not a matter of “truths” to be proven by one individual to another.

Humbly,
Hermit

 

[Bthoth]

I’m a retired psychologist and came into faith late(ish) in life (raised atheist, in a secular environment). Consciousness and self-awareness is still the “self” to me today. Our consciousness and sense of self cannot outlive our bodies, I agree.
But the “soul”, to me, is not our sense of self. The soul is “spirit” and free from self.

Thank you for the simplicity.

The conscious mind is bound to the body.

The spirit is the life, the living system. The life/living process can be conveyed via procreation (sperm/egg) and survive into the next generation(s).

I wanted to add that simple part as the methodology will bridge within an educated mind.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Given that the people I love and care about, are not christians or muslims, are, according to christians and muslims, going to hell for eternal punishment, for the crime of not believing in their gods.
Then that's where I am going..

It's not about what people with various creeds think..
It is about our intentions and deeds .. and we have a conscience.

 

[Bthoth]

It's not about what people with various creeds think..
It is about our intentions and deeds .. and we have a conscience.

Yep and each are responsible for their own actions.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Ghost hunters that I am friends with assure me that there must be however, something else, to explain their collective and shared experiences. I try to think about it scientifically and not just dismissively.

That's a good attitude. That's open-mindedness.

I am skeptical. That physics can answer this question.

Why wouldn't we be able to answer the question of whether ghosts exist if they do? Is there anything true about all things that exist that is untrue about all things that don't? In other words, what are we saying when we say that this exists but that doesn't. Consider wolves and werewolves (I'm assuming that the latter don't exist for the sake of discussion). What's true about all wolves that is untrue about werewolves? My answer is that wolves can interact with other things that exist some place at some time, but werewolves are just fictions that don't modify reality anywhere ever. The idea of werewolves modifies reality. People make movies about them, but because there is nothing outside of minds corresponding to the idea of a werewolf, nothing changes due to werewolves. Wolves can change reality in a place they are at in the time they're there, and they can be seen doing it, but nothing can be correctly attributed to the action of werewolves.

So which are ghosts - real like wolves or fictions like werewolves? I'd need to see a ghost modifying some aspect of reality to include them as real. If the ghost can't be produced, I'd need a reason to believe that whatever action is being attributed to one wasn't caused by something else. Now consider your comment in the light of that. Physics (I'll use the word empiricism) can tell us that wolves exist but can neither demonstrate that werewolves exist nor demonstrate that they cannot and do not even if they don't. That's fine. The claim that werewolves don't exist is unfalsifiable, meaning that it may be the case yet not demonstrably be the case.

The critically thinking empiricist will treat all claims like those about ghosts, werewolves, gods and angels in the same way. He is agnostic about their existence but lives as if they don't exist, which is a reasonable choice for that which leaves no clear indication that it does exist. Dark matter would have fallen into this category before the discoveries that led to positing its existence (galactic dynamics and the large-scale structure of the universe as filaments of galaxies separated by immense voids).

That elevated whatever dark matter is to the status of something that affects other aspects of reality at specific times and places including here now. In other words, it can now be considered real. It always was, but before the observations were made that required positing a gravitational source that doesn't emit photons, there was nothing for the idea to explain and therefore would be useless even if we guessed correctly about its existence, and it would be appropriate to treat it like gods and ghosts - maybe it exists, but I would have no reason to believe it does and would treat dark matter the way I do gods and ghosts, and though I would be ignorant of dark matter's existence, there would be no cost to that before I needed the idea to explain something observed.

It's not about what people with various creeds think..
It is about our intentions and deeds .. and we have a conscience.

That sounds like something an atheistic humanist might say.

 

[Bthoth]

That sounds like something an atheistic humanist might say.

Civil society requires people to be responsible for their own actions, Necessarily So!

Accepting Jesus does not mean attacking a person or labeling them atheist (false witness) because they do not accept your belief, that jesus died for your sins.

A truly sick aspect of your method, is that you accept and believe jesus died for your sins but then keep sinning!

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Civil society requires people to be responsible for their own actions

Yes. But the attitude M_I expressed is not consistent with Abrahamic theology. Abrahamics concern themselves very much with the commandments of their specific creeds. Right and wrong aren't decided by conscience but by compliance with those commandments.

Accepting Jesus does not mean attacking a person or labeling them atheist (false witness) because they do not accept your belief, that jesus died for your sins.

It seems you think that I am a Christian and Called M-I an atheist. If so, those are both incorrect. I'm an atheistic humanist myself and he is very much an Abrahamic theist - a blend of Christianity and Islam, I believe. His words were another example of how atheistic humanism is modifying Abrahamism. The two are gradually coming together. Christianity has been affected for several centuries, and has largely abandoned the mythology of Genesis, acknowledged that slavery is immoral, acknowledged that killing witches is barbaric, and embraced humanist principles such as democracy and women's rights (I believe most Christians support access to safe, legal abortion and the right to vote and to speak in church). Hell theology and homophobia are softening in the Christian community thanks to the modifying effect of humanist values as well notwithstanding recent relapses in the States.

Islam has been subjected to much less of this for many fewer years, but M-I is living in the West - the UK, I believe - and his comment sounds different than what I would expect from a typical Muslim in the Middle East or any other Muslim I've read here on RF.

A truly sick aspect of your method, is that you accept and believe jesus died for your sins but then keep sinning!

Is this about me? I don't accept Christian dogma. The literal meaning of sin is something I don't believe exists. If a person like Jesus of the New Testament existed, he was human and couldn't die for anybody's sins.

 

[Saved by grace 2]

In what sense can a person be "the truth"?

I'd say that truth was a quality of statements, and that a statement was true to the extent that it corresponded with / accurately reflected objective reality.

How do you define "truth" such a that person can be "the truth"?

 

[Little Dragon]

It is about our intentions and deeds .. and we have a conscience.

Even if the sun shined out of my butt and God told me I was his/her absolute favourite ever and closest to the mark of human perfection than any other, that my place was by his/her side for all eternity, and was offering me a golden ticket to 1st tier heaven.

I would have to politely refuse the offer, and asked him/her to send me to hell or purgatory or limbo or Hades or wherever, so I can be with those I love whom are not granted access to heaven, for whatever reasons, that may be.

My conscience and deeds are irrelevant. If my loved ones continue to exist in hell, then that's where I am going.

If that makes any sense to you.

 

[Saved by grace 2]

Very good question, and I am not totally qualified to answer this thoroughly, but I will try. Jesus said he IS the Truth, and I believe we can understand it in this way.

He said he created all things, to accept that means that the world/universe that exists and that we live in, was designed by him. He established how things work and they,.i.e. sun moon, our atmosphere, the oceans, gravity, fire, etc. all of them were created by design and for purpose.

Proverbs 3:19-20 says "The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens.

NOW LET ME PLEASE INTERJECT to help understand my point!!
We humans were also created for a reason, with purpose, designed by God. But at the same time we have the ability/power to choose to obey or not. The results of our disobedience to God's design are hatred, murder, greed, theft, guilt, shame , regret and many more egregious things . And why because they are contrary to the way we are designed. But free will gets in the way of God 's design and the results are all the terrible things in this world.
Now Take a train for example, it is designed for a purpose to move materials, liquids , people etc, from one location to another. And although it is very powerful and can be very productive for society, that would drastically change if it jumped off the track designed for it move on. It then becomes useless to the point it can't function as it was originally designed. Not atleast until it GETS BACK ON TRACK

Why do I say all this, because he is emphasizing that there is No thought, belief, object, that is right, that is profitable, whether material or spiritual that he did not create. So then for anyone to say there are other beliefs, truths, objects that were somehow made by something or someone else, they are wrong. It is not truth, but a Lie, and regrettably all of us have chosen to do and believe things our way opposed to God's.

Jesus as creator Dictates Truth. Determines Truth. Anything is either counterfeit or in direct opposite to the Truth if it is against or opposite to what JESUS HAS SPOKEN. After all there is nothing that exists that was not created by him, so he alone establishes what is right and what is wrong. What is and what isn't. It is impossible for him to speak anything BUT TRUTH. Because by definition everything he speaks is his design and has it's origin in the one who created all living things.

 

[Little Dragon]

Very good question, and I am not totally qualified to answer this thoroughly, but I will try. Jesus said he IS the Truth, and I believe we can understand it in this way.

He said he created all things, to accept that means that the world/universe that exists and that we live in, was designed by him. He established how things work and they,.i.e. sun moon, our atmosphere, the oceans, gravity, fire, etc. all of them were created by design and for purpose.

Proverbs 3:19-20 says "The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens.

NOW LET ME PLEASE INTERJECT to help understand my point!!
We humans were also created for a reason, with purpose, designed by God. But at the same time we have the ability/power to choose to obey or not. The results of our disobedience to God's design are hatred, murder, greed, theft, guilt, shame , regret and many more egregious things . And why because they are contrary to the way we are designed. But free will gets in the way of God 's design and the results are all the terrible things in this world.
Now Take a train for example, it is designed for a purpose to move materials, liquids , people etc, from one location to another. And although it is very powerful and can be very productive for society, that would drastically change if it jumped off the track designed for it move on. It then becomes useless to the point it can't function as it was originally designed. Not atleast until it GETS BACK ON TRACK

Why do I say all this, because he is emphasizing that there is No thought, belief, object, that is right, that is profitable, whether material or spiritual that he did not create. So then for anyone to say there are other beliefs, truths, objects that were somehow made by something or someone else, they are wrong. It is not truth, but a Lie, and regrettably all of us have chosen to do and believe things our way opposed to God's.

Jesus as creator Dictates Truth. Determines Truth. Anything is either counterfeit or in direct opposite to the Truth if it is against or opposite to what JESUS HAS SPOKEN. After all there is nothing that exists that was not created by him, so he alone establishes what is right and what is wrong. What is and what isn't. It is impossible for him to speak anything BUT TRUTH. Because by definition everything he speaks is his design and has it's origin in the one who created all living things.

So let me get this right. Your God gave humanity "free will" and then finds that problematic because it interferes with his grand design? The same God who knew the outcome of every action and inaction that would ever be taken by every living thing, before they even existed. That he himself "created"?

That is not rational behaviour.

 

[Trailblazer]

My conscience and deeds are irrelevant. If my loved ones continue to exist in hell, then that's where I am going.

I feel the same way, although I don't think I have any loved ones in hell, nor do I believe that hell is a geographical location where people go.
My father was an atheist when he died, but I don't think he is in hell.

 

[muhammad_isa]

That sounds like something an atheistic humanist might say..

Mmmm .. maybe we have more in common than you might realise..

 

[muhammad_isa]

My conscience and deeds are irrelevant. If my loved ones continue to exist in hell, then that's where I am going.

If that makes any sense to you.

No .. it just sounds like a person who "cuts off their nose to spite their face".

 

[Little Dragon]

I feel the same way, although I don't think I have any loved ones in hell, nor do I believe that hell is a geographical location where people go.
My father was an atheist when he died, but I don't think he is in hell.

I don't believe in hell either, unless the afterlife is lonely and dark for some, because they were such colossal jerks in life.