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I'm a Unificationist, ask me questions!

Spirited

Bring about world peace
spirited: you say you are not brainwashed or indoctrinated, but what intelligent, self respecting person would believe the claims of some poor asian dude from north korea of being GOD, in hopes of becoming wealthy off of the backs of the weak and credulous (which unfortunately is exactly what he managed to do). its no coincidence that your faith has been prosecuted by many governments for money fraud.... tell me, since your great leader sun moon jupiter started this faith, how much money has he made? how much was he worth before, and how much now?

why dont you believe in scientology too while you are at it? i know they would love to get a piece of your life savings too.... why dont you believe in jose louis de jesus miranda who also claims to be the second coming of christ and also has a great following and became wealthy off of the backs of his followers? WHAT A JOKE.

Because the Divine Principle is the single most incredible theological or philosophical work ever produced. That and I've personally watched his life style and seen that he doesn't actually use that money for anything but starting more companies that in some way or another promote our cause.

It's not like he's leading some secret lifestyle that nobody knows about and that you have all this information that I don't. I was literally his next door neighbor for a year in Korea and he's home enjoying his "lavish lifestyle" about three to four days a month if even that. Do you think that the second coming of Christ would be able to survive in this day and age without money and an education?

I find you to be the one who is brainwashed. You decide that something is wrong based on biased, negative media coverage - largely paid for and proliferated by other religious organizations - without ever reading into their actual belief system. You also don't have the slightest clue how to form a compelling and convincing argument. Unless your only goal is to deface me for some sick sense of satisfaction that you get, you are not actually achieving anything but insulting what you ***** to be my lack of intelligence.

I don't believe in Scientology because the CLAIMS and DOCTRINE are absurd. Who would just say "WOW THIS GUY SAYS HES THE MESSIAH, HE MUST BE", I follow him and believe him because of the content of his work, not simply because of a statement that he has made. If that is the definition of being brainwashed, than I'm afraid that the Jesus has some answering to do as well.
 

zuluniner

Member
Because the Divine Principle is the single most incredible theological or philosophical work ever produced. That and I've personally watched his life style and seen that he doesn't actually use that money for anything but starting more companies that in some way or another promote our cause.

It's not like he's leading some secret lifestyle that nobody knows about and that you have all this information that I don't. I was literally his next door neighbor for a year in Korea and he's home enjoying his "lavish lifestyle" about three to four days a month if even that. Do you think that the second coming of Christ would be able to survive in this day and age without money and an education?

I find you to be the one who is brainwashed. You decide that something is wrong based on biased, negative media coverage - largely paid for and proliferated by other religious organizations - without ever reading into their actual belief system. You also don't have the slightest clue how to form a compelling and convincing argument. Unless your only goal is to deface me for some sick sense of satisfaction that you get, you are not actually achieving anything but insulting what you ***** to be my lack of intelligence.

I don't believe in Scientology because the CLAIMS and DOCTRINE are absurd. Who would just say "WOW THIS GUY SAYS HES THE MESSIAH, HE MUST BE", I follow him and believe him because of the content of his work, not simply because of a statement that he has made. If that is the definition of being brainwashed, than I'm afraid that the Jesus has some answering to do as well.

how many expensive cars and mansions has this guy been given directly or indirectly by his followers? how many billions of dollars? the true jesus never took advantage of his followers. he lived a humble lifestyle and didnt build himself a palace or surround himself by material objects. even when he could have chosen a beautiful stallion to ride on, he chose a humble donkey.... your guy is flying private jets and is being chauffeured around in quarter million dollar maybachs everywhere he goes. quite a contrast id say.

how is scientology any more absurd than your religion? please elaborate.

you also havent answered my question about jose louis de jesus miranda. he makes the same claims your leader does. maybe if you were his neighbor in puerto rico rather than sun moon's neighbor in korea you would sit here on your high horse preaching about how he is the one true christ, and how the korean guy is a fraud. you would be the one pointing out all the facts flying in the face of unificationism

another question to you. if this sun moon guy is god/jesus. why doesnt he also perform a miracle or two? curious how he never regrows an amputees limb or something of that nature.... im sure you will have a smart excuse/justification for that too.
 

javajo

Well-Known Member
If the Messiah were to come on the clouds like the bible says, then why would the bible also say:

"But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation" -Luke 17:25

Clearly if Jesus came on the clouds with all the trumpets and angels proclaiming his entry, would he not be readily accepted by all? So why would Jesus say the second coming would be rejected and suffer?
He was rejected and suffered at his first coming, he will rule and reign at his Second Coming.

Relatedly, the bible says, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed." -Luke 17:20
Right, the Kingdom of God is within all who believe in Jesus. The Kingdom of Heaven (and the Kingdom of God as well) will be at his Second Coming. They are not one in the same, yet.

The Divine Principle addresses this: "Even at the first advent, the Kingdom of God had already arrived on the earth with the birth of Jesus. Yet the Jewish people could not see it, for since they were still waiting for the return of Elijah from heaven, they could not believe in Jesus.
That's fairly accurate.
Likewise, at the Second Advent, although the Kingdom of God will dawn upon the earth with the birth of Christ, Christians who believe that he will come on the clouds accompanied by supernatural events will disbelieve in the Lord and thus not see the Kingdom of God." -Divine Principle pg 387
I do not believe this nor is it Biblical. The Second Advent does not dawn with another 'birth of Christ', but the Bible says he will come with his saints and defeat the Antichrist and he will set up his Millennial Reign. Looks like this man want us to believe he is Jesus, eh? That's a false teacher in my book.
 

Spirited

Bring about world peace
how many expensive cars and mansions has this guy been given directly or indirectly by his followers? how many billions of dollars? the true jesus never took advantage of his followers. he lived a humble lifestyle and didnt build himself a palace or surround himself by material objects. even when he could have chosen a beautiful stallion to ride on, he chose a humble donkey.... your guy is flying private jets and is being chauffeured around in quarter million dollar maybachs everywhere he goes. quite a contrast id say.

how is scientology any more absurd than your religion? please elaborate.

you also havent answered my question about jose louis de jesus miranda. he makes the same claims your leader does. maybe if you were his neighbor in puerto rico rather than sun moon's neighbor in korea you would sit here on your high horse preaching about how he is the one true christ, and how the korean guy is a fraud. you would be the one pointing out all the facts flying in the face of unificationism

another question to you. if this sun moon guy is god/jesus. why doesnt he also perform a miracle or two? curious how he never regrows an amputees limb or something of that nature.... im sure you will have a smart excuse/justification for that too.

I keep answering your questions and you keep asking them over again. It's in the doctrine. I don't follow De Jesús because he claims to be the anti-Christ as well as the messiah and has 666 tattoo'd on his arm, he also states that there is no sin. You must understand, I believe in the Bible, fundamentally, but I don't think that it is entirely literal.

Next point. He doesn't live in these "million dollar mansions", the members do. I've been to almost all of these on the east and west coasts of the United States, and a few in South Korea as well. He doesn't even frequently stay in his own house for crying out loud. He spends most of his time in hotels, while traveling the world to continue speaking. He's so old that the last time I saw him speak his nose started bleeding on stage, but he just wiped it off and kept talking.

Scientology is more absurd than my religion because it is based on scientific claims devoid of any scientific evidence. It was quite literally started by a famous science fiction author and has a doctrine that is similar to some of his stories.

Jesus never grew back an amputees limb, and many would argue that miracles have occurred around him, but why bother mentioning that, you will just call it BS anyways.

If you are going to keep commenting, read this point at LEAST and remember it: I am a Unificationist because the doctrine is the most clear, comprehensive, and beautiful explanation of the Bible and the relationship between the physical and spiritual realms I have ever read. The most critical point of any religion in existence is the doctrine, if you can't even manage to touch that in your argument, I see no reason to further accept your blind criticism.
 

Spirited

Bring about world peace
He was rejected and suffered at his first coming, he will rule and reign at his Second Coming.

Right, the Kingdom of God is within all who believe in Jesus. The Kingdom of Heaven (and the Kingdom of God as well) will be at his Second Coming. They are not one in the same, yet.

That's fairly accurate. I do not believe this nor is it Biblical. The Second Advent does not dawn with another 'birth of Christ', but the Bible says he will come with his saints and defeat the Antichrist and he will set up his Millennial Reign. Looks like this man want us to believe he is Jesus, eh? That's a false teacher in my book.

The book of Luke was, of course, written after the time of Jesus. Why would it give prophesies of the past? And, if the kingdom of God will leave no signs to be observed, why do you believe that the description of the Second Advent in Revelations is literal?



"Right, the Kingdom of God is within all who believe in Jesus"

"Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."-Luke 17:21
*This means that the kingdom of God will be brought not by some magnificent coming down of Christ on the clouds, but rather that it is already within us to be realized.

"In Jesus' day, those who believed in and followed him had already partaken of the kingdom of Heaven in their hearts. Likewise, at Christ's Second Advent, because he will be born on the earth, the Kingdom of Heaven will be realized first in the hearts of those who believe in him and follow him. When these individuals increase in number to form societies and nations, the Kingdom of Heaven within will gradually be manifested in the world as an outward, visible reality. Accordingly, Jesus meant that the promised Kingdom of Heaven will not be realized in an instant, as it would if Christ were to return on the clouds."
-Divine Principle, Second Advent 2.2 pg 388


Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. -Matt 7:21
*If it were true that Christ would come in an incredible manner, and to go to the Kingdom of Heaven one only need follow him and believe in him, why would he have spoken these cautionary words unto his followers?

Whoever seeks to gain his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will preserve it. -Luke 17:33
Would anyone have to risk his life to follow the Lord if he comes on the clouds with the sounds of angels' trumpets? Because Jesus returns through a physical birth, he will appear to be a heretic to Christians who expect him to come in a miraculous way. Hence, those who follow him must be ready to face even death. The verse means that if the people believe in and follow him at the risk of their lives, they will live. If on the other hand, swayed by worldly circumstances, they turn against him and retreat from him to save their own skins, death will befall them.-
Divine Principle, Second Advent 2.2 pg 389
*I know that you have stated that this text is not the bible, but do you not agree that there is truth in what is being said?

And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it, Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things [which belong] unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes. For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation. And he went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold therein, and them that bought; Saying unto them, It is written, My house is the house of prayer: but ye have made it a den of thieves. -Luke 19:41-44
*This once again illustrates that Jesus was predicting that his own followers, the elect, would not recognize him upon his return.

 
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Spirited

Bring about world peace
All of this next passage is from the book of Luke 21:7 through 21:28

And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign [will there be] when these things shall come to pass? And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am [Christ]; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

*But as Christ has clearly explained, earlier in Luke, that does not mean that the coming of the messiah will be observable and obvious.

But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end [is] not by and by. Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
*This passage is clearly describing the current age that we are in. Reverend Moon came to the West soon after the Korean war. This was at the height of communism and the fear of all out nuclear war. There have been incredible numbers of natural disasters, coupled with the spread of HIV throughout the populations of the world.

But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute [you], delivering [you] up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
*Once again, the rise of Communism and Atheism persecuting God's people and bringing our values before the courts of "kings and rulers".

And it shall turn to you for a testimony. Settle [it] therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
*Here is where I believe the Divine Principle is the answer. The Bible cannot combat the assault of science and Atheism by itself. The Divine Principle can and does. I do not mean to say that the Bible is wrong, rather that it's arguments are in a historical context that can no longer withstand the demands of our age. The Divine Principle builds upon the Bible, gives it the strength to stand up and not be brought down by any argument I have ever faced.

And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and [some] of you shall they cause to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake. But there shall not an hair of your head perish. In your patience possess ye your souls.

*Unification members have been brutally persecuted and in many cases, sent to de-programmers (might want to look that one up if you arn't familier) even by their own parents. Parents who were so worried that their Christianity might be tainted, that they paid people to torture the "moonie brainwashing" out of them. The most recent case of this was with a Japanese man who came out of a de-programming camp last year after fifteen years of imprisonment.

And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

*Israel became a nation again on May 14 1948 which fulfills the first part of a prophecy if you refer to Ezekiel 36:19-38. The second part of the prophecy, which I posted above, is being fulfilled at this very moment. Israel and Palestine appear to be on the brink of all-out war. This may not bode well for the Jewish people.

And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. -Luke 21:7-28

*This is the most important part, for it illustrates my earlier point. The reference to "coming on the clouds" cannot be literal. If this reference were to literally be referring to a physical phenomena, why had all of the earlier passages of Luke warned that Christ would not return in a spectacular fashion? I know due to inconsistencies in the use of symbolism, and the teller of the story the Bible often contradicts itself, but I havn't observed this within the same book even once. If I were to accept that Christ would return in this astonishing manner, I would also be forced to accept that God had allowed Luke to fail in writing this passage. Since neither of these can reasonably be inferred, the coming of clouds must then represent the atmosphere with which Christ will return. This source, by Barnabas Tiburtius, is a great example http://www.livingspark.net/pdf/CLOUD-A%20BIBLICAL%20SYMBOL%20OF%20DIVINE%20PRESENCE.pdf

I would not be so passionate if I did not have excellent reason to believe that Reverend Moon is the second coming of Christ.

*Edit* I am going to a Unificationist workshop this weekend and will thus be unable to post again for a handful of days. I hope that we can continue this discussion later!

-God Bless
 
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javajo

Well-Known Member
That's way too long of posts to begin to even try to answer this late. I think you are very wrong, but I respect your beliefs. I hope you enjoy your workshop and that you get plenty of food and rest as well. Goodnight.
 

Spirited

Bring about world peace
Hey, I'm back. I had a wonderful enriching experience :D Thanks for wishing me well.

I'm eager to see your thoughts on what I have posted, are you able to contribute again?
 

javajo

Well-Known Member
It's getting a bit late for me. I think you posted way too much to discuss. I do think Jesus will come again physically to this earth at the end of the Tribulation as it is told in Revelation 19. I do not believe he messed up the first time around nor that he must be born into the world again. But that he is alive and will return with tens of thousands of his saints. In the end of it all:

8And being found in fashion as a man, he (Jesus) humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him (Jesus), and given him a name which is above every name:
10That at the name of Jesus (not Moon) every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ (not Moon) is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2
 

Spirited

Bring about world peace
It's getting a bit late for me. I think you posted way too much to discuss. I do think Jesus will come again physically to this earth at the end of the Tribulation as it is told in Revelation 19. I do not believe he messed up the first time around nor that he must be born into the world again. But that he is alive and will return with tens of thousands of his saints. In the end of it all:

8And being found in fashion as a man, he (Jesus) humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him (Jesus), and given him a name which is above every name:
10That at the name of Jesus (not Moon) every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ (not Moon) is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2

Are you saying that God named Christ? Where in the Bible does it mention the name of Christ prophetically or otherwise that they may know his name before his coming? The people surrounding Jesus during his age did not know that their saviors name would be Jesus (Emanuel), if they had, wouldn't they have received him more graciously?

Do you believe revelations literally? Also, why did God create the Earth if he planned on literally removing every single good human being from it simultaneously and prematurely to their death? This is contained within Revelations as "the Rapture". Also, if God were to remove the good people from the Earth, but not Satan, does that not mean Satan would now have dominion over the Earth? Does this contradict the three blessings of Genesis. If God created Lucifer and Lucifer betrayed God, eventually to inherit the Earth, does that not make God a failure? The answer to all of this must be no, if you are to believe in the God of the Bible. How then, is it possible that God would abandon the Earth, which he has called "good".

Unification theology does not assert that Christ "messed up". They assert that his people failed him to a degree that rendered him unable to complete his mission of restoring God's true lineage. There is language in the Bible that must not be ignored, if one is to understand it fully. Why is Christ referred to as "bridegroom" only until he realizes he must walk the path of the cross? If Jesus came to die, why was this next passage written?

-"The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.” -Matthew 26:24

"But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children." -Luke 23:28

Why would Jesus condemn the Jewish people with such words if it was his mission to die for their sins? Did God predetermine that the Jews would murder Christ and be damned for it? Is this all part of the providential plan of our creator? And, lastly, if the chosen people of God were condemned to eternal pain and suffering for murdering Christ -though it is asserted as being a prerequisite of salvation- why do the Christian people not believe that they will also be sacrificed, if that is the role that a chosen people is to play.

The reason that they don't believe this is because, based on Biblical evidence, it is clearly not the case that the chosen people are to be sacrificed. Why then, do they believe that it was predetermined that the Jewish chosen people were to be sacrificed? If you had been alive in the time of Christ, would you have recognized him? If you believed him to be the Messiah, would you have participated in crucifying him? This is a serious and relevant question that one must ask oneself before being able to understand the Second Advent.

Lastly, there are still massive numbers of Jews in the world today that do not believe Christ was the first coming, based on the description of what his coming would look like. As it must be remembered, that they were the original recipients of the scripture and prophecies that predicted his coming, is it not possible that the Christians -who consider themselves to be the chosen people of the next Advent- might also encounter a similar issue with understanding texts of archaic and unclear linguistic origin? Remember, even at the time of the coming of Christ, many of the prophecies predicting the First Advent were quite old.

You do not have to try hard to see the similarities between Reverend Moon and Christ. Both horribly abused by the chosen people of their age. Both born into absolute poverty. Both kept alive at certain points be their disciples. Both spreading messages of peace and love, rather than war and power. Both adamantly challenging the status quo. The followers of both were/are horribly persecuted and even murdered in many cases. Both betrayed by one of their closest followers and original disciples (Judas and Jeong Hwan Kwak 곽정환).

I think in order to really elevate the dialogue, it would be necessary to dispute the Divine Principle, in whole or in part, as being true. If anyone can read this book, find a point within that they disagree with, and refute it effectively, I will concede and give up trying to express the truth I see in my faith on this thread. As the translations for most of his speeches are not done as carefully (many on the fly as the speeches are given), I would like to focus primarily on the Principle, as it's translation is as perfect as it is possible to do between two languages that are so vastly different.
 

javajo

Well-Known Member
I think you need to read and study the Bible a LOT. Again, way too much for me to respond to, and it is error and nonsense. BTW, its the Book of Revelation, not Revelations, and the Rapture is not actually described in that book. Again, put down the Divine Principles and pick up a Bible and study it thoroughly.
 

Spirited

Bring about world peace
I think you need to read and study the Bible a LOT. Again, way too much for me to respond to, and it is error and nonsense. BTW, its the Book of Revelation, not Revelations, and the Rapture is not actually described in that book. Again, put down the Divine Principles and pick up a Bible and study it thoroughly.

I have. The rapture is in reference to the Resurrection in Revelation (see Rev 20:4-6), I didn't presume that it was therein named. I have read and studied the Bible a lot. I have spoken neither error nor nonsense, many theologians before Rev. Moon have suggested some of the things I am saying as well. The book of "Revelation" describes various Revelations and is named after that as such.

I see no reason to discount a single claim of the Divine Principle, because the Biblical evidence is absolutely apparent. No full expression of truth has or ever will prohibit the studying of other systems. To do so would be to undermine the value of the supposed truth, the truth has no need to feel jealous, for if it is true than it should be obviously so. Only Communism and Totalitarianism have to mask their lies with information control and thought control. Do not put the Bible in a situation from which it is disallowed to study other faiths or new truths. This is precisely what prevented the Jews from recognizing Christ and causing humanity to wait in pain for his otherwise unnecessary return. Why didn't the Bible predict that he must come twice before he had come once? Because it was not so. He must and has come again to restore what was lost, and it is the responsibility of those who have the Bible to recognize their savior when he comes calling to them. Do not lose yourself to blind, unwilling disbelief.

I urge you, read at least the introduction of the Divine Principle. If you are honestly not even remotely interested after this point, I will comment no further. If you do not wish to respond to me, simply read the introduction of the book, that's really all I ask.
 

dmcantre

New Member
"No full expression of truth has or ever will prohibit the studying of other systems. To do so would be to undermine the value of the supposed truth, the truth has no need to feel jealous, for if it is true than it should be obviously so. Only Communism and Totalitarianism have to mask their lies with information control and thought control. Do not put the Bible in a situation from which it is disallowed to study other faiths or new truths. This is precisely what prevented the Jews from recognizing Christ and causing humanity to wait in pain for his otherwise unnecessary return."- Spirited

This is an excellent point. Just because you believe in one faith system doesn't mean you have to exclude all other systems of faith from your scope of reference. Truth is Truth. And whether some like to believe it or not, God is still working today..and through various religions (not just in Christianity). A person who was really after the Truth wouldn't try to fit the world and everything in it into their box of "what is true", but would instead compare their box of truths with the next man's and see what they can glean from it. Arriving at Truth isn't about staying comfortably where you are. Religion can make you feel safe; but that shouldn't be the goal. It's about questioning what you think you know, learning where other* people are coming from, and THEN questioning some more.
 
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javajo

Well-Known Member
The rapture is in reference to the Resurrection in Revelation (see Rev 20:4-6)
Nope, try again.

Why didn't the Bible predict that he must come twice before he had come once? Because it was not so.
Actually, it did. His first coming was to die to pay for the sins of the world. His 2nd Coming will be to judge and rule. This is why he stopped short of, "and the day of vengeance of our God", when he read Isaiah 61:1-2a and told them, "This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears". Throughout the Old Testament, it foretells both his suffering for our sins at his first coming, and his rule and reign over the earth at his second.
 

Spirited

Bring about world peace
Nope, try again.

Actually, it did. His first coming was to die to pay for the sins of the world. His 2nd Coming will be to judge and rule. This is why he stopped short of, "and the day of vengeance of our God", when he read Isaiah 61:1-2a and told them, "This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears". Throughout the Old Testament, it foretells both his suffering for our sins at his first coming, and his rule and reign over the earth at his second.

It tells of his suffering for our sins, not of his murder. Likewise, it tells of his ruling, not of his second coming. As I said, Jesus is referred to as the "bridegroom" before it becomes apparent that he must go the way of the cross. He was still able to achieve the spiritual foundation within the terms of which part of the prophecy of Isaiah was fulfilled.

Why do you think Christ says "partake of my flesh and of my blood"? That phrase still holds the same meaning today, if someone is "your flesh and blood" they are of your lineage. Why do you think that we must do this symbolically? Because Christ had no descendents. He was able to establish the spiritual foundation for the Second Advent and his spiritual lineage, which is what communion represents. It is the taking of Christ into your being, to become his spiritual son. Christ's original mission was to establish both spiritual and physical salvation. If he had done so, he would not have had to come again.
 

javajo

Well-Known Member
It tells of his suffering for our sins, not of his murder.
From Isaiah 53 it is clear that it tells of his death/murder:

"He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter,...for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken...he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many,"

Likewise, it tells of his ruling, not of his second coming.
He did not rule at his first coming, he died for our sins. He will rule and reign at his second coming, meanwhile waiting, "until his enemies become his footstool. This is why he stopped short of saying that (his first coming) was "the day of vengeance of our God". After this day of vengeance, it goes on to talk about what it will be like during his Millennial Reign when he will "comfort those who mourn, give them beauty for ashes, joy for mourning", etc.
Christ's original mission was to establish both spiritual and physical salvation. If he had done so, he would not have had to come again.
No, Christ died for our sins so all who believe him are saved both spiritually and physically for we are born again or made alive spiritually the moment we first believe, and he now dwells in us and will raise us up alive physically at the resurrection (or change us at the Rapture). He accomplished both then. He is coming again in power to conquer his enemies and to rule and reign.
 

Spirited

Bring about world peace
From Isaiah 53 it is clear that it tells of his death/murder:

"He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter,...for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken...he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many,"

There are many dual prophecies in the Bible. This is apparent in Isaiah as well as other places. I will post more on this tomorrow if you care to read about it.

He did not rule at his first coming, he died for our sins. He will rule and reign at his second coming, meanwhile waiting, "until his enemies become his footstool. This is why he stopped short of saying that (his first coming) was "the day of vengeance of our God". After this day of vengeance, it goes on to talk about what it will be like during his Millennial Reign when he will "comfort those who mourn, give them beauty for ashes, joy for mourning", etc.

He didn't rule because he died. You said that the Old Testament stated he would rule at his second coming, I simply stated that isn't true. No second coming is told of in the prophecy of him ruling.

No, Christ died for our sins so all who believe him are saved both spiritually and physically for we are born again or made alive spiritually the moment we first believe, and he now dwells in us and will raise us up alive physically at the resurrection (or change us at the Rapture). He accomplished both then. He is coming again in power to conquer his enemies and to rule and reign.

I'm not sure that the Christ I believe in is a conqueror, what happened to beating swords into plowshares? The Bible, by your interpretation, doesn't actually separate the need for physical and spiritual salvation, as the assumption that Jesus had a perfect mission omits the necessity of that.

Perhaps we should go backwards a little-bit. Why do you think Christ came originally?
 

javajo

Well-Known Member
There are many dual prophecies in the Bible. This is apparent in Isaiah as well as other places. I will post more on this tomorrow if you care to read about it.
What does that have to do with Isaiah 53? I was showing that the OT prophesied he would be murdered, there are 27 prophecies fulfilled surrounding his death.

He didn't rule because he died. You said that the Old Testament stated he would rule at his second coming, I simply stated that isn't true. No second coming is told of in the prophecy of him ruling.
The Bible spells out quite clearly that Jesus would come again and goes into much detail about it. Jesus promised many time he would COME AGAIN. He describes in detail what will happen and tells us to be ready. The OT has prophesies of both his first and his second coming.

I'm not sure that the Christ I believe in is a conqueror, what happened to beating swords into plowshares?
He is indeed a conqueror. He will defeat the Beast, the False Prophet and Satan and all who follow him when he returns, then the swords will be beat into plowshares. What do you think trampling the grapes of wrath is all about?
The Bible, by your interpretation, doesn't actually separate the need for physical and spiritual salvation, as the assumption that Jesus had a perfect mission omits the necessity of that.
Again you say Jesus did not fulfill his mission, which is a lie of Satan. Jesus said, "It is finished", and he sat down at the right hand of God, it is called, "the finished work of Christ on the cross." He has done everything needed for us to be reconciled to God. When we trust him that he paid the penalty (death) for all our sins we are forgiven, given his righteousness in place of our own 'filthy rags' righteousness, and are born again spiritually and Christ dwells in our physical bodies so, "if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." Romans 8:11

Perhaps we should go backwards a little-bit. Why do you think Christ came originally?
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 1 Cor. 15:1, 3-4
 

Spirited

Bring about world peace
What does that have to do with Isaiah 53? I was showing that the OT prophesied he would be murdered, there are 27 prophecies fulfilled surrounding his death.

The Bible spells out quite clearly that Jesus would come again and goes into much detail about it. Jesus promised many time he would COME AGAIN. He describes in detail what will happen and tells us to be ready. The OT has prophesies of both his first and his second coming.

He is indeed a conqueror. He will defeat the Beast, the False Prophet and Satan and all who follow him when he returns, then the swords will be beat into plowshares. What do you think trampling the grapes of wrath is all about? Again you say Jesus did not fulfill his mission, which is a lie of Satan. Jesus said, "It is finished", and he sat down at the right hand of God, it is called, "the finished work of Christ on the cross." He has done everything needed for us to be reconciled to God. When we trust him that he paid the penalty (death) for all our sins we are forgiven, given his righteousness in place of our own 'filthy rags' righteousness, and are born again spiritually and Christ dwells in our physical bodies so, "if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." Romans 8:11

Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 1 Cor. 15:1, 3-4

Rather then continuing this battle, in which neither of us will ever concede, I will post a new thread in comparative religion. In this thread, I will post the introduction to the Divine Principle in it's entirety (about 11 pages?). I would request that you read it, but of course, I will understand if you refuse. I don't think that it is possible for me to change your views at all, so rather than try, I just ask that you look at the DP (Divine Principle). If you find it to be truly blasphemous, just hit "back" and move on.

I will post a link here after I make the new thread, though it will probably be tomorrow as I don't have enough time right now. Thank you for remaining civil even in disagreement.
 

javajo

Well-Known Member
Rather then continuing this battle, in which neither of us will ever concede, I will post a new thread in comparative religion. In this thread, I will post the introduction to the Divine Principle in it's entirety (about 11 pages?). I would request that you read it, but of course, I will understand if you refuse. I don't think that it is possible for me to change your views at all, so rather than try, I just ask that you look at the DP (Divine Principle). If you find it to be truly blasphemous, just hit "back" and move on.

I will post a link here after I make the new thread, though it will probably be tomorrow as I don't have enough time right now. Thank you for remaining civil even in disagreement.
Ok. Let me just say what I believe. I believe the Bible says Jesus Christ is the King of King and Lord of Lords to whom every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord, not Rev. Moon. The Bible is God's Word, not the Divine Principle. The Bible equips us to be "complete and thoroughly furnished for every good work". It tells us how everything will end and that Jesus is coming back to rule and reign, not Rev. Moon. Jesus died for our sins, was buried, and rose from the grave and is alive forevermore, not Rev. Moon. I believe we are to trust in Jesus, not Rev. Moon. My advice is to read and study the Bible for a while, apart from the DP.
 
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