If we ask God for Proof we must be content with one proof.

[F1fan]

No, you do not have that wrong. Free will is why God doesn't fix the world as we experience it,

So it's a fact that God exists.

But free will does not explain why God doesn't want us to have proof of His existence...

So God exists. You're implying a God exists since you are describing what it wants.

God doesn't want us to have proof of His existence because that would remove the need for faith.

More of you telling us a God exists since you have knowledge of it.

God does not value faith OVER our intellect.

More of you telling us what is factual about God, which exists according to your wording.

God wants us to use our reasoning abilities, and if we use those we would realize why faith is necessary, in addition to evidence, since nobody can ever SEE GOD.

More of you telling us about a real God that actually exists. Non-existing Gods don't have any properties that can be described or explained as you do readily.

 

[F1fan]

I do not personally agree with this stance taken on there being no proof, especially when it is offered there is evidence.

The word "proof" is not being used well by the Baha'i. It seems a bad habit. Evidence is synonymous with evidence in casual language.

The evidence Baha'u'llah offered as to His Person, His Life and His Message to Humaity, is undeniable proof.

What is being claimed is easily rejected as there is no evidence that it's true. Just because your messenger claims things doesn't make them true. Baha'i assume he's telling the truth, but that is on faith, not a reasoned conclusion via evidence. This is why critical minds reject it.

But not everyone will accept that as fact, but eventually a Majority will.

Are you clarvoyant, or just hoping that more will align to your beliefs so you aren't an outcast?

That is because truth is relative for all of us.

If truth is relative then how will the majority align with your religion? The reason there are so many religions is becaiuse truth is relative. That means truth is anything people want it to be, even when it isn't true. Atheists are true seekers of truth.

It is an undeniable fact that the earth is round and circles the sun, the proof of this is also now undeniable, but there are still people that will deny those proofs.

And no religion comes close to having facts like this for their beliefs.

Baha'u'llah is the Messenger for this age, an Undeniable fact, but many will still deny the proofs the Messenger will give humanity from God.

Not enough evidence that he's genuine. But Baha'i don't care.

I see Truth is its own emanating proof, and it needs none of us to confirm it.

Eye of the beholder.

 

[Trailblazer]

So it's a fact that God exists.

No, it is not a fact that God exists, as I explained to @TransmutingSoul
Facts require proof, and there is no proof that God exists.

So God exists. You're implying a God exists since you are describing what it wants.

No, I am not implying that God exists.
I believe that God exists and that I know what God wants, regarding free will.

More of you telling us a God exists since you have knowledge of it.

I have belief, not knowledge.

More of you telling us what is factual about God, which exists according to your wording.

I am not telling you what is factual, I am telling you what I believe.
There are no facts about God, only beliefs.

More of you telling us about a real God that actually exists.

More of me telling you what I believe about a real God that I believe actually exists.

Non-existing Gods don't have any properties that can be described or explained as you do readily.

But existing Gods do.

 

[F1fan]

I agree... IF we define proof as undeniable evidence.

Right, like in the sense that a size 12 Bruno Mali shoe print in the blood at a double murder is a fact that a size 12 Bruno Mali shoe was present at the crime scene, but isn't a fact that OJ's foot was in it, or that if it was that he murdered his ex wife and Ron Goldman. But it's also a fact that OJ owned size 12 Bruno Mali shoes that were oddly missing after the murders, so circumstantial, but significant.

This kind of fact that supports anything related to any of the many thousands of Gods in human lore? Nothing. As far as any evidence? Nothing significant.

But when it comes to a god claims, all I ever hear is a bunch of very poor evidence. And even if you have thousands of pieces of very poor evidence, it will NEVER end up equaling actual proof.

And even the very questionable evidnce that theists claim, they ignore the opposing evidence. Theists will claim their loving God exists, and they cite that anything existing as evidence of a creator, then it can be asked "Why did the God create cancer, which even affects children?" Talk about a devastating observation and question, but believers easily ignore it. Why? They never arrived at a rational conclusion their God exists in the first place, so reason and evidence is largely irrelevant to their belief. When believers refer to evidence it's typically symbolic and heavily interpreted. That's not good enough for seelers of truth.

 

[F1fan]

No, it is not a fact that God exists, as I explained to @TransmutingSoul
Facts require proof, and there is no proof that God exists.

Then how can you tell us anything about God? You do that quite often, which requires knowledge. Or you are just citing unverified lore, and aren't using language properly.

No, I am not implying that God exists.
I believe that God exists and that I know what God wants, regarding free will.

How can you believe a God exists (which means you have decided it exists and could be wrong) but then say you know what it wants, which implies it exists? Do you understand the implication of "God wants"?

I have belief, not knowledge.

But you already stated that you have knowledge when you say "God wants...".

I am not telling you what is factual, I am telling you what I believe.
There are no facts about God, only beliefs.

So when you assert that "God wants ...." you're being deceptive? You're claiming knowledge about God, specifically that it exists and wants something.

More of me telling you what I believe about a real God that I believe actually exists.

But existing Gods do.

LOL. Oh boy.

 

[CG Didymus]

Here's what I honestly think. I am Roman Catholic because it works FOR ME. Clearly it doesn't work for everyone and that's fine. I am not "everyone" and "everyone" isn't me. So some faiths work better for other people. So what? I believe we are all, all of us, in for some surprises some day.

So what? Not that I believe it, but the Christian message was told to people that it was the one and only way to avoid being cast into hell.

Lots of relatives of mine were Catholics, and it was a mortal sin back then not to go to Mass on Sunday and a bunch of other things. Religions wouldn't have worked if the people knew they had other options.

Even with such "accepting" religion like the Baha'i Faith, in reality, they don't believe that any of the other religions still have "The Truth" from God. What truth they did have has been replaced by a new and updated truth from God.

So, ultimately, all "true" lovers and believers in God should one day become Baha'is. Because what they teach is that their prophet is the return of Christ. If a person really knows and loves Jesus the Christ. They should know and recognize that he has returned as Baha'u'llah in this day and age.

I have a lot of doubts that it's true. And their laws and beliefs don't work for me. To me, they are a liberal form of Islam. Kind of like Christianity was a liberal form of Judaism because of how Christianity pretty much did away with most of the laws of Judaism.

But, just in case God is real, then I too think we're in for some surprises. A proof of God being real is all the horrible things he has planned during the tribulation. But I don't know what exactly that's going to prove. That God isn't all-loving? That he allowed people to misunderstand him and follow false religions? And now he's going to punish people for not believing in him?

Yeah, that be just great... Disasters and plagues. But at least we'd know for sure that he's real.

 

[Trailblazer]

Then how can you tell us anything about God? You do that quite often, which requires knowledge. Or you are just citing unverified lore, and aren't using language properly.

Knowledge is a word with more than one definition.

Definition of KNOWLEDGE

the fact or condition of knowing something with familiarity gained through experience or association; acquaintance with or understanding of a science, art, or technique; the fact or condition of being aware of something… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

I believe that I have knowledge of God through the Writings of Baha'u'llah.
That is knowledge according to the following definition:

b (1) : the fact or condition of being aware of something

How can you believe a God exists (which means you have decided it exists and could be wrong) but then say you know what it wants, which implies it exists? Do you understand the implication of "God wants"?

I believe that God exists and that I know what God wants regarding free will, from what the Baha'i Faith teaches.

But you already stated that you have knowledge when you say "God wants...".

I do not have the kind of knowledge you are looking for but I have knowledge according to the following definition:

b (1) : the fact or condition of being aware of something

So when you assert that "God wants ...." you're being deceptive? You're claiming knowledge about God, specifically that it exists and wants something.

I am not asserting what God wants. I am telling you what I believe God wants, according to my religion.
I am not claiming knowledge about God, that it exists and wants something. I am telling you what I believe, that God exists and what I believe that God wants, according to my religion.

 

[CG Didymus]

So it's a fact that God exists.

Baha'is, Christians and other religious people sure act as if their God and their beliefs are fact.

It's a shame that so many people were tortured and killed for not having the correct beliefs.

Michael Servetus was a Spanish physician and theologian who rejected orthodox Trinitarian doctrine. According to Servetus, God is one single person...​

​

Servetus... was eventually executed in Geneva for his heresy...​

 

[Aupmanyav]

Would One proof be sufficient for you?

Yes, I will be satisfied with one proof.
Does all the 'blah-blah' that you (and your co-religionists) have posted provide any proof?

 

[Aupmanyav]

According to Servetus, God is one single person..

Ah, 16th Century. Servetus was obviously wrong.
What proof did he have for what he was saying?
Though the punishment that the religious people gave him was inhuman.
In India too, Sarmad Kashani was beheaded for not completing 'la ilahi ..' (there is no God) in 17th Century.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I believe that I have knowledge of God through the Writings of Baha'u'llah.

Yeah, and if Bahaollah was wrong, then you too are wrong.
What evidence did Bahaollah give for existence of God or his being a manifestation of God?

 

[Trailblazer]

What evidence did Bahaollah give for existence of God or his being a manifestation of God?

The evidence He gave for His being a manifestation of God is as follows:

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 104-107

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes, I will be satisfied with one proof.
Does all the 'blah-blah' that you (and your co-religionists) have posted provide any proof?

You will have to ask God, not me. That is what the OP is about.

It's your choice.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What is being claimed is easily rejected as there is no evidence that it's true. Just because your messenger claims things doesn't make them true. Baha'i assume he's telling the truth, but that is on faith, not a reasoned conclusion via evidence. This is why critical minds reject it.

One must build faith on the given evidence, the evidence that God gives us.

I do not need to assume Baha'u'llah is telling the truth, the world is reflecting the Truth he has already given, that is how God works.

The issue maybe that you are yet to study the given evidence.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No, it is not a fact that God exists, as I explained to @TransmutingSoul
Facts require proof, and there is no proof that God exists.

The greatest proof is the Messengers. Their person, their lives and their Message.

Abdul'baha also offers other logical proofs in many talks.

The Bab has given us this.

". Ponder for a while in thy heart, have pity on thyself and turn not aside thine attention from proofs and evidences. However, seek not proofs and evidences after thine idle fancy; but rather base thy proofs upon what God hath appointed.. " The Báb, Selections from the Writings of the Báb, p. 124

We are actually asked ro rise above proofs, but I see that would be a rare soul.

"If thou wishest the divine knowledge and recognition, purify thy heart from all beside God, be wholly attracted to the ideal, beloved One; search for and choose Him and apply thyself to rational and authoritative arguments. For arguments are a guide to the path and by this the heart will be turned unto the Sun of Truth. And when the heart is turned unto the Sun, then the eye will be opened and will recognize the Sun through the Sun itself. Then man will be in no need of arguments (or proofs), for the Sun is altogether independent, and absolute independence is in need of nothing, and proofs are one of the things of which absolute independence has no need. Be not like Thomas; be thou like Peter. I hope you will be healed physically, mentally and spiritually..." ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Bahá’í World Faith, p. 383-384

Regards Tony

 

[Aupmanyav]

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.”

'I say therefore it is truth'. That makes things very easy for a charlatan.
What is new in Bahaollah's revelation?
Bahaollah has done nothing of the kind. I remain a strong atheist rejecting the possibility of existence of God, therefore also of prophets, sons, messengers, manifestation, mahdi or whatever the new term you invent for such people.
I have done thorough pondering and found all things said about God or prophets, sons, messengers, manifestations, mahdis, to be without any evidence.
Who is this He? Your God? Open your eyes and see how badly he has dealt with poor people.

 

[Aupmanyav]

You will have to ask God, not me. That is what the OP is about.

Imaginary beings do not provide any answer. It is like asking FGM or Cthulhu for answers.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You will have to ask God, not me. That is what the OP is about.

Indeed: this thread is about question-begging. God can't be "proven" until you're so convinced that God exists that you try to strike up a conversation with him.

It's about finding what will convince the already-convinced.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The greatest proof is the Messengers. Their person, their lives and their Message.
Abdul'baha also offers other logical proofs in many talks.

The Bab has given us this.
". Ponder for a while in thy heart, have pity on thyself and turn not aside thine attention from proofs and evidences. However, seek not proofs and evidences after thine idle fancy; but rather base thy proofs upon what God hath appointed..

We are actually asked to rise above proofs, but I see that would be a rare soul.

Life: No one knows about a person's personal life. Their lives: Apart from 4 months in jail Bahaollah lived luxuriously, for sometime as the guest of an enemy of his country, without doing anything other than preaching. Message: There is nothing new in Bahaollah's message.
If what I say is wrong, correct me.
Why not Abbas will talk in praise of his father who bequeathed him the leadership of a group?
Bab: What proofs and evidences? In the next sentence he says do not seek proofs and evidences. Same thing, since we are saying this, you 'aught' to believe.
Rise above proof and evidence! That is a foolish thing to do. Only scammers will say that. 'Forget proof, believe what I say'.

 

[Kathryn]

So what? Not that I believe it, but the Christian message was told to people that it was the one and only way to avoid being cast into hell.

Lots of relatives of mine were Catholics, and it was a mortal sin back then not to go to Mass on Sunday and a bunch of other things. Religions wouldn't have worked if the people knew they had other options.

Even with such "accepting" religion like the Baha'i Faith, in reality, they don't believe that any of the other religions still have "The Truth" from God. What truth they did have has been replaced by a new and updated truth from God.

So, ultimately, all "true" lovers and believers in God should one day become Baha'is. Because what they teach is that their prophet is the return of Christ. If a person really knows and loves Jesus the Christ. They should know and recognize that he has returned as Baha'u'llah in this day and age.

I have a lot of doubts that it's true. And their laws and beliefs don't work for me. To me, they are a liberal form of Islam. Kind of like Christianity was a liberal form of Judaism because of how Christianity pretty much did away with most of the laws of Judaism.

But, just in case God is real, then I too think we're in for some surprises. A proof of God being real is all the horrible things he has planned during the tribulation. But I don't know what exactly that's going to prove. That God isn't all-loving? That he allowed people to misunderstand him and follow false religions? And now he's going to punish people for not believing in him?

Yeah, that be just great... Disasters and plagues. But at least we'd know for sure that he's real.

Whatever you say.