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If we ask God for Proof we must be content with one proof.

Is One Proof Sufficient?

  • Yes one proof would satisfy me?

    Votes: 8 40.0%
  • No, I would need more than one proof?

    Votes: 3 15.0%
  • Maybe, I will offer my reasoning.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I do not see this would prove anything.

    Votes: 3 15.0%
  • There is a problem, many magicians do this.

    Votes: 3 15.0%
  • Other reasons. (Share if you like)

    Votes: 3 15.0%

  • Total voters
    20

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Do you think you could be content with one proof?

This extract from the Kitab-i-iqan by Baha'u'llah first addresses why we reject a Messenger

"...It is evident that the changes brought about in every Dispensation constitute the dark clouds that intervene between the eye of man’s understanding and the divine Luminary which shineth forth from the dayspring of the divine Essence. Consider how men for generations have been blindly imitating their fathers, and have been trained according to such ways and manners as have been laid down by the dictates of their Faith. Were these men, therefore, to discover suddenly that a Man, Who hath been living in their midst, Who, with respect to every human limitation, hath been their equal, had risen to abolish every established principle imposed by their Faith—principles by which for centuries they have been disciplined, and every opposer and denier of which they have come to regard as infidel, profligate and wicked—they would of a certainty be veiled and hindered from acknowledging His truth.…"

Then He adds that the darkest veils become the teachings and traditions

"....It behooveth us, therefore, to make the utmost endeavor, that, by God’s invisible assistance, these dark veils, these clouds of Heaven-sent trials, may not hinder us from beholding the beauty of His shining Countenance, and that we may recognize Him only by His own Self..."

It is the Self of the Messengers that become the greatest way we can recognise God.

".....And should we ask for a testimony of His truth, we should content ourselves with one, and only one, that thereby we may attain unto Him Who is the Fountainhead of infinite grace, and in Whose presence all the world’s abundance fadeth into nothingness, that we may cease to cavil at Him every day and to cleave unto our own idle fancy...." — The Kitáb-i-Íqán

That is the OP, it appears if we want proof, then we should ask of only One and be content with it.

Would One proof be sufficient for you?

One PROOF would be sufficient.

One piece of EVIDENCE would not.

Do you understand the difference?

Bonus question if you want to share, "What proof could we possibly ask"?

If an all powerful, all knowing god actually exists, then that god would know exactly what would convince me. So it seems like a waste of energy for me to try and articulate it, because I wouldn't know.

The reason I don't know is because people consistently fail in giving me a proper, non-vague, straightforward definition of what "god" supposedly is. To know what would convince me that X is real, I would require a rather detailed and clear description / definition of what X supposedly is, in such a way that I can distinguish an X that exists from an X that does not exist.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Knowledge is a word with more than one definition.


I believe that I have knowledge of God through the Writings of Baha'u'llah.
That is knowledge according to the following definition:

b (1) : the fact or condition of being aware of something

I believe that God exists and that I know what God wants regarding free will, from what the Baha'i Faith teaches.

I do not have the kind of knowledge you are looking for but I have knowledge according to the following definition:

b (1) : the fact or condition of being aware of something
You believe you have knowledge of God. That ISN'T having knowledge of God.
I am not asserting what God wants.
You wrote sentences saying what God wants.
I am telling you what I believe God wants, according to my religion.
Again, belief that something is tue INS'T knowing it is true. If you are going to state what you believe is true then you should offer the evidence, and the reasoning. Notice your history of doing this indicates poor evidence and poor reasoning. Don't feel bad, it's the same with all theists and their beliefs.
I am not claiming knowledge about God, that it exists and wants something. I am telling you what I believe, that God exists and what I believe that God wants, according to my religion.
When you write in a manner that is a declarative sentence but it isn't true it's deceptive.

You wrote "No, you do not have that wrong. Free will is why God doesn't fix the world as we experience it," Notice you are correcting me by informing me something about God. It isn't factual. We can discuss religious dogmas with guesses, but not with facts.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
You will have to ask God, not me. That is what the OP is about.
Does God talk to you?
It's your choice.
Seekers of truth never hear from Gods. Not our choice.

One must build faith on the given evidence, the evidence that God gives us.
Yet faith is unreliable, and reasoning is vastly superior in assessing evidence. Why don't you ever advocate for reasoning? Is it because faith allows poor judgment and belief in whatever the person desires? That faith will accept weak evidence when reasoning rules it out?

You are not helping your argument in this thread. You are exposing the weakness.
I do not need to assume Baha'u'llah is telling the truth, the world is reflecting the Truth he has already given, that is how God works.
Sure, he observes the same things anyone else can and does. But it is his claims of a supernatural existing that is questionable and flawed. Like any other religion that asserts a God the problems are well described, but never how the God is accountable for how it created it. Baha'i go on and on about war and violence but never a word about how that is what God created. If God really wanted peaceful minds then God would have created human brains without the large, primitive emotion centers we have. Buddhism is an excellent metod to help humans tame the "monkey mind", but it still can't help those with mental illnesses, something God created. And Baha'i has no method to help minds be veaceful, it just suggests ideal behaior. And that is supposed to be from God?

Most people in the world don't want war and violence, and they aren't Baha'i. It is charasmatic figures that attract weak minds that gain power and influence, and sometimes take that power to wage war. And the masses go along with it. Where are the solutions in Baha'i texts? Nothing I've seen.
The issue maybe that you are yet to study the given evidence.
You Baha'i have had many, mnay opportunities to present your evidence, and you have. As you know critical thinkers find it weak and insigificant. That is your problem. And you trying to suggest critical thinkers have a problem illustrates your denial.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
What is new in Bahaollah's revelation?
The oneness of God.
The oneness of humanity.
The oneness of religion.
Religion as a school.
Equality of women and men.
Harmony of religion and science.
Universal compulsory education.
Universal auxiliary language.

Read more: Baháʼí teachings - Wikipedia
I remain a strong atheist rejecting the possibility of existence of God, therefore also of prophets, sons, messengers, manifestation, mahdi or whatever the new term you invent for such people.
That is your choice since you have free will.
Who is this He? Your God?
No, Baha'u'llah was not God and He never claimed to be God.
Open your eyes and see how badly he has dealt with poor people.
I suggest that you are the one who needs to open your eyes.

Instead of pursuing a life of power and leisure, Bahá'u'lláh chose to devote His energies to a range of philanthropies which had, by the early 1840s, earned Him renown as "father of the poor."
"Father of the poor" - The Life of Bahá'u'lláh
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Imaginary beings do not provide any answer. It is like asking FGM or Cthulhu for answers.
Well that is 100% your choice, personally I have found that the world would benefit greatly by asking God how they should live.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Indeed: this thread is about question-begging. God can't be "proven" until you're so convinced that God exists that you try to strike up a conversation with him.

It's about finding what will convince the already-convinced.
God has been proven to me, 100% no doubt.

This is the case for Billions. So I guess your view about this is relative.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Life: No one knows about a person's personal life. Their lives: Apart from 4 months in jail Bahaollah lived luxuriously, for sometime as the guest of an enemy of his country, without doing anything other than preaching. Message: There is nothing new in Bahaollah's message.
If what I say is wrong, correct me.
Why not Abbas will talk in praise of his father who bequeathed him the leadership of a group?
Bab: What proofs and evidences? In the next sentence he says do not seek proofs and evidences. Same thing, since we are saying this, you 'aught' to believe.
Rise above proof and evidence! That is a foolish thing to do. Only scammers will say that. 'Forget proof, believe what I say'.
You are incorrect about the life of Baha’u’llah and the guven Message, but this OP is not about those topics.

This is about a chance to ask for a proof from God.

Obviously you are in the "I do not see this would prove anything" group.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Does God talk to you?
God has answered my prayers, God has also showed me the erosive consequences of what selfish prayers will produce.

The answers are not in words, but in life experiences. Experiences that are evident enough that the prayer was well and truly heard and answered.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
You Baha'i have had many, mnay opportunities to present your evidence, and you have. As you know critical thinkers find it weak and insigificant. That is your problem. And you trying to suggest critical thinkers have a problem illustrates your denial.
This OP has naught to do with Baha'i providing evidence.

This OP puts it in your hands, you have the chance to ask of a proof.from God.

Maybe one day you may consider it is a good and viable choice to consider.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
I don't know if I am a rare soul, but I need no proof, because I have ample and excellent evidence. :)
Well done you, a few million amongst total of humanity could be seen as rare. ;)

The potential of available for everyone.

All the best, Love from my Wife and I, Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
No, God does not talk to anyone except the Messengers.
The way God talks to us is not by words but in answer to what we ask in prayer from the heart.

Many of our prayers we may think go unanswered, but we are not able to see the bigger picture, not realising if we ask for things like peace, that God is answering that prayer, in the only way humanity will choose peace.

There are many experiences in my life that could only have happened because of prayers I had offered.

Sometimes the answers are immediate and amazing. Many funny stories from my experiences and friends experiences.

Regards Tony
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
True Story Time!

Once I had two daughters only 20 months apart. I was lulled into a false sense of security with the first one, because she literally slept most of the time, and when she was awake, she was charming and did everything early. Along comes the second one, and not only did she not do ANYTHING early, she screamed every single day from 4 till 7 and didn't sleep through the night for a year, etc. etc. She also would projectile vomit everything I gave her to eat. Finally at 4 months, after changing her formula over and over again, and doing everything I knew how to do to calm her down from 4 till 7, the doctor said, "I think she has cerebral palsy. We won't know for sure till she's around a year old but here's the name of the pediatric neurologist in Atlanta I want you to take her to see. And here's the name of the therapist for afterward. You cannot expect her to ever sit on her own or tie her own shoelaces. " So I cried and made the appointment and railed at God and I didn't understand why he was allowing her to suffer and not me. So there's a certain amount of suffering the world has to suffer for whatever reason? OK, then STRIKE ME instead of this innocent baby. Fast forward to a few months later when I could finally get in to see the pediatric neurologist. My husband and I bundled up this baby and parked the car in the parking garage and went up to the 4th floor to see this doctor. He looked over all her paperwork and grinned and said, "OK so here's what I'm seeing. Your baby definitely had a brain INJURY at birth, but she fully recovered. So, no brain DAMAGE, just a brain INJURY." I WAS SO RELIEVED! So my husband and I went down the elevator and into the parking garage and suddenly behind us, this doctor came running up to us, and literally said, with tears in his eyes, "I never, NEVER get to tell parents good news. I just wanted to tell you that you give me hope." Suddenly, it all made sense to me. And God didn't have to move that doctor to go find us in the parking garage. He didn't have to move him at all in fact. He didn't have to do anything. But He let me know WHY and it was amazing to me.

This daughter by the way, joined the military and passed the physical with flying colors.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Not enough evidence that he's genuine. But Baha'i don't care.
Enough evidence that Baha'is are amongst the most peaceful and loving people on this planet.

Baha'is care enough to come to RF to be continually ridiculed for trying g to show the world peace is not only possible, it is inevitable and God has shown that to our hearts.

No other human can show us that.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
True Story Time!

Once I had two daughters only 20 months apart. I was lulled into a false sense of security with the first one, because she literally slept most of the time, and when she was awake, she was charming and did everything early. Along comes the second one, and not only did she not do ANYTHING early, she screamed every single day from 4 till 7 and didn't sleep through the night for a year, etc. etc. She also would projectile vomit everything I gave her to eat. Finally at 4 months, after changing her formula over and over again, and doing everything I knew how to do to calm her down from 4 till 7, the doctor said, "I think she has cerebral palsy. We won't know for sure till she's around a year old but here's the name of the pediatric neurologist in Atlanta I want you to take her to see. And here's the name of the therapist for afterward. You cannot expect her to ever sit on her own or tie her own shoelaces. " So I cried and made the appointment and railed at God and I didn't understand why he was allowing her to suffer and not me. So there's a certain amount of suffering the world has to suffer for whatever reason? OK, then STRIKE ME instead of this innocent baby. Fast forward to a few months later when I could finally get in to see the pediatric neurologist. My husband and I bundled up this baby and parked the car in the parking garage and went up to the 4th floor to see this doctor. He looked over all her paperwork and grinned and said, "OK so here's what I'm seeing. Your baby definitely had a brain INJURY at birth, but she fully recovered. So, no brain DAMAGE, just a brain INJURY." I WAS SO RELIEVED! So my husband and I went down the elevator and into the parking garage and suddenly behind us, this doctor came running up to us, and literally said, with tears in his eyes, "I never, NEVER get to tell parents good news. I just wanted to tell you that you give me hope." Suddenly, it all made sense to me. And God didn't have to move that doctor to go find us in the parking garage. He didn't have to move him at all in fact. He didn't have to do anything. But He let me know WHY and it was amazing to me.

This daughter by the way, joined the military and passed the physical with flying colors.
Exactly how God speaks to us, thank you for a wonderful experience shared.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Imaginary beings do not provide any answer. It is like asking FGM or Cthulhu for answers.
Maybe you have never taken the opportunity to ask?

Mostly people ask genuinely, only when life has gotten so bad, that it is they they will cry from the heart.

Regards Tony
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
God has been proven to me, 100% no doubt.

This is the case for Billions. So I guess your view about this is relative.

Regards Tony

If you think God is "100% no doubt proven" for you, why the coy games?

Is there anything else - anything at all - that you think is "100% proven" but that other people can't be convinced of unless they approach the issue with a specific mindset?
 
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