If you don't believe in.........

[The Wizard]

I'm not going to say chi doesn't exist as I don't have the scientific know-how to do so. However, I've studied and practiced various different martial arts and relaxation techniques that involve chi. From my own experience it seems to be mostly about using certain parts of the body and certain meditation techniques to achieve an effect. Now from an ancient's point of view, disabling somebody with a touch would likely be regarded as supernatural, but we now know how it works and the manipulation of an unkown force doesn't seem to be involved. It's all about anatomy and (in the case of "energy work") psychology. Would you say that this could be an accurate idea of how chi works or do you believe it is something more?

By the way, I'm not setting a trap here, just interested to know how you percieve chi. Also, I fully approve of using the term chi to describe the various physiological and psychological effects of martial arts and relaxation techniques. I think it's far more interesting than describing it in scientific terms (despite the fact that this is how I personally believe it works).

I think then I should let you know that my meditation practices don't have anything to do with martial arts, wizardry or working with chakras. It does involve "the third eye or pineal gland" though, which I still do not reffer to as a chakra. Even to this day I have no idea what people are talking about when reffering to spinning the chakra wheels in the points of the body. I think there could be a misconception involved.

I would however consider what others call, "chakras" as centering points and the more one centers their concentrated awareness on point, the more there is a "bulls eye spinning movement" caused by the narrowing center of focus- like a pendulum circling around and hanging on a string. Most still think they are supposed to actually physically "spin" something. That could make it nothing more than visualization for them.

The martial arts version of using chi I have no knowledge or experience over. I would not even know how it would be possible. I have seen many videos, spinning paper chi wheels, knocking people down or making other's bodies go bizerk and so forth. I have never experienced anything of the sort.

I am writing a book explaining my experiences over meditation and that phenomina, but people are not going to gain any proof of that energy (by any name it would be called) by watching videos... they will have to experience it in real life.

I guess my best description of this phenomina, based on my experience, is that it is a concentration of life force, or some type of other subtle energy that most are not aware of and is not understood or easily accepted in the scientific arena.

I have had many strange things happen while I was deep into the practice. I think the most compelling one is that when my significant other would be next to me, at almost any time she would know when I was "secretly" meditating, because she would feel a sensation not unlike static electricity on her lower legs.

Like I have mentioned I knew nothing about those subtle energies when I started to experience them... there was no placebo or aspect of suggestion involved- my beliefs had nothing to do with it presenting itself. I hope that helped...

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The martial arts version of using chi I have no knowledge or experience over. I would not even know how it would be possible. I have seen many videos, spinning paper chi wheels, knocking people down or making other's bodies go bizerk and so forth. I have never experienced anything of the sort.

They refer to "chi" (or "ki" in Japanese) in my martial arts, but it isn't presented as supernatural: we use it a lot like the word "spirit" is used in English when talking about sports, and if you think of "projecting your ki" (which is supposed to emanate from your solar plexus) at your opponent, it has the effect of squaring you up to your opponent, which makes you generally stronger and more stable... but that's just posture.

 

[The Wizard]

They refer to "chi" (or "ki" in Japanese) in my martial arts, but it isn't presented as supernatural: we use it a lot like the word "spirit" is used in English when talking about sports, and if you think of "projecting your ki" (which is supposed to emanate from your solar plexus) at your opponent, it has the effect of squaring you up to your opponent, which makes you generally stronger and more stable... but that's just posture.

I am betting there are countless ways the phenomina would be used or interpreted- dependant on the lifestyle and lens of the culture and people. There are probably 100 names that reffer to the same thing- or perhaps there is other subtle energies or variations (or variations of use) of the same thing out there. I can definately understand the attribution of such words as, spirit or life force for such energy.

It would be reffered to as supernatural for those that know nothing about it. I am sure it could possibly frighten someone. My partner would get goosebumps and be uncomfortable when she first encountered it.

It does feel somewhat like what would be describe as a ghost or spirit at times. Over the years, this energy has become normal for me and I use it for many purposes. However, I would like state that anyone who uses such abilities and things on others and for selfish purposes will curse theirself... IMO.

 

[ninerbuff]

I think then I should let you know that my meditation practices don't have anything to do with martial arts, wizardry or working with chakras. It does involve "the third eye or pineal gland" though, which I still do not reffer to as a chakra. Even to this day I have no idea what people are talking about when reffering to spinning the chakra wheels in the points of the body. I think there could be a misconception involved.

I would however consider what others call, "chakras" as centering points and the more one centers their concentrated awareness on point, the more there is a "bulls eye spinning movement" caused by the narrowing center of focus- like a pendulum circling around and hanging on a string. Most still think they are supposed to actually physically "spin" something. That could make it nothing more than visualization for them.

The martial arts version of using chi I have no knowledge or experience over. I would not even know how it would be possible. I have seen many videos, spinning paper chi wheels, knocking people down or making other's bodies go bizerk and so forth. I have never experienced anything of the sort.

I am writing a book explaining my experiences over meditation and that phenomina, but people are not going to gain any proof of that energy (by any name it would be called) by watching videos... they will have to experience it in real life.

I guess my best description of this phenomina, based on my experience, is that it is a concentration of life force, or some type of other subtle energy that most are not aware of and is not understood or easily accepted in the scientific arena.

I have had many strange things happen while I was deep into the practice. I think the most compelling one is that when my significant other would be next to me, at almost any time she would know when I was "secretly" meditating, because she would feel a sensation not unlike static electricity on her lower legs.

Like I have mentioned I knew nothing about those subtle energies when I started to experience them... there was no placebo or aspect of suggestion involved- my beliefs had nothing to do with it presenting itself. I hope that helped...

chi isn't any different than those bunk magnetic health wrist bands that people are claiming increase their inner energy. Of course the band doesn't work if you don't believe in it.

 

[The Wizard]

chi isn't any different than those bunk magnetic health wrist bands that people are claiming increase their inner energy. Of course the band doesn't work if you don't believe in it.

So, you're saying everything can be reduced down to the level of a magic wristband and there is nothing there but a placebo effect. That one only works in America. The tradition here does not have much to do with such subtle energies as chi or prana.

I don't think you would want to go into other "thousand year old" traditions, cultures and countries and try to convince them of that. They would give you a clown outfit ... Would they not?

 

[genenuega]

if you don't believe in god, surely the devil believes in you...

 

[ninerbuff]

So, you're saying everything can be reduced down to the level of a magic wristband and there is nothing there but a placebo effect. That one only works in America. The tradition here does not have much to do with such subtle energies as chi or prana.

I don't think you would want to go into other "thousand year old" traditions, cultures and countries and try to convince them of that. They would give you a clown outfit ... Would they not?

Sorry but "thousand year old" traditions have changed from what they originally were. Where shamans and witch doctors were the only healer in days of yore, they have been replaced by doctors who actually use proven and tested medicines for cure in countries that believed in these "magic" healers.
The problem is that like religion, these traditions have no way to be proven to not exist, so hordes of people who are raised in believing they do, believe they still do. Even if shown that they don't scientifically, or even logically, like religion they have to hold on for some sort of hope.
Magicians and illusionists amaze us all the time with "tricks" that defy logic, yet we ALL know that they aren't superbeings that possess powers. They are just well crafted at their art. Much like those that preach religion to an audience.

 

[LuisDantas]

if you don't believe in god, surely the devil believes in you...

Humourous answer: let him play poker with me sometime, then.

Somewhat more serious answer: I wonder why do you think so, other than having been taught that way.

 

[crocusj]

if you don't believe in god, surely the devil believes in you...

Or more correctly, you believe that the devil believes

 

[The Wizard]

Sorry but "thousand year old" traditions have changed from what they originally were. Where shamans and witch doctors were the only healer in days of yore, they have been replaced by doctors who actually use proven and tested medicines for cure in countries that believed in these "magic" healers.
The problem is that like religion, these traditions have no way to be proven to not exist, so hordes of people who are raised in believing they do, believe they still do. Even if shown that they don't scientifically, or even logically, like religion they have to hold on for some sort of hope.
Magicians and illusionists amaze us all the time with "tricks" that defy logic, yet we ALL know that they aren't superbeings that possess powers. They are just well crafted at their art. Much like those that preach religion to an audience.

I am not sure what your point is in that post. I am still just replying towards your OP saying that all those things are nothing but a placebo effect- or that it can all be reduced down to some cheap trinket, mood ring or wristband. I just think there is more to it.

I would go to the parts of the World where those practices are still in effect and haven't been interupted before making any such conclusions. I mean, you're going on about thousand year old practices and you're an American living in an American made envirement. What could someone so detached from such traditions and places even know about it?

I know from experience and even have witnesses that that is in fact not true. Did you not read anything in my posts when regarding chi (or at least the energies that the name chi reffers to)? My beliefs had nothing to do with experiencing that energy and others experiencing it- therefore being more than a placebo. If you want to ignore that then go ahead.

I am sure belief is involved with most those things. But, involvement of such beliefs don't mean that a placebo effect is all thats going on or that the belief iteself didn't originate from a real phenomina that was independant of someone's belief. Could belief be a catalyst? Of course. But, that don't explain much about anything else involved does it?

I have visited indian reservations and shamans and all such people still exist even in America. The water I drink was also located by a water witch who uses a divining rod made of willow. Why willow? If belief was all that was needed then they would just use anything (e.g.). All they would have to do is believe in it and use any stick like Dumbo. Right? So, is there not a connection or energy for which those people are tuned into and using? So, would you also lump that phenomina into your placebo effect pile?

What I'm trying to say is that just because something is mysterious and defies the American scientific authoritarian mind, reducing everything down to just Dumbo holding his magic feather or a "bunk placebo wristband" sounds quite irrational. Does it not?

 

[genenuega]

Or more correctly, you believe that the devil believes

touché

 

[ninerbuff]

I am not sure what your point is in that post. I am still just replying towards your OP saying that all those things are nothing but a placebo effect- or that it can all be reduced down to some cheap trinket, mood ring or wristband. I just think there is more to it.

I would go to the parts of the World where those practices are still in effect and haven't been interupted before making any such conclusions. I mean, you're going on about thousand year old practices and you're an American living in an American made envirement. What could someone so detached from such traditions and places even know about it?

I know from experience and even have witnesses that that is in fact not true. Did you not read anything in my posts when regarding chi (or at least the energies that the name chi reffers to)? My beliefs had nothing to do with experiencing that energy and others experiencing it- therefore being more than a placebo. If you want to ignore that then go ahead.

I am sure belief is involved with most those things. But, involvement of such beliefs don't mean that a placebo effect is all thats going on or that the belief iteself didn't originate from a real phenomina that was independant of someone's belief. Could belief be a catalyst? Of course. But, that don't explain much about anything else involved does it?

I have visited indian reservations and shamans and all such people still exist even in America. The water I drink was also located by a water witch who uses a divining rod made of willow. Why willow? If belief was all that was needed then they would just use anything (e.g.). All they would have to do is believe in it and use any stick like Dumbo. Right? So, is there not a connection or energy for which those people are tuned into and using? So, would you also lump that phenomina into your placebo effect pile?

What I'm trying to say is that just because something is mysterious and defies the American scientific authoritarian mind, reducing everything down to just Dumbo holding his magic feather or a "bunk placebo wristband" sounds quite irrational. Does it not?

I spent a substantial part of my life living in the Philippines and in the Northern Marianas islands which were inundated with superstition. My mother was an OBYN working for an Indian reservation in Winslow. So to say I'm haven't been exposed nor have any knowledge would be inaccurate. So do you think "rain dances" still work? Or sleeping in pointing in certain directions (north, south, east, west) to encourage "chi" will help with fertility to have a child? Again, these experiences are coincidental and unless CONSISTENT each time you do it, it's nothing more.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I have visited indian reservations and shamans and all such people still exist even in America. The water I drink was also located by a water witch who uses a divining rod made of willow. Why willow? If belief was all that was needed then they would just use anything (e.g.). All they would have to do is believe in it and use any stick like Dumbo. Right? So, is there not a connection or energy for which those people are tuned into and using? So, would you also lump that phenomina into your placebo effect pile?

That sounds like it's more a matter of confirmation bias than the placebo effect: counting the hits and ignoring (or discounting) the misses.

BTW - if your "water witch" friend really can do what he/she says, there's a fair bit of money in it for him/her:

At JREF, we offer a one-million-dollar prize to anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event. The JREF does not involve itself in the testing procedure, other than helping to design the protocol and approving the conditions under which a test will take place. All tests are designed with the participation and approval of the applicant. In most cases, the applicant will be asked to perform a relatively simple preliminary test of the claim, which if successful, will be followed by the formal test. Preliminary tests are usually conducted by associates of the JREF at the site where the applicant lives. Upon success in the preliminary testing process, the "applicant" becomes a "claimant."
To date, no one has passed the preliminary tests.

Challenge Info

Quite a few dowsers have applied, but none have been successful: Challenge Applications - JREF Forum

If dowsing works, it'd be very cool to have some evidentiary support for it. There are a lot of people going without proper water in the world; if it's real, and you help to convince people that it's real, you could do some real good.

So how about it?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I spent a substantial part of my life living in the Philippines and in the Northern Marianas islands which were inundated with superstition. My mother was an OBYN working for an Indian reservation in Winslow. So to say I'm haven't been exposed nor have any knowledge would be inaccurate. So do you think "rain dances" still work? Or sleeping in pointing in certain directions (north, south, east, west) to encourage "chi" will help with fertility to have a child? Again, these experiences are coincidental and unless CONSISTENT each time you do it, it's nothing more.

Also, it's hard to accurately attribute effects to their causes a lot of the time.

If a couple is trying to have a baby and simultaneously changes their sleeping directions, tries conceiving on different days of the month, takes herbal folk remedies and gets treatment from a conventional doctor, when they do conceive, which cause do they credit? It could be any one of them; maybe none of them actually did anything and it all came down to random chance. Without rigorous investigation, there's no way to be sure.

 

[The Wizard]

@9-10ths.. About the water witch-yes- Big companies pay those people thousands to do their stuff. The Native American, shaman type individual was a professional "water witch". Even the name sounds voodoish. I still laugh at the word. But, what can I do when I drink from the same water everyday and get reminded of it? Even with my understandings I cannot figure out how they do it and just accept that those things exist.

My theory is that some people have a type of special ability or sense going back to the survival days. The goverment also spent big money using Native Americans for remote viewing and other such "psychic type" research. Now, why would they do that if there is nothing to it or just a placebo effect? I'm just saying...

@ninerbuff. O.K... now you're mentioning some other interesting things. I am not saying that everything mystical is more than a placebo effect. There are certainly many things that can be due to "strictly" just a placebo effect.

The "rain dances" are interesting for sure. First, I am not going to say that such ceremonies do not attract rain. Some people can attract or influence animals just by doing a special meditation or ceremony, so... who knows? I wasn't there, lol. But, I did notice in my meditation days that every time I decided to meditate it would start raining while I was meditating.

After months of this happening right in front of my face I could of easily drawn the conclusion that meditation somehow attracted rain. So, I did an experiment. For a couple weeks, when I chose to do a meditation session for that day I would change my mind and not meditate... sure enough it would rain at about same time I would be meditating.

The conclusion I drew out of all this is that my body or subconscious was sensing it was going to rain and that somehow influenced me to want to meditate. The meditation and the rain were "in sync." The meditation didn't cause any rain whatsoever.

But, some other sense in which I was not aware of caused me to meditate in sync with rain. Afterwards, I could "know" beyond a doubt if it was going to rain just by checking my urge to meditate for that day or night- like how some people feel their joint pains in refference to a specific weather pattern. My marker was not a physical thing, but it was a subtle urge or prompt.

This same deal offers an explanation for rain dances. They are already in sync with the weather and don't realize it. However, to anyone unaware of the process it would look like rain dances "cause" rain. So, anyway that would be my take on it. The problem here is that the phenomina is still not explained- there is still other things involved there- just like the water witch scenerio... IMO.

 

[ninerbuff]

@9-10ths.. About the water witch-yes- Big companies pay those people thousands to do their stuff. The Native American, shaman type individual was a professional "water witch". Even the name sounds voodoish. I still laugh at the word. But, what can I do when I drink from the same water everyday and get reminded of it? Even with my understandings I cannot figure out how they do it and just accept that those things exist.

My theory is that some people have a type of special ability or sense going back to the survival days. The goverment also spent big money using Native Americans for remote viewing and other such "psychic type" research. Now, why would they do that if there is nothing to it or just a placebo effect? I'm just saying...

@ninerbuff. O.K... now you're mentioning some other interesting things. I am not saying that everything mystical is more than a placebo effect. There are certainly many things that can be due to "strictly" just a placebo effect.

The "rain dances" are interesting for sure. First, I am not going to say that such ceremonies do not attract rain. Some people can attract or influence animals just by doing a special meditation or ceremony, so... who knows? I wasn't there, lol. But, I did notice in my meditation days that every time I decided to meditate it would start raining while I was meditating.

After months of this happening right in front of my face I could of easily drawn the conclusion that meditation somehow attracted rain. So, I did an experiment. For a couple weeks, when I chose to do a meditation session for that day I would change my mind and not meditate... sure enough it would rain at about same time I would be meditating.

The conclusion I drew out of all this is that my body or subconscious was sensing it was going to rain and that somehow influenced me to want to meditate. The meditation and the rain were "in sync." The meditation didn't cause any rain whatsoever.

But, some other sense in which I was not aware of caused me to meditate in sync with rain. Afterwards, I could "know" beyond a doubt if it was going to rain just by checking my urge to meditate for that day or night- like how some people feel their joint pains in refference to a specific weather pattern. My marker was not a physical thing, but it was a subtle urge or promt.

This same deal offers an explanation for rain dances. They are already in sync with the weather and don't realize it. However, to anyone unaware of the process it would look like rain dances "cause" rain. So, anyway that would be my take on it. The problem here is that the phenomina is still not explained- there is still other things involved there- just like the water witch scenerio... IMO.

It's anecdotal, but I wasn't there so we just go by your word. Either that or you live in Seattle, WA!

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

@9-10ths.. About the water witch-yes- Big companies pay those people thousands to do their stuff. The Native American, shaman type individual was a professional "water witch". Even the name sounds voodoish. I still laugh at the word. But, what can I do when I drink from the same water everyday and get reminded of it? Even with my understandings I cannot figure out how they do it and just accept that those things exist.

I'm not talking about corporate contracts; I'm talking about independent, rigorous, evidence-based corroboration.

I'm not saying that making lots of money makes the practice demonstrably valid; I'm saying that if it's valid, and if it can be demonstrated, then your "water witch" stands to make a million dollars for doing nothing more than she/he does professionally.

My theory is that some people have a type of special ability or sense going back to the survival days. The goverment also spent big money using Native Americans for remote viewing and other such "psychic type" research. Now, why would they do that if there is nothing to it or just a placebo effect? I'm just saying...

The government makes a lot of bad decisions. That's not support.

 

[The Wizard]

I'm not talking about corporate contracts; I'm talking about independent, rigorous, evidence-based corroboration.

I'm not saying that making lots of money makes the practice demonstrably valid; I'm saying that if it's valid, and if it can be demonstrated, then your "water witch" stands to make a million dollars for doing nothing more than she/he does professionally.


The government makes a lot of bad decisions. That's not support.

9-10ths Penguin... I was agreeing with you about your previous post. I think you misunderstood my intention. I was just mentioning more about the water witch profession and phenomina. I wasn't implying anything else.. IMO.