If you can't believe.....

[Thief]

then toss it out the window the second it stops helping your beliefs...

Cause and effect are relentless.
I cannot make it go away.

 

[Thief]

Do you have anything besides an argument for Deism? How do you support your more specific beliefs? You are starting to sound pretty insecure by repeating the same thing over and over.

What is wrong with man being a complete mystery? At least we aren't claiming to know the unknowable. I would argue that there is plenty of purpose and resolve without "knowing" how we came to be. We can create a purpose of improving our relationship with other humans. We can resolve to make this life as valuable as possible.

That puts me in the grave without (hope) or unsubstantiated, wishful thinking. I will grant you that. I think that is a very good thing.

I repeat....as my 'worthy' opponents repeat denial.

I cannot guarantee you won't be aware....after your last breath.
I have been blind seven days....did not stop 'seeing'.
I have known my limbs numb and unresponsive......did not stop 'feeling'.

I hope to shed this parcel of flesh when it fails.

 

[Cephus]

You have freewill.
If God was looking over your shoulder.....would it still be there?

If God knew what I was going to do, every second of every day and God can never be wrong, then no, it wouldn't be there.

 

[Thief]

If God knew what I was going to do, every second of every day and God can never be wrong, then no, it wouldn't be there.

He is going to stand back and let you fail.

He is God enough to let it happen.

Go for it.

 

[tkdrocks]

I repeat....as my 'worthy' opponents repeat denial.

I cannot guarantee you won't be aware....after your last breath.
I have been blind seven days....did not stop 'seeing'.
I have known my limbs numb and unresponsive......did not stop 'feeling'.

I hope to shed this parcel of flesh when it fails.

So you don't have anything else besides repeated superstition. Fair enough.

 

[McBell]

Cause and effect are relentless.
I cannot make it go away.

What caused your god?

Uh oh...
There it is, where you toss your precious cause and effect out the window.

I agree, you cannot make it go away.
What caused your god?

 

[InChrist]

If you want to tell me it's not that simple, you must also tell me why, and provide evidence, sources, SOMEthing other than your own reactionary, emotion-based [and therefore blind] defense of the indefensible. You answered none of the actual points in my second post, *and* you indulged in presumption about my motivations, of which you know less than nothing.
.

First, I did tell you why the jealousy of God is not sinful. Secondly, I did not answer the points in your second post because I have not had the time to respond to that post at all. Considering your erroneous recaps of various accounts in the scriptures you've made clear you're intent to fault the character of God. I did not have to presume anything. If you want to deal with each of your points one at a time, in context, with scripture references, that's fine, otherwise it is obvious your motive is simply to "make God look bad", rather than actually understand what and why the scriptures are revealing in the accounts about God and His interactions with humans in those specific situations..

 

[InChrist]

Love and sense of justice occurs in the brain. The brain is a physical organ that functions as it is told according to its genetics and environment. So you are basically advocating magic.

Yes, the brain is a physical organ, but you cannot physically see, observe or examine love or justice under a microscope. Does mean they do not exist? I'm not advocating magic, but reality.

The bible clearly states that humans are sinful creatures. If you take away humanities ability to sin are they still human? Are they still free? If humans can exist sin free, why didn't he make us that way to begin with?

According to the scriptures, God does not take away the human ability to sin He offers a way for one to choose the option to be set free from the power of sin through Christ. He did not make us that way in the first place because it must be a choice made by each individual to become a new creation.

Only if you believe in all this "sin" nonsense.

I believe it and don't think it's nonsense. All I have to do is look around, watch the news. or be honest about my own thoughts and actions.

I haven't had a biology class in a long time but even I know sickness isn't caused by sin. Most sickness is caused by viruses, bacteria, and there are genetic disorders.

I believe the scriptures indicate all of creation has been negatively impacted by sin, including genetics, bacteria, etc.

What do you mean by choice?

The opportunity to choose between options, in the case of eternal significance, between God and life or Satan and death.

I don't need an imaginary friend.

I don't either.

 

[InChrist]

I have heard of Christianity or other Abrahamic religions being compared to Stockholm Syndrome and also to an abusive relationship. I think that you are making a good case for that. Jealousy is, by its very definition, a selfish emotion. God demands worship and to be the first consideration, otherwise, he is going to unleash his wrath upon you. How many wives have defended their husbands violent acts as in their overall best interest. Fortunately, this is becoming a thing of the past (at least in the U.S.). Once people started to realize that violence is still inappropriate, no matter the position of authority.

I am sure that there was many a slave that defended their masters, saying that they only beat me for my own good or my master beats me less than other masters.



How is it that you know this? Is it by reading the Bible? If so, you should read the entire book to make your evaluation. It would seem that there is, at best an inconsistent description of the nature of the Judaic God. More likely, it is a collection of human written and biased, evolving opinions compiled into a collection of scrolls.

Within human behavior jealousy is most often expressed as a selfish emotion, but I don't think by definition it must be selfish and certainly not when expressed by God the Creator who is looking out for the best interests of His creation. 21. A Jealous God | Bible.org

 

[Thief]

So you don't have anything else besides repeated superstition. Fair enough.

Go back and read the whole thing over....again.
I am not superstitious.

 

[Thief]

What caused your god?

Uh oh...
There it is, where you toss your precious cause and effect out the window.

I agree, you cannot make it go away.
What caused your god?

How about nothing.
Nothing caused God.

Now ....do you feel better?
Nothing like placating an emotion when all you had to do was choose.

 

[SkepticX]

I repeat....as my 'worthy' opponents repeat denial.

Comeon now. Why go there? Disagreement isn't denial. Calling it that just feeds into an adversarial mindset which in turn feeds our natural inclination to dig in and double down ... very counterproductive to genuine dialog.

 

[Thief]

Comeon now. Why go there? Disagreement isn't denial. Calling it that just feeds into an adversarial mindset which in turn feeds our natural inclination to dig in and double down ... very counterproductive to genuine dialog.

Let's see...genuine dialogue....without adversarial mindset....

So we are suppose to agree? and not toss the potential misconceptions back and forth?

Seems to me, disagreement IS denial.

I say let's nod our heads...you say 'nay'.....I say, why not?
You disagree.

A parting of the ways is natural.

 

[SkepticX]

Let's see...genuine dialogue....without adversarial mindset....

So we are suppose to agree? and not toss the potential misconceptions back and forth?

It's not difficult at all to disagree without being adversarial about it.

You can say they're synonyms and and you'd be right, at least sort of, but to apply different forms of the term on the same point is equivocation (same for disagreement and denial as below).

Context is important--can't really have honest dialog if anyone is playing around with it, and if that's going on intentionally there just really isn't any potential for genuine dialog, adversarial or otherwise ... that's more like flinging poo at each other in the monkey cage, just using words, and that sort of thing raises some obvious questions about motives and actual purpose and such.

Seems to me, disagreement IS denial.

 

[tkdrocks]

Go back and read the whole thing over....again.
I am not superstitious.

Well, you have repeatedly denied it, that is true. But the fact that the description is accurate is also true.

 

[tkdrocks]

Within human behavior jealousy is most often expressed as a selfish emotion, but I don't think by definition it must be selfish and certainly not when expressed by God the Creator who is looking out for the best interests of His creation. 21. A Jealous God | Bible.org

I have read the article and it does a good job of attempting to spin the Jealousy attributed to the God of the Old Testament as something different than a human jealousy, equating it with zeal. This, does, of course, requires some very selective reading and ignoring some of the more uncomfortable passages.

Fear the Lord your God, serve him only and take your oaths in his name. Do not follow other gods, the gods of the peoples around you; for the Lord your God, who is among you, is a jealous God and his anger will burn against you, and he will destroy you from the face of the land. Deut. 6:13-15

Anger and jealousy are typically 2 sides of the same (human defined) jealousy. Now, unless you also want to redefine 'anger', then you must agree that (at least in this case), the Hebrew God's version of 'Jealousy' seems very similar to human jealousy. There are many examples within the Old Testament that would cause an outsider to view the Hebrew Gods* (Not a typo, the link discusses the Jewish Pantheon) as a short tempered deity that destroys his toys when he gets angry. One note of interest is that God (Jehovah) gets really jealous at the time of the prophet Elijah and Baal worship. It has been proposed that this was documenting the transition from Baal (Elohim) to Jehovah in Judaism. The Jehovah worshippers came out victorious, thus all of the other parts of the Jewish Pantheon were discarded and their followers dealt with.

Now, lest you think or suggest that I am merely attacking the character of the Hebrew/Christian God. This is not the case. It is my opinion, as well as many others much more learned than I, that the Jewish scriptures are written/influenced/edited by different theological points of view over an extended period of time. There would appear to be quite a bit of redaction (in fact, one of the editors has been called "The Redactor") of those documents to fit the point of view of the clergy at that time.

So, with that bit of information, I am not attacking the character of God (as it would not make sense to attack an attribute of an entity that I consider mythical), but merely making the case that the Bible is a book written by fallible humans that transposed their biases and opinions into a collection of documents. In doing so, they describe a deity that possesses strikingly human attributes, especially emotions and motivations.

Speaking of motivations, I would imagine that the Jewish clergy of that time might not like competition. After all, they were dependent on the offerings of the people to their particular product, I mean, God. So, it would be in their best interest to discourage the worship of other gods. Since they were the keepers of the holy scriptures, what better place was there to call for the prohibition of spiritual competition?

 

[JustWondering]

Yes, the brain is a physical organ, but you cannot physically see, observe or examine love or justice under a microscope. Does mean they do not exist? I'm not advocating magic, but reality.

Actually neurologists can observe the brain while feeling emotions and see what parts of the brain are involved. They can also dependably induce emotions and experiences by artificially stimulating the brain. Many effective medications for psychological issues work precisely because of the fact that who we are, how we think, and how we feel is accomplished by the brain. This includes love and a sense of justice. If you deny this than you are in fact advocating magic.

According to the scriptures, God does not take away the human ability to sin He offers a way for one to choose the option to be set free from the power of sin through Christ. He did not make us that way in the first place because it must be a choice made by each individual to become a new creation.

This argument makes no sense. The only way to be free from sin is to have the ability to choose to be sinful taken away. Which would mean the loss of your precious free will, correct? So if in the end if god wants mindlessly obedient robots why didn't he just create us that way in the first place and save all of us a lot of trouble?

I believe it and don't think it's nonsense. All I have to do is look around, watch the news. or be honest about my own thoughts and actions.

This is one good example of how harmful your religion is to the human psyche and human development in general. Due to your religion you view the human race as inherently bad and the only hope for a bright future is through your god and NO other way. Millions of people believe this nonsense, believe that we are all doomed to failure and making the wrong decisions because we're "sinful". Do you really think this twisted world view that burdens those indoctrinated into it with irrational guilt for just being human is healthy and productive? Why would a truly loving god have us think we are scum unless we submit ourselves totally to his will? How valuable can free will be to your god who seems to want to control every aspect of our lives?

I believe the scriptures indicate all of creation has been negatively impacted by sin, including genetics, bacteria, etc.

That's nice. How exactly does Johnny touching himself at night equate to the existence of viruses, bacteria, and genetic disorders?

The opportunity to choose between options, in the case of eternal significance, between God and life or Satan and death.

But your god, satan, and an eternal afterlife have yet to be proven to exist. The only "evidence" to their existence is the bible and people like you arguing for their existence. Both sources have been pathetically unconvincing.

 

[JustWondering]

How about nothing.
Nothing caused God.

So you do not believe in cause and effect? If something can exist without a creator doesn't it make more sense to assume that the universe exists without a creator than to assume a magical invisible deity wished it into existence just so some hairless apes could grovel to and worship it?

 

[Cephus]

Well, you have repeatedly denied it, that is true. But the fact that the description is accurate is also true.

Some people are just clueless, I guess. There was a guy on another forum a couple of years ago who swore up and down that he wasn't a racist, he just hated black people. Needless to say, he didn't last long but I doubt he ever understood why the problem arose.

 

[jeager106]

OP
If you can't believe in what cannot be proven.....
What are you doing here in a religious forum?

Wishful thinking?.....in the hope no rational can present God?
Proof is only "proof" with regards to alcohol content and math.
Math is provable, overly simplistic but 2 + 2 = 4.
Science isn't proof, requires no proof. Look it up if you like, probably should.
The Theory of Evolution is a THEROY.
Definition:
the·o·ry
a supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something, especially one based on general principles independent of the thing to be explained.
/ˈTHēərē/ hypothesis, thesis, conjecture, supposition, speculation;

Such as the theory that the universe is an explosion of something infinitely
small-some read "rapid expantion" of something infinitley small.
Infinitely small means so small "it" can not be measured.
Science, to be believed must be repeatable with the same results.
Like water boils at 212 degrees F. That can be repeated easily, measured with
a scientific tool. i.e. ther-mo-meter thermometer.
Very simple example but easy to grasp.
I would also ask why atheists, neo atheist, those desperately attempting to debunk any religious belief of any religion, constanty DEMAND PROOF????
Attempting to prove that which is not provable is a foolish endevor and only plays right into the mind of the atheist who will chop to ribbons any person who attempts to "prove" faith.
I have engaged in this foolish endevor and got my butt wiped by egghead academics with PhDs in science and know how to debate showing excellent skills.
I was a police officer most of my life. "Brevity is the essence of a good report."
Thus, I came, I saw, I gathered facts, here they are, go prosecute.
Perfect. Not for debate however.
So I learned. I learned about the atheist by cleverly setting traps.
I would take my licking and say, "WOW, Mr. buttwipe, you are a fantastic debater.
I admire your keen mind and now I read all these atheist posts and learn
from you fine people."
I say that a lot on that forum to the point that I sucked them right in and used their own demand for proof to bash them in the noggin.
Hold fast to that in which you believe do dearly as do I.
Don't fall for the "science rules" boys & girls.
Frankly they are closer to a deity of some kind than they realize.
Why indeed to they post so emphatically on a religious site that allows them to spread their own flase doctrines?
One PhD on the site I refer to has been a member there and has way over 7,000
posts debunking beliefs and faiths of all and any kind.
I have used his own self image of being an omnipotent being against him in ways that he didn't even recognize untill others began using MY arguments against him.
Hilarious.
Remember also that they aren't all bright with degrees. Some are flat stupid and just look for an argument.
I generally leave that kind alone and just let the eggheads rip him/her apart.