If you can't believe.....

[McBell]

and you are still denying your own possibilities.

You assume to much.

 

[InChrist]

I'm not missing anything. Our minds which we use to make our decisions works in a certain way. If our decisions were the result of some mystical process were we made decisions out of thin air than perhaps you might have a point. However, whatever traits and instincts we possess and the way our brains work is encoded into our genetics. You cannot say a god made everything including us (our minds and souls) from nothing and then in the next breath say god has no responsibility for any decisions we make when he is the designer of our minds. Saying otherwise reduces your god from being god to a extremely powerful mad scientist who cannot control or completely understand his own creations. So which is it? Is god, god or some powerful mad scientist performing some kind of odd experiment we can't fathom the purpose of?

I don't think you quite understand the concept of freedom...real freedom, which means that human beings are not pre-programmed through genetics, instincts or otherwise. According to the scriptures God is love and real love must involve freedom, which in His wisdom He determined was of utmost important to bestow into His creation of humanity. Of course giving living beings the ability to make free choices also opens up the possibility of wrong, destructive choices. You may look at this from your vantage point and decide that God is a mad scientist, but my perspective is that God's vantage point has the complete picture and He knows the final outcome will be good.

 

[Thief]

You assume to much.

Care to expand?.....or I might continue making assumptions.

why not?....you do....

 

[SkepticX]

I don't think you quite understand the concept of freedom...real freedom, which means that human beings are not pre-programmed through genetics, instincts or otherwise.

You mean non-human human beings then?

In any case, I gather you believe in the limited omniscience of God rather than insisting that it's absolute, actual omniscience? Because a truly omnipotent being could have set the rules up any way it wanted to, so how it is doesn't get God off the hook for anything, because it is precisely as a truly omnipotent creator chose to make it, by definition. Going with limited omnicsience somewhat mitigates this problem though.

 

[JustWondering]

I don't think you quite understand the concept of freedom...real freedom, which means that human beings are not pre-programmed through genetics, instincts or otherwise.

Of course we are. Everything we are is flesh and bone which is created through our DNA, our genetic blueprint. That is reality, proven by science. You, on the other hand promote some kind of magical "true" freedom. Where does this "true" freedom that your god supposedly bestowed on us come from?

According to the scriptures God is love and real love must involve freedom, which in His wisdom He determined was of utmost important to bestow into His creation of humanity.

The scriptures also describe how god cursed mankind to suffer when he kicked us out of eden, several bouts of mass murder, and of course hell, where people will be tortured for all eternity. You can save your god is love nonsense for the choir.

Of course giving living beings the ability to make free choices also opens up the possibility of wrong, destructive choices.

When humans make bad choices it is usually only humans that suffer. If god is loving why does he heap addition suffering upon us? What does it accomplish? I don't buy the "we're being tested" argument because it just doesn't hold up. How does a child raised in a Christian culture and loves jesus dying painfully before they even reach the age of six count as a test? Why do others live a full life while others die horribly as children before they even get a real chance at life? What exactly are we being tested for? Do you even know?

You may look at this from your vantage point and decide that God is a mad scientist, but my perspective is that God's vantage point has the complete picture and He knows the final outcome will be good.

From my vantage point your god is just another fictional mythological character like Odin and Zeus.

 

[InChrist]

You mean non-human human beings then?

In any case, I gather you believe in the limited omniscience of God rather than insisting that it's absolute, actual omniscience? Because a truly omnipotent being could have set the rules up any way it wanted to, so how it is doesn't get God off the hook for anything, because it is precisely as a truly omnipotent creator chose to make it, by definition. Going with limited omnicsience somewhat mitigates this problem though.

I don't see it as God having limited omniscience, but that God cannot go against His own character or nature. God cannot set up rules which contradict Himself.

 

[InChrist]

Of course we are. Everything we are is flesh and bone which is created through our DNA, our genetic blueprint. That is reality, proven by science. You, on the other hand promote some kind of magical "true" freedom. Where does this "true" freedom that your god supposedly bestowed on us come from?

I don't believe everything is flesh and bone. For example, our sense of justice, or how about love? Freedom comes from God.

The scriptures also describe how god cursed mankind to suffer when he kicked us out of eden, several bouts of mass murder, and of course hell, where people will be tortured for all eternity. You can save your god is love nonsense for the choir.

And that was a good thing that God brought curse upon sin or it's consequences which you've mentioned would last for eternity. As it is now, sin is limited to time and God has provided a way of escape from the curse of sin and death.

When humans make bad choices it is usually only humans that suffer. If god is loving why does he heap addition suffering upon us? What does it accomplish? I don't buy the "we're being tested" argument because it just doesn't hold up. How does a child raised in a Christian culture and loves jesus dying painfully before they even reach the age of six count as a test? Why do others live a full life while others die horribly as children before they even get a real chance at life? What exactly are we being tested for? Do you even know?

Humans, all humans Christian or non-Christian, suffer in this world because this is a fallen, dying world. I don't have all the answers why terrible things happen to children, but I don't think sin and the resulting evil, sickness, etc. distinguishes between the innocent or guilty. What do you mean when you say "test"? I don't know that it is so much a test as it is a choice.

From my vantage point your god is just another fictional mythological character like Odin and Zeus.

Okay, that's fine and you have the freedom to see things that way, but I think it is a sad thing you don't realize the eternal love God has for you. I personally don't want to be stuck in the state I'm in or the condition this world is in and I opt for the perfect alternative God offers.

 

[JustWondering]

I don't believe everything is flesh and bone. For example, our sense of justice, or how about love? Freedom comes from God.

Love and sense of justice occurs in the brain. The brain is a physical organ that functions as it is told according to its genetics and environment. So you are basically advocating magic.

And that was a good thing that God brought curse upon sin or it's consequences which you've mentioned would last for eternity. As it is now, sin is limited to time and God has provided a way of escape from the curse of sin and death.

The bible clearly states that humans are sinful creatures. If you take away humanities ability to sin are they still human? Are they still free? If humans can exist sin free, why didn't he make us that way to begin with?

Humans, all humans Christian or non-Christian, suffer in this world because this is a fallen, dying world.

Only if you believe in all this "sin" nonsense.

I don't have all the answers why terrible things happen to children, but I don't think sin and the resulting evil, sickness, etc. distinguishes between the innocent or guilty.

I haven't had a biology class in a long time but even I know sickness isn't caused by sin. Most sickness is caused by viruses, bacteria, and there are genetic disorders.

What do you mean when you say "test"? I don't know that it is so much a test as it is a choice.

What do you mean by choice?

Okay, that's fine and you have the freedom to see things that way, but I think it is a sad thing you don't realize the eternal love God has for you.

I don't need an imaginary friend.

 

[bain-druie]

I don't see it as God having limited omniscience, but that God cannot go against His own character or nature. God cannot set up rules which contradict Himself.

Uh, let me be very biblical and contradict you on that one. Scripture contradicts itself all the time, including where it speaks of God's character, or quotes him directly. Ezekiel 18, for instance. So many others ... but yeah, some smartass even made a meme:

 

[bain-druie]

Let's bottom-line this quickly: the god of the bible [assuming for the moment that he is a real character] is very omni-happy. Omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, omniamorous, omnis forever and ever amen.

With all of this limitless power, love, knowledge, etc, he gives creatures freewill. He then punishes them for exercising it in the only possible way. Not too long after that, he destroys not only those he made in his image, but all the other innocent creatures he made so happily in those six days of creation, in a massive flood.

Then he regrets the destruction and promises never to do it again, and gives the straggly creatures left a pretty rainbow to prove it.

Not long after THAT, he kills his own chosen priests for offering 'strange fire', and commands their father not to grieve.

Also, he commanded an old man to be stoned to death for gathering kindling on the sabbath. Not to mention mass genocide of everyone except his chosen favorite tribe - oh, hey, didn't he promise NOT to destroy life, sparing only his favorites, after that flood?

Soon after THAT, he takes his favorite king [David] and punishes him for murder [and possibly rape] by causing David's newborn son to die a lingering death for about a week, if memory serves, enjoying the sight of his favored king wallowing in desperate, futile prayers begging for his tiny son's life.

Somewhere in there he allowed one of his only faithful humans [Job] to suffer unbelievable torments, including the deaths of all his many children, just because God made a bet with Satan whether Job would be sappy enough to keep faith. (He was ... still SMDH over that one)

Not even halfway through the OT, I think, and there's already more than enough reason to wonder what kind of masochist [and/or sufferer of Stockholm Syndrome] would want to spend an afternoon - never mind an eternity - in the presence of such an utter psychopath as this deity.

Simple everyday life, on a planet where everything that lives only perpetuates its life on the death of other living things, makes it painfully obvious that biblical ideas are beyond absurd in light of the reality we live in. I work in restorative nursing, and trust me, I see things every day that reinforce my disgust with the entire concept of the biblical god. His version of 'perfect love' leaves me ... not just 'cold', that's insufficient ... somewhere in the polar wastes.

 

[SkepticX]

I don't see it as God having limited omniscience, but that God cannot go against His own character or nature. God cannot set up rules which contradict Himself.

I recommend the the traditional concept of omniscience/omnipotence is problematically flawed angle. I think it's probably what the God's omniscience isn't limited, it's just limited by his own character (or what he wants) is really trying to get at, because it seems like a much simpler and far less thorny apologetic.

Of course that doesn't let God off the hook for creating the cosmos in the way it is. There's a lot that could be far better and far less cruel and brutal, meaning that if you believe in an omnipotent(ish) creator, that creator has to be pretty nasty, as Bain-Drui so graphically and inescapably put it just above.

 

[Thief]

Of course we are. Everything we are is flesh and bone which is created through our DNA, our genetic blueprint. That is reality, proven by science. You, on the other hand promote some kind of magical "true" freedom. Where does this "true" freedom that your god supposedly bestowed on us come from?




The scriptures also describe how god cursed mankind to suffer when he kicked us out of eden, several bouts of mass murder, and of course hell, where people will be tortured for all eternity. You can save your god is love nonsense for the choir.



When humans make bad choices it is usually only humans that suffer. If god is loving why does he heap addition suffering upon us? What does it accomplish? I don't buy the "we're being tested" argument because it just doesn't hold up. How does a child raised in a Christian culture and loves jesus dying painfully before they even reach the age of six count as a test? Why do others live a full life while others die horribly as children before they even get a real chance at life? What exactly are we being tested for? Do you even know?



From my vantage point your god is just another fictional mythological character like Odin and Zeus.

The story I read was more to the notion....God gave Man dominion.

Got a problem with this world?.....point the finger at your neighbor.
(everyone does)

 

[bain-druie]

The story I read was more to the notion....God gave Man dominion.

Got a problem with this world?.....point the finger at your neighbor.
(everyone does)

Oh no no, that sad old excuse won't do. Someone as decorated with omnis as God does *not* get off the hook that easily; did he grant Man any of his omnis along with freewill and dominion? No. So just what did he expect, in his endless wisdom and love, from a new-formed creature that in comparison with himself is blind, powerless, and totally ignorant?

What would be justice for parents who gave a newborn baby a loaded gun, safety off, and then tortured that baby to 'teach it a lesson about responsibility' when the gun went off and killed the family dog?

The fact is, if you believe the biblical god's self-description, there is no way around the fact that he deliberately created a situation where the fall of our race was inevitable. There is no pointing fingers for the state of this world at anyone with less power, knowledge, and love than the self-described Perfect Creator.

 

[InChrist]

Uh, let me be very biblical and contradict you on that one. Scripture contradicts itself all the time, including where it speaks of God's character, or quotes him directly. Ezekiel 18, for instance. So many others ... but yeah, some smartass even made a meme:

Not quite that simple, unless one reads the scriptures superficially with no desire to know the truth about God or anything else, other than assumedly find quick ways to attack God's character.. Jealousy is certainly a sin when expressed by a selfish human being to satisfy their own needs with disregard for another. God is holy and perfectly righteous. His jealousy is not for Himself or for selfish reasons, but for the good and protection of His creation from harmful influences.

 

[tkdrocks]

I view superstition as the cute little gestures people make trying to control the little things at hand.

Dogma is aimed at God and heaven.

I suppose your lack of faith resulted in a line drawn that you can't see.

*******************************************************************************************8
Superstition:
Excessively credulous belief in and reverence for supernatural beings.

synonyms: unfounded belief, credulity, fallacy, delusion, illusion

Dogma is a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true.[1] It serves as part of the primary basis of an ideology or belief system, and it cannot be changed or discarded without affecting the very system's paradigm, or the ideology itself. The term can refer to acceptable opinions of philosophers or philosophical schools, public decrees, religion, or issued decisions of political authorities.[2]
******************************************************************************************
Per these definitions, I would suggest that Dogma is a collection of superstitions and are both representative of revealed religion. So, neither has much value and are, in fact, regressive in nature.

 

[JustWondering]

Not quite that simple, unless one reads the scriptures superficially with no desire to know the truth about God or anything else, other than assumedly find quick ways to attack God's character.. Jealousy is certainly a sin when expressed by a selfish human being to satisfy their own needs with disregard for another. God is holy and perfectly righteous. His jealousy is not for Himself or for selfish reasons, but for the good and protection of His creation from harmful influences.

I have read the bible cover to cover twice, once when I was Christian. Ironically, reading the bible is what first introduced doubt in christianity in the first place. Reality is the "truth" you profess about god is different from other peoples "truth" about god which is another glaring indication that this is all invented. Just because your "truth" gives you a warm fuzzy inside that is reward and reason enough for you to forsake reason and critically scrutinizing the fantastical and flimsy claims of your theology doesn't make your mythology reality. The eager and mindless desire to give your god a free pass for committing atrocity after atrocity is also illogical. You claim god is supposed to be some moral guide for us but he commits heinous acts against humanity while all the while saying "do as I say not what I do". That is going to create enormous mental dissonance for those capable of thinking for themselves. Many Christians also try to claim free will as the cause of our woes (while ignoring who is responsible for giving us free will in the first place) but the bible does not support this. Every time people deviated from being mindless sycophants god starts smiting people. Your arguments thus far are not supported by reason, evidence, or even your own holy book.

 

[JustWondering]

Got a problem with this world?.....point the finger at your neighbor.
(everyone does)

The world is what it is. At least my world view is not twisted by the warped lens of belief in the supernatural.

 

[Thief]

The world is what it is. At least my world view is not twisted by the warped lens of belief in the supernatural.

And so...you are not expecting to cross over?
and in the meantime....critique the belief of those who do have such expectation?

 

[Thief]

*******************************************************************************************8
Superstition:
Excessively credulous belief in and reverence for supernatural beings.

synonyms: unfounded belief, credulity, fallacy, delusion, illusion

Dogma is a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true.[1] It serves as part of the primary basis of an ideology or belief system, and it cannot be changed or discarded without affecting the very system's paradigm, or the ideology itself. The term can refer to acceptable opinions of philosophers or philosophical schools, public decrees, religion, or issued decisions of political authorities.[2]
******************************************************************************************
Per these definitions, I would suggest that Dogma is a collection of superstitions and are both representative of revealed religion. So, neither has much value and are, in fact, regressive in nature.

I think your line drawn is insufficient.

I don't regard my belief as unfounded.
I hold the creation as the effect.....and God as the Cause.

I believe cause and effect should not be set aside.
I am not superstitious.

 

[Thief]

Oh no no, that sad old excuse won't do. Someone as decorated with omnis as God does *not* get off the hook that easily; did he grant Man any of his omnis along with freewill and dominion? No. So just what did he expect, in his endless wisdom and love, from a new-formed creature that in comparison with himself is blind, powerless, and totally ignorant?

What would be justice for parents who gave a newborn baby a loaded gun, safety off, and then tortured that baby to 'teach it a lesson about responsibility' when the gun went off and killed the family dog?

The fact is, if you believe the biblical god's self-description, there is no way around the fact that he deliberately created a situation where the fall of our race was inevitable. There is no pointing fingers for the state of this world at anyone with less power, knowledge, and love than the self-described Perfect Creator.

Oh no no, that sad old excuse won't do. Someone as decorated with omnis as God does *not* get off the hook that easily; did he grant Man any of his omnis along with freewill and dominion? No. So just what did he expect, in his endless wisdom and love, from a new-formed creature that in comparison with himself is blind, powerless, and totally ignorant?

What would be justice for parents who gave a newborn baby a loaded gun, safety off, and then tortured that baby to 'teach it a lesson about responsibility' when the gun went off and killed the family dog?

The fact is, if you believe the biblical god's self-description, there is no way around the fact that he deliberately created a situation where the fall of our race was inevitable. There is no pointing fingers for the state of this world at anyone with less power, knowledge, and love than the self-described Perfect Creator.

Immediate intervention would hinder spiritual development.
I would not be doing as you please.

If God was watching over your shoulder....would you not be doing something else?

What do you think?..... I'm doing here.