I'm against abortion myself, but....

[rheff78]

no, these are not my labels. This is what society deemed.

 

[Magic Man]

no, these are not my labels. This is what society deemed.

If by "society", you mean "rheff", then yes.

 

[McBell]

no, these are not my labels. This is what society deemed.

Actually, the words used are the same words used by society, but once you started adding conditioning modifiers to them, you made them your labels.

 

[DallasApple]

No, I'm making sense. WHy is it that REAL Pro-Lifers understand me and pro-choicers seem to not understand. Maybe because they are ashamed of how they think? I don't know, that's MHO.

I want you to be slung into every situation possible as a man or as a woman..And see your "choice" be "pro life"...untill then you are nothign but a mouthed opinion..

How can you "understand" something in every way unless you have been there under every variable..You understand your vision...Thats MHO>

Blessings

Dallas

 

[DallasApple]

The term "pro-life" is a misnomer, it should be just anti-abortion, as it casts the other side by default as "anti-life".

Bravo!!...I am not "anti life..",,,Even though Im a person that had "abortions"..If I was "anti life" ..I would have never had children at all..I would have as well killed myself..

Love

DAllas

 

[rheff78]

I want you to be slung into every situation possible as a man or as a woman..And see your "choice" be "pro life"...untill then you are nothign but a mouthed opinion..

How can you "understand" something in every way unless you have been there under every variable..You understand your vision...Thats MHO>

Blessings

Dallas

Hmmm, well we have been in the situation and there was no "choice". We had the baby. Does this make you a terrible person, of course not. But I jsut wanted to let you know that I do not speak from inexperience. We are pro-life, meaning we do not ever accept abortions in any way shape or form at any time. For whatever reason.

 

[Draka]

Hmmm, well we have been in the situation and there was no "choice". We had the baby. Does this make you a terrible person, of course not. But I jsut wanted to let you know that I do not speak from inexperience. We are pro-life, meaning we do not ever accept abortions in any way shape or form at any time. For whatever reason.

Really? That go for tubal pregnancies as well? It's fertilized, it's a life,...should your wife be forced to proceed with a pregnancy that not only has no hope of survival, but will most likely kill her?

If your wife was pregnant and the doctor said that there was something horribly wrong with the pregnancy and that if she continued to try to carry it it would most likely kill her and the baby, while if she terminated it there would be a great chance that she would be able to carry another completely healthy pregnancy on down the line. Does she carry and probably kill herself and the baby? Or terminate and perhaps try again later to have another child?

There are exceptions to every rule Rheff. If you don't see that, you are living your sheltered life with blinders on.

 

[Scott1]

Really? That go for tubal pregnancies as well? It's fertilized, it's a life,...should your wife be forced to proceed with a pregnancy that not only has no hope of survival, but will most likely kill her?

Dear God in Heaven....... I agree with her.:shout

Most reputable moral theologians, as discussed below, accept full or partial salpingectomy (removal of the fallopian tube), as a morally acceptable medical intervention in the case of a tubal pregnancy.
CUF.org :: Catholics United for the Faith

First, while the Church opposes all direct abortions, it does not condemn procedures which result, indirectly, in the loss of the unborn child as a "secondary effect." For example, if a mother is suffering an ectopic pregnancy (a baby is developing in her fallopian tube, not the womb), a doctor may remove the fallopian tube as therapeutic treatment to prevent the mother’s death. The infant will not survive long after this, but the intention of the procedure and its action is to preserve the mother’s life. It is not a direct abortion.
Catholic Update ©1998 - Abortion: What the Church Teaches by Helen Alvaré

Seems there are exceptions to the "rule".... thanks Draka for getting me to think... it hurts... but thanks.

 

[Alceste]

Really? That go for tubal pregnancies as well? It's fertilized, it's a life,...should your wife be forced to proceed with a pregnancy that not only has no hope of survival, but will most likely kill her?

If your wife was pregnant and the doctor said that there was something horribly wrong with the pregnancy and that if she continued to try to carry it it would most likely kill her and the baby, while if she terminated it there would be a great chance that she would be able to carry another completely healthy pregnancy on down the line. Does she carry and probably kill herself and the baby? Or terminate and perhaps try again later to have another child?

There are exceptions to every rule Rheff. If you don't see that, you are living your sheltered life with blinders on.

Rheff has already said repeatedly that he would allow his wife to die if her pregnancy was life-threatening. "Under any circumstances" would include the above, where the death of both the mother and baby are pretty much guaranteed.

Not sure his wife would be so sure of her absolute stance in this case though...

 

[Smoke]

I am starting to get upset with this line of thought. Too many people say they are pro life when they really are not. They always use the line, "I am personally against it, but I can't tell others what to do" or something to that effect. If you support other womens right to choose to have an abortion or not, YOU'RE PRO CHOICE, regardless of how you presonally feel. Retorts?

Of course, a person who supports a woman's right to choose is pro-choice. That's a tautology.

Pro life means you don't want abortion at any time, date or place, regardless of the consequences. You cannot be personal something and socially for it. It, in this case, does not work that way.

Of course you can. A pro-choice person may be personally horrified by abortion and believe it to be morally reprehensible, just as one may be horrified by Catholicism and believe it to be intellectually and morally indefensible to be a Catholic while still supporting the legal right of another person to choose whether to be a Catholic or not.

The definition of Pro Life is different from what some people think it is. Pro Life means you protect the sanctity of life, no matter what the instance was that the person became pregnant.

However, life doesn't occur only in the womb. If your respect for the sanctity of life only applies to fetal life, you aren't really pro-life; you're only pro-fetal life.

To be truly pro-life, you would have to respect the sanctity of all life, and never take, or approve the taking of, a life under any circumstances. Under no circumstances would you agree to any instance of capital punishment. Under no circumstances would you agree to going to war or to paying taxes to support a war. Under no circumstances would you respond with lethal force to an armed intruder in your home. If you respect the sanctity of all life with with the same rigor that you require in the case of fetal life, then you can call yourself pro-life. If your convictions extend only to fetal life, then you aren't really pro-life, but only pro-fetal life.

But, you know the church's stance on taht right? If both of them are in peril and only one life can be saved, you save the baby.

That is in fact your church's stance. As the church has no civil authority in the United States, the church's stance is utterly irrelevant to the question of what the law should be.

Pro-Life means you don't believe a woman has the right to choose, no matter the circumstances.

We are pro-life, meaning we do not ever accept abortions in any way shape or form at any time. For whatever reason.

In that case, if an eleven-year-old girl is gang-raped by her father and brothers and is found to be four months pregnant with an anencephalic fetus implanted in her fallopian tube, a pro-life person must maintain that it is impermissible for her pregnancy to be surgically terminated.

You have successfully defined "pro-life" in such a way that only an imbecile can be pro-life.

 

[rheff78]

Dear dear dear. Let's see. If there is no chance for the baby to live then there's really no choice, is there? Either way, we're not letting the woman choose to abort the fetus, it has no chance of survival.

 

[Magic Man]

Dear dear dear. Let's see. If there is no chance for the baby to live then there's really no choice, is there? Either way, we're not letting the woman choose to abort the fetus, it has no chance of survival.

OK, say the fetus would survive if it went to term, but the mother would surely die. Then what?

 

[rheff78]

OK, say the fetus would survive if it went to term, but the mother would surely die. Then what?

Ok, here we go. If the baby would survive to term I would save the baby.

 

[Magic Man]

Ok, here we go. If the baby would survive to term I would save the baby.

OK, so just to be absolutely clear: If the baby would survive, you would choose to kill your wife to save the baby. Is that right?

 

[McBell]

Ok, here we go. If the baby would survive to term I would save the baby.

And then what?
Give it up for adoption?

So the mother has absolutely no say in whether she lives or dies?
How is this any different than abortion?

Other than it is the fetus determining the life or death of the mother instead of the mother determining the life or death of the fetus?
What makes the fetus so damn special?

 

[rheff78]

No, he asked me. And my wife and I have agreed on that. It was not just my decision. of course she was involved.

 

[rheff78]

And then what?
Give it up for adoption?

So the mother has absolutely no say in whether she lives or dies?
How is this any different than abortion?

Other than it is the fetus determining the life or death of the mother instead of the mother determining the life or death of the fetus?
What makes the fetus so damn special?

Adoption-depends on the situation the people are in, there are certainly enough people out there willing to adopt

the fetus has no say in whether they live or die. it doesn't have a choice. That's what makes it special.

 

[McBell]

Adoption-depends on the situation the people are in, there are certainly enough people out there willing to adopt

the fetus has no say in whether they live or die. it doesn't have a choice. That's what makes it special.

So in your scenario (Mother or fetus) where you choose the fetus, then the Mother has no choice.
How is it that the Mother is not special then?

Seeing as you declared that the not having a choice is what makes the fetus special, if you remove said choice from the mother then by default the mother is the special one, right?

 

[rheff78]

As I already said, if the situation came up between me and my wife, WE have talked about it. She was involved in the situation.

 

[McBell]

As I already said, if the situation came up between me and my wife, WE have talked about it. She was involved in the situation.

So your declaration is only about you and your wife?
In that case your argument falls through because you yourself said that your wife agrees with your position.
In order to agree SHE HAD TO MAKE A CHOICE.