If you can't believe.....

[tkdrocks]

I think your line drawn is insufficient.

I don't regard my belief as unfounded.
I hold the creation as the effect.....and God as the Cause.

I believe cause and effect should not be set aside.
I am not superstitious.

I did not draw any lines. I only supplied accepted definitions. Belief can be defined as unfounded when it does not have supporting evidence (kind of what unfounded means). So, unfortunately, you do fit the description of superstitious, even if it is uncomfortable for you to accept. But don't feel bad, you are not alone. But the numbers are getting better.

 

[JustWondering]

I don't regard my belief as unfounded.

I'm sure it's founded on something very concrete such as.....?

I hold the creation as the effect.....and God as the Cause.

Do you plan to substantiate this claim?

I believe cause and effect should not be set aside.
I am not superstitious.

You believe in an invisible sky daddy and an afterlife which no evidence can be found to support they even exist and you're not superstitious?

 

[SkepticX]

I don't regard my belief as unfounded.[/quote]
Does anyone?

I hold the creation as the effect.....and God as the Cause.

I believe cause and effect should not be set aside.
I am not superstitious.

Sounds like you have a more normal fear of the unknown than most non-believers have.

 

[Thief]

I did not draw any lines. I only supplied accepted definitions. Belief can be defined as unfounded when it does not have supporting evidence (kind of what unfounded means). So, unfortunately, you do fit the description of superstitious, even if it is uncomfortable for you to accept. But don't feel bad, you are not alone. But the numbers are getting better.

I will make my own denial here.....I am not superstitious.
For every effect there is a cause....for every cause there is an effect.
SCIENCE!

And no evidence can be supported by experiment, if the result cannot be associated to the experiment.
You cannot separate the two.
Ever.

So science would take you to the singularity but it must stop there.
The experiment won't fit in the petri dish.

At the point of singularity, cause and effect cannot be dismissed.
Something put it there.

I always say Spirit first.
Substance first has a chain of consequent rational that leads only to the grave.

 

[Thief]

Sounds like you have a more normal fear of the unknown than most non-believers have.

I am not as afraid as most people are.
I do anticipate a higher discipline and code of behavior.
There is a chance the angelic might turn away.

But as you can see, I will not stand ignorant before heaven.

I don't get to say....I don't know.
They will be able to see....I know better.

 

[SkepticX]

I am not as afraid as most people are.

So your posting style isn't really a good indication of your actual demeanor.

Good to know.

 

[tkdrocks]

I will make my own denial here.....I am not superstitious.
For every effect there is a cause....for every cause there is an effect.
SCIENCE!

And no evidence can be supported by experiment, if the result cannot be associated to the experiment.
You cannot separate the two.
Ever.

So science would take you to the singularity but it must stop there.
The experiment won't fit in the petri dish.

At the point of singularity, cause and effect cannot be dismissed.
Something put it there.

I always say Spirit first.
Substance first has a chain of consequent rational that leads only to the grave.

"I am not a triangle." said the 3-sided figure.

Do you think that throwing out the word "Science" along with some unintelligible babble moves things forward, I have to wonder about how honest you are with yourself. To be clear, I am talking about specific belief in a well defined Deity, not a general existence of a higher power. If you mean cause and effect as something like, "We exist, so therefore, God." It is at best an argument for Deism, but more likely an excellent example of "argument from ignorance".

I am not sure how you wandered onto experiment related to evidence. For evidence is a platform supported by facts. Experimentation does help prove or disprove theories. But the one thing that is true about experiments is that they are always falsifiable. If not, they are not experiments, but trials.

So, I will re-iterate, if you believe in a specific deity and act based on a testimony, story, holy book, mantra or any other supportable evidence, then you are, by the textbook definition, superstitious. You need to own that.

 

[tkdrocks]

I am not as afraid as most people are.

Do you have some sort of fear detecting device? Fear is best demonstrated by how one acts or reacts. For example, I believe in X because I am afraid Y will happen if I do not.

I do anticipate a higher discipline and code of behavior.
There is a chance the angelic might turn away.

Restated, "I am AFRAID the angelic might turn away". Sounds like fear to me.

But as you can see, I will not stand ignorant before heaven.
I don't get to say....I don't know.

Ignorant of what? The threat of Hell or Damnation? This sounds like belief based upon fear to me.

From these statements, I would consider you MORE afraid than most people.

 

[Thief]

Do you have some sort of fear detecting device? Fear is best demonstrated by how one acts or reacts. For example, I believe in X because I am afraid Y will happen if I do not.



Restated, "I am AFRAID the angelic might turn away". Sounds like fear to me.

Ignorant of what? The threat of Hell or Damnation? This sounds like belief based upon fear to me.

From these statements, I would consider you MORE afraid than most people.

There is more than one kind of fear.
I fear you might not understand.
That doesn't mean I shake or tremble.

Now in that hour of judgment, as I stand from the dust....
THAT event might shake my being.
(just a natural reaction)

 

[Thief]

"I am not a triangle." said the 3-sided figure.

Do you think that throwing out the word "Science" along with some unintelligible babble moves things forward, I have to wonder about how honest you are with yourself. To be clear, I am talking about specific belief in a well defined Deity, not a general existence of a higher power. If you mean cause and effect as something like, "We exist, so therefore, God." It is at best an argument for Deism, but more likely an excellent example of "argument from ignorance".

I am not sure how you wandered onto experiment related to evidence. For evidence is a platform supported by facts. Experimentation does help prove or disprove theories. But the one thing that is true about experiments is that they are always falsifiable. If not, they are not experiments, but trials.

So, I will re-iterate, if you believe in a specific deity and act based on a testimony, story, holy book, mantra or any other supportable evidence, then you are, by the textbook definition, superstitious. You need to own that.

I believe in cause and effect.
Spirit first.
Otherwise, substance first throws all of life to physical form....and nothing more.
THAT makes Man a complete mystery with no purpose or resolve.
and it puts you in the grave with no hope.

 

[tkdrocks]

Not quite that simple, unless one reads the scriptures superficially with no desire to know the truth about God or anything else, other than assumedly find quick ways to attack God's character.. Jealousy is certainly a sin when expressed by a selfish human being to satisfy their own needs with disregard for another. God is holy and perfectly righteous. His jealousy is not for Himself or for selfish reasons, but for the good and protection of His creation from harmful influences.

I have heard of Christianity or other Abrahamic religions being compared to Stockholm Syndrome and also to an abusive relationship. I think that you are making a good case for that. Jealousy is, by its very definition, a selfish emotion. God demands worship and to be the first consideration, otherwise, he is going to unleash his wrath upon you. How many wives have defended their husbands violent acts as in their overall best interest. Fortunately, this is becoming a thing of the past (at least in the U.S.). Once people started to realize that violence is still inappropriate, no matter the position of authority.

I am sure that there was many a slave that defended their masters, saying that they only beat me for my own good or my master beats me less than other masters.

God is holy and perfectly righteous.

How is it that you know this? Is it by reading the Bible? If so, you should read the entire book to make your evaluation. It would seem that there is, at best an inconsistent description of the nature of the Judaic God. More likely, it is a collection of human written and biased, evolving opinions compiled into a collection of scrolls.

 

[tkdrocks]

There is more than one kind of fear.
I fear you might not understand.
That doesn't mean I shake or tremble.

Now in that hour of judgment, as I stand from the dust....
THAT event might shake my being.
(just a natural reaction)

Indeed, there is more than one type of fear. Per this assessment, The (Only) 5 Fears We All Share | Psychology Today , there are only 5 types.

1. Extinction—the fear of annihilation, of ceasing to exist. This is a more fundamental way to express it than just calling it "fear of death." The idea of no longer being arouses a primary existential anxiety in all normal humans. Consider that panicky feeling you get when you look over the edge of a high building.
2. Mutilation—the fear of losing any part of our precious bodily structure; the thought of having our body's boundaries invaded, or of losing the integrity of any organ, body part, or natural function. Anxiety about animals, such as bugs, spiders, snakes, and other creepy things arises from fear of mutilation.
3. Loss of Autonomy—the fear of being immobilized, paralyzed, restricted, enveloped, overwhelmed, entrapped, imprisoned, smothered, or otherwise controlled by circumstances beyond our control. In physical form, it's commonly known as claustrophobia, but it also extends to our social interactions and relationships.
4. Separation—the fear of abandonment, rejection, and loss of connectedness; of becoming a non-person—not wanted, respected, or valued by anyone else. The "silent treatment," when imposed by a group, can have a devastating psychological effect on its target.
5. Ego-death—the fear of humiliation, shame, or any other mechanism of profound self-disapproval that threatens the loss of integrity of the Self; the fear of the shattering or disintegration of one's constructed sense of lovability, capability, and worthiness.

No matter which category that you fall into, if you believe or take action based upon unsubstantiated fear, then you are acting superstiously. Even worse, if you are spreading a message that others should believe or act per these fears, then you are a peddler of fear.

 

[Nakosis]

How is it that you know this? Is it by reading the Bible? If so, you should read the entire book to make your evaluation. It would seem that there is, at best an inconsistent description of the nature of the Judaic God. More likely, it is a collection of human written and biased, evolving opinions compiled into a collection of scrolls.

It's fascinating how people create a virtual reality in their head and confuse it with an objective reality. No doubt the same way biblical authors convinced themselves in their God.

People go forth with such certainty teaching others about the virtual truth.

I suppose it is easy to question what others believe, not so easy to question what you yourself believe.

So sure I believe, I believe in a lot of things. I just don't feel any necessity of having anyone else believe them.

 

[tkdrocks]

I believe in cause and effect.
Spirit first.
Otherwise, substance first throws all of life to physical form....and nothing more.
THAT makes Man a complete mystery with no purpose or resolve.
and it puts you in the grave with no hope.

Do you have anything besides an argument for Deism? How do you support your more specific beliefs? You are starting to sound pretty insecure by repeating the same thing over and over.

What is wrong with man being a complete mystery? At least we aren't claiming to know the unknowable. I would argue that there is plenty of purpose and resolve without "knowing" how we came to be. We can create a purpose of improving our relationship with other humans. We can resolve to make this life as valuable as possible.

That puts me in the grave without (hope) or unsubstantiated, wishful thinking. I will grant you that. I think that is a very good thing.

 

[McBell]

I believe in cause and effect.

then toss it out the window the second it stops helping your beliefs...

 

[viole]

That's a rather lazy approach. You say it just so they don't have to provide proof. If they really don't think God exists, than there should be some kind of evidence to support such a claim. Then again it all depends what you consider to be a "deity" Like with aliens? There's definitely alien life there. It's not just evidence that comes to play it's common sense. Again with aliens, out of the billions of galaxies, it's seems extremely unlikely we're the only intelligent life form out there. Or why would it be implausible to think that maybe there's a alien race that cannot only manipulate technology but matter as well, right down to the atoms?

I find it to be extraordinary claim to say "No deity exists" And that requires extraordinary evidence, and yet when a theist believes in a deity, they are expected to provide evidence? There's no consistency there.

Let me ask you a question: is it an extraordinary claim to say that gravitation is always attractive?

I guess yes, since I cannot really say whether all objects in the universe attract each other gravitationally. Maybe there are some which repel each other. Who can say, i did not inspect every corner of the universe.

For this reason, do you think it is a bad idea to teach the attractive forces of gravitation at school since we have no extraordinary evidence that ALL objects in the universe attract each other gravitationally?

If not, why not? And how is my claim "there is no God" different from saying that "there are no objects repelling themselves gravitationally" given the fact that they have the same exact evidence?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Theweirdtophat]

Let me ask you a question: is it an extraordinary claim to say that gravitation is always attractive?

I guess yes, since I cannot really say whether all objects in the universe attract each other gravitationally. Maybe there are some which repel each other. Who can say, i did not inspect every corner of the universe.

For this reason, do you think it is a bad idea to teach the attractive forces of gravitation at school since we have no extraordinary evidence that ALL objects in the universe attract each other gravitationally?

If not, why not? And how is my claim "there is no God" different from saying that "there are no objects repelling themselves gravitationally" given the fact that they have the same exact evidence?

Ciao

- viole

We know gravity exists, it's how gravity really works that has people talk about it.

 

[bain-druie]

Not quite that simple, unless one reads the scriptures superficially with no desire to know the truth about God or anything else, other than assumedly find quick ways to attack God's character.. Jealousy is certainly a sin when expressed by a selfish human being to satisfy their own needs with disregard for another. God is holy and perfectly righteous. His jealousy is not for Himself or for selfish reasons, but for the good and protection of His creation from harmful influences.

Weak. So weak, in fact, that I cannot even call it a weak argument, for it is no argument at all.

If you want to tell me it's not that simple, you must also tell me why, and provide evidence, sources, SOMEthing other than your own reactionary, emotion-based [and therefore blind] defense of the indefensible. You answered none of the actual points in my second post, *and* you indulged in presumption about my motivations, of which you know less than nothing.

This is a grown-up debate board. Don't turn to personal attacks in desperation; it's pathetic, and does nothing to make either you or your god look more reasonable.

 

[bain-druie]

Immediate intervention would hinder spiritual development.
I would not be doing as you please.

If God was watching over your shoulder....would you not be doing something else?

What do you think?..... I'm doing here.

This literally makes no sense to me.

 

[Thief]

This literally makes no sense to me.

You have freewill.
If God was looking over your shoulder.....would it still be there?