If we ask God for Proof we must be content with one proof.

[QuestioningMind]

Do you think you could be content with one proof?

This extract from the Kitab-i-iqan by Baha'u'llah first addresses why we reject a Messenger

"...It is evident that the changes brought about in every Dispensation constitute the dark clouds that intervene between the eye of man’s understanding and the divine Luminary which shineth forth from the dayspring of the divine Essence. Consider how men for generations have been blindly imitating their fathers, and have been trained according to such ways and manners as have been laid down by the dictates of their Faith. Were these men, therefore, to discover suddenly that a Man, Who hath been living in their midst, Who, with respect to every human limitation, hath been their equal, had risen to abolish every established principle imposed by their Faith—principles by which for centuries they have been disciplined, and every opposer and denier of which they have come to regard as infidel, profligate and wicked—they would of a certainty be veiled and hindered from acknowledging His truth.…"

Then He adds that the darkest veils become the teachings and traditions

"....It behooveth us, therefore, to make the utmost endeavor, that, by God’s invisible assistance, these dark veils, these clouds of Heaven-sent trials, may not hinder us from beholding the beauty of His shining Countenance, and that we may recognize Him only by His own Self..."

It is the Self of the Messengers that become the greatest way we can recognise God.

".....And should we ask for a testimony of His truth, we should content ourselves with one, and only one, that thereby we may attain unto Him Who is the Fountainhead of infinite grace, and in Whose presence all the world’s abundance fadeth into nothingness, that we may cease to cavil at Him every day and to cleave unto our own idle fancy...." — The Kitáb-i-Íqán

That is the OP, it appears if we want proof, then we should ask of only One and be content with it.

Would One proof be sufficient for you?

Bonus question if you want to share, "What proof could we possibly ask"?

I am aware of stories of what some people have asked and that some also were not content with just one.

Many had private thoughts and challenges that they expected to be answered without asking the question.

Thus another question, if you want to share is, "if someone could always do this, is it proof of Divinity, would it convince you"?

Regards Tony

I agree... IF we define proof as undeniable evidence. But when it comes to a god claims, all I ever hear is a bunch of very poor evidence. And even if you have thousands of pieces of very poor evidence, it will NEVER end up equaling actual proof.

So go ahead and offer up some ACTUAL PROOF and I'll become a believer.

 

[Trailblazer]

If God were to actually exist, how could it possibly be that his existence could only be demonstrated in one way?

I do not think that if God were to actually exist, that his existence could be demonstrated in any way.
That means I do not think there is any proof, only evidence.
Evidence is not proof.

 

[Alien826]

I didn't answer the questionnaire as i didn't think any option was suitable.

Me too, though the one about the magician came close. I'll expand on that further down.

If a god or gods existed they would know how to prove their existence in every different way, that is one of the advantages of Omni everything.

That's one that theists have an easy answer for. God doesn't want us to have proof, because that would remove free will. Unfortunately that doesn't make sense for lots of reasons, my favorite being that God supposedly punishes us for not believing, having made the test so hard that many will fail.

No god has proven their existence. No messenger has demonstrated the existence of the god/gods they favoure.

No proselytizing has ever convinced me there may actually be something to it.

My view is, if proof (that's real proof, not hearsay evidence but proof) is shown then i will examine it an decide on its merits.

The trouble with "proof" is that it's impossible in the end. Yes, God could do magic tricks, even things no human can currently do, like turning dust into a living being, but that, though impressive, only demonstrates a very advanced technology. If you want to prove more difficult things, like having created the universe, how could God prove that? Create another universe? How about knowing everything? I don't think even God could be sure of that, as "you don't know what you don't know". He could demonstrate a pretty extensive knowledge, and so can the internet, but everything? Same with all powerful. And don't get me started on all loving.

So in the end, proof will not be proof in the sense of certainty, but at some stage, assuming God would sit still to be a test subject, we would individually judge when he'd done enough to satisfy us. And maybe that would do, because for me I'd be happy enough to know a bunch of very powerful and benevolent aliens were running the show.

But all that is just fancy anyway, because God values free will higher that actually making our lives better. Sad, really.

 

[Trailblazer]

That's one that theists have an easy answer for. God doesn't want us to have proof, because that would remove free will.

No, that's not it. God doesn't want us to have proof, because that would remove the need for faith.

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.

Believing in God requires faith since no man has ever seen God. Then we go looking for the evidence. I believe that God will reward those who earnestly seek Him by helping them find the evidence they need to believe.

God could prove that He exists if God wanted to do so, but If God proved He exists then we would no longer need faith, because we would know 'for a fact' that God exists. So, it makes logical sense to me why there is no proof that God exists, because God wants us to believe on faith and the evidence that God provides.

But all that is just fancy anyway, because God values free will higher that actually making our lives better. Sad, really.

No, that's not it. God values faith, but God also values our free will to choose.

 

[Trailblazer]

I agree... IF we define proof as undeniable evidence. But when it comes to a god claims, all I ever hear is a bunch of very poor evidence. And even if you have thousands of pieces of very poor evidence, it will NEVER end up equaling actual proof.

There is no proof that God exists, only evidence. At the end of the day we can only prove to ourselves that God exists. God's existence can never be proven as a fact that everyone will accept. So if we define proof as undeniable evidence, that evidence will be proof that we ourselves cannot deny.

So go ahead and offer up some ACTUAL PROOF and I'll become a believer.

There is no proof that God exists, only evidence. Evidence is not proof unless it is verifiable evidence, but God cannot ever be verified to exist.

I have probably said that on this forum about 100 times.

 

[Kathryn]

Trouble is... this is another thread started by a Baha'i. He has "sound" proof that clearly shows Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ, Krishna, Buddha and everybody else ever promised to come in the end of days.

And I'm sure you have "sound" proof that shows that your prophet and God is true and real. But if you're not Baha'is, then your prophet and God is very different from the one's the Baha'is believe in. Yet... you both have "sound" proof?

It makes sense to you. It feels true and it, no doubt, changed your life. But their beliefs do the same for them. How is that possible when they are contradictory beliefs?

All true believers in a religion have very good reasons why they believe. But then what about the beliefs of the people in the other religions? Their "sound" proofs aren't that sound? I think we all need "sounder" proofs.

Or... to just accept we all have different beliefs. We all have our reasons to believe as we do, and we all have reasons to doubt and question the beliefs of others.

Here's what I honestly think. I am Roman Catholic because it works FOR ME. Clearly it doesn't work for everyone and that's fine. I am not "everyone" and "everyone" isn't me. So some faiths work better for other people. So what? I believe we are all, all of us, in for some surprises some day.

 

[QuestioningMind]

There is no proof that God exists, only evidence. At the end of the day we can only prove to ourselves that God exists. God's existence can never be proven as a fact that everyone will accept. So if we define proof as undeniable evidence, that evidence will be proof that we ourselves cannot deny.

There is no proof that God exists, only evidence. Evidence is not proof unless it is verifiable evidence, but God cannot ever be verified to exist.

I have probably said that on this forum about 100 times.

It's irrational to believe something that can't be verified to exist is real, which is why I can't believe in any unverifiable god claim.

 

[Trailblazer]

It's irrational to believe something that can't be verified to exist is real, which is why I can't believe in any unverifiable god claim.

What is irrational is to think that a God could ever be verified to exist, given the nature of God.

But if you cannot believe in a God that cannot be verified that's fine. It will only mean that you can't believe in God.

 

[an anarchist]

What is irrational is to think that a God could ever be verified to exist, given the nature of God.

It is not irrational to think that it is possible for a God to provide convincing evidence, though.

 

[Trailblazer]

It is not irrational to think that it is possible for a God to provide convincing evidence, though.

No, but what will be convincing evidence to some people will not be convincing to everyone, since we are all different.

 

[Alien826]

No, that's not it. God doesn't want us to have proof, because that would remove the need for faith.

I may have it wrong though I'm sure I've heard Christians use free will to explain it. Maybe that is why he doesn't fix the world as we experience it.

Anyway, faith is also puzzling. Why would god value faith over using the intellect he has supposedly given us? That would suggest that credulity is an attribute that he values.

You know, if we are talking about logic and clear thinking, there's an explanation for the lack of evidence that fits perfectly, but somehow gets set aside by those that "seek God". It's an explanation that we all use in everyday life and would call someone that acted differently a fool. Let's say you think there might be a wallet hidden somewhere in your house, containing $1000. The previous occupant told you that he lost it, so you have some reason to believe it might be there. So you search the house from top to bottom and find no wallet. Then you crawl up into the attic and look there, still no wallet. Still convinced it's there somewhere, you get into the crawl spaces under the house, and still no wallet. Eventually you lift all the floor boards without success. Eventually you sit in the wreckage of your home and come to the unavoidable conclusion ...

It isn't there!

Here's a variation on this idea.

Parable of the Invisible Gardener - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Audie]

We see things differently I suppose. Have you ever heard the term "ruach"? Some cultures term it as spirit, which is how it is defined. How do you define the term God? How about universe? It helps to have some sort of understanding of the definitions of the terms people utilize. In all honesty, God could mean anything. I offered my definition, to which you suggested was meaningless or pointless to view it that way. 2 plus 2 is 4 but you already knew that.

Guess I'm on some other wavelength from you.

I get a lot of that.

 

[Trailblazer]

I may have it wrong though I'm sure I've heard Christians use free will to explain it. Maybe that is why he doesn't fix the world as we experience it.

No, you do not have that wrong. Free will is why God doesn't fix the world as we experience it, since humans have the free will to make choices and fix it themselves. The irony is that Christians say what you said they say about free will, yet they believe that Jesus/God is going to return and fix everything that is wrong in the world - for us.

But free will does not explain why God doesn't want us to have proof of His existence...
God doesn't want us to have proof of His existence because that would remove the need for faith.

Anyway, faith is also puzzling. Why would god value faith over using the intellect he has supposedly given us? That would suggest that credulity is an attribute that he values.

God does not value faith OVER our intellect. God wants us to use our reasoning abilities, and if we use those we would realize why faith is necessary, in addition to evidence, since nobody can ever SEE GOD.

You know, if we are talking about logic and clear thinking, there's an explanation for the lack of evidence that fits perfectly, but somehow gets set aside by those that "seek God". It's an explanation that we all use in everyday life and would call someone that acted differently a fool. Let's say you think there might be a wallet hidden somewhere in your house, containing $1000. The previous occupant told you that he lost it, so you have some reason to believe it might be there. So you search the house from top to bottom and find no wallet. Then you crawl up into the attic and look there, still no wallet. Still convinced it's there somewhere, you get into the crawl spaces under the house, and still no wallet. Eventually you lift all the floor boards without success. Eventually you sit in the wreckage of your home and come to the unavoidable conclusion ...

It isn't there!

Here's a variation on this idea.

Parable of the Invisible Gardener - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The wallet may not have been there but that does not mean there is a lack of evidence for God.
It is just that the evidence is not the evidence you are looking for.

That man should not have 'believed' that the wallet with the cash was there and search the house from top to bottom to find the wallet.
One should never believe someone else telling them what the evidence is but rather they should go looking for the evidence by themselves.

Granted, I tell people what 'I believe' the evidence is, but that is because they ask, or it comes up in conversation.

 

[an anarchist]

No, but what will be convincing evidence to some people will not be convincing to everyone, since we are all different.

Convincing evidence would be convincing to the rational mind in general though. If there is supposed evidence for God, if it was of any worth, many of these atheists we see on these forums would not be atheists.

 

[Trailblazer]

Convincing evidence would be convincing to the rational mind in general though. If there is supposed evidence for God, if it was of any worth, many of these atheists we see on these forums would not be atheists.

What is the rational mind in general? Atheists think that they have a rational mind but I think I have a rational mind.
I do not think that atheists who cannot understand why God uses messengers to communicate are very rational.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I agree... IF we define proof as undeniable evidence. But when it comes to a god claims, all I ever hear is a bunch of very poor evidence. And even if you have thousands of pieces of very poor evidence, it will NEVER end up equaling actual proof.

So go ahead and offer up some ACTUAL PROOF and I'll become a believer.

That is not what the OP is about. It is about an individual asking God for a proof. I beleive God gives Proof, as if God did not, God would not allow us to ask for a proof.

You can choose to go ahead, ask if you want some actual proof. I see sincerity of heart will be required.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That's one that theists have an easy answer for. God doesn't want us to have proof, because that would remove free will. Unfortunately that doesn't make sense for lots of reasons, my favorite being that God supposedly punishes us for not believing, having made the test so hard that many will fail.

This OP offers otherwise, it says you are given the chance ro ask of a Proof.

I see God gives proofs. That is because knowledge is relative and not absolute for us. The proofs are relative to our given capacity.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Me too, though the one about the magician came close. I'll expand on that further down.

That's one that theists have an easy answer for. God doesn't want us to have proof, because that would remove free will. Unfortunately that doesn't make sense for lots of reasons, my favorite being that God supposedly punishes us for not believing, having made the test so hard that many will fail.


The trouble with "proof" is that it's impossible in the end. Yes, God could do magic tricks, even things no human can currently do, like turning dust into a living being, but that, though impressive, only demonstrates a very advanced technology. If you want to prove more difficult things, like having created the universe, how could God prove that? Create another universe? How about knowing everything? I don't think even God could be sure of that, as "you don't know what you don't know". He could demonstrate a pretty extensive knowledge, and so can the internet, but everything? Same with all powerful. And don't get me started on all loving.

So in the end, proof will not be proof in the sense of certainty, but at some stage, assuming God would sit still to be a test subject, we would individually judge when he'd done enough to satisfy us. And maybe that would do, because for me I'd be happy enough to know a bunch of very powerful and benevolent aliens were running the show.

But all that is just fancy anyway, because God values free will higher that actually making our lives better. Sad, really.

Some people that have NDE'S, need no other proof that God is real.

We all have the chance to ask for a proof, if we really want to know God exists.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

There is no proof that God exists, only evidence. At the end of the day we can only prove to ourselves that God exists. God's existence can never be proven as a fact that everyone will accept. So if we define proof as undeniable evidence, that evidence will be proof that we ourselves cannot deny.

There is no proof that God exists, only evidence. Evidence is not proof unless it is verifiable evidence, but God cannot ever be verified to exist.

I have probably said that on this forum about 100 times.

I do not personally agree with this stance taken on there being no proof, especially when it is offered there is evidence.

The evidence Baha'u'llah offered as to His Person, His Life and His Message to Humaity, is undeniable proof. But not everyone will accept that as fact, but eventually a Majority will. That is because truth is relative for all of us.

It is an undeniable fact that the earth is round and circles the sun, the proof of this is also now undeniable, but there are still people that will deny those proofs.

Baha'u'llah is the Messenger for this age, an Undeniable fact, but many will still deny the proofs the Messenger will give humanity from God.

I see Truth is its own emanating proof, and it needs none of us to confirm it.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

I do not personally agree with this stance taken on there being no proof, especially when it is offered there is evidence.

The evidence Baha'u'llah offered as to His Person, His Life and His Message to Humaity, is undeniable proof. But not everyone will accept that as fact, but eventually a Majority will. That is because truth is relative for all of us.

That is evidence, but it is not proof. Evidence is not proof unless it is verifiable evidence.

It is an undeniable fact that the earth is round and circles the sun, the proof of this is also now undeniable, but there are still people that will deny those proofs.

That the earth is round and circles the is an undeniable fact because it has been proven by scientists.

Baha'u'llah is the Messenger for this age, an Undeniable fact, but many will still deny the proofs the Messenger will give humanity from God.

That Baha'u'llah is the Messenger for this age is certainly not an Undeniable fact. It is not a fact at all, it is a religious belief.

I see Truth is its own emanating proof, and it needs none of us to confirm it.

It is for you and me and other Baha'is, but it isn't for everyone.