I'm Leaving

[Revoltingest]

Funny, because laying out my premises in a logical sequence as I was taught in my philosophy classes is exactly what I did and was called emotional.

I saw no rigorous logical argument.
Note that I too studied logic (in engineering).
It's a useful tool to deal with systems.

Pissed me off.

That I understand.

I think the idea of logic is being misunderstood. It's not being used in the Ancient Greek sense. Those arguments can be logically made but still wrong. This is what I mean by logic.

That's not clear to me.
But it might be useful for me to state that some
premises, & consequently logical conclusions,
can be wrong.....or "not even wrong".
Our values aren't ever "true". They're just our
personal values, whether widely shared or not.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I think people are still allowed to make jokes.

And on a serious note, yes. I have views that diverge from practice because whilst ideals work in theory, the practical reality of living in a western country like the UK is if I held off sex before marriage, which I did til I was 26, it resulted in no men wanting to know me. See, I can compromise. I didn't like doing it and it does give me some fear, but it's sadly the only way to get a partner. Perhaps in the US there are more die hards but over here I'd be a virgin forever. And yes, I have repented.

But this is a good illustration of the problem. Conservatives forced to do things otherwise not being able to participate in society. I mean it just reinforced my point. I could find no one since becoming 16, UK age of consent, who would wait til marriage. Tried for a decade.

That does kind of suck. I hope you're feeling better about it now.

 

[Rival]

How did you deduce that?

Zoomer men specifically are becoming more conservative. They are trending towards traditional forms of religion. The biggest one is their uptake in the Traditional Latin Mass. They are more likely than Millennials to want children, have traditional family structures, and be venture capitalists. I consume a lot of right wing media and these young men are all over it. What Boomers removed, Zoomers want back.

The women not so much.

It is said that it's the biggest sex divide in any generation over values and it accounts partially for why they are having less sex. Zoomer men and women don't seem to have the same goals and values.

 

[Rival]

I saw no rigorous logical argument.
Note that I too studied logic (in engineering).
It's a useful tool to deal with systems.

That I understand.

That's not clear to me.
But it might be useful for me to state that some
premises, & consequently logical conclusions,
can be wrong.....or "not even wrong".
Our values aren't ever "true". They're just our
personal values, whether widely shared or not.

I'm more talking about

Socrates is Greek
Greek is a language
Therefore Socrates is a language

It is logical in the classical sense but still wrong.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I am so, so ****ing sick of this place ... It's full of people who are too old to understand how much things have changed ... It's too Woke ... Too many Atheists who are really here to pick on religious people ... I am tired of having to defend views that were considered mainstream until yesterday.

If that's how you experience dissent, then a mixed, open forum with liberals and atheists isn't the place for you, and you are probably making the right decision.

I am tired of having to defend views that were considered mainstream until yesterday.

Then don't. Have them only with like-minded people or nobody at all.

It's interesting that you point at older people and imply that they are too rigid and stuck in their boomer past " to understand how much things have changed", but then say that your views are no longer mainstream.

I'm sure that I'm one of those people you object to with my antitheism. Sorry about that, but theocratic incursion into government and a host of bigotries are issues I feel strongly about.

The following are words that are the kind you object to. Don't read them if you aren't up to more blowback of the nature you object to.

Spoiler

This is just a bad time for people like you. Secularism and atheism have been in ascension since the Enlightenment, but we're at a tipping point now, and you're old world in your values and beliefs.

Not that long ago, nobody dared criticize the church. The clergy were considered good people and the religions teachers of good values. Atheists were widely held to be immoral and as recently as my youth, were excluded from teaching, coaching, adopting, and serving on juries. Women and minorities were also to be seen but not heard and to submit to a white, Christian, patriarchal culture, and gays were closeted.

That's all changed. The media no longer depict the church in a flattering way thanks to so much scandal, bigotry, and hypocrisy. Atheism is socially acceptable now. Atheists have a platform and are promoting a different worldview which wants to return religion to its rightful place - limited to the lives of those who want it.

The church is not used to being challenged like that and doesn't know quite what to make of it except to point to scriptures and say that this was foretold and blame it on the devil rather than themselves for being so off-putting and irrelevant to so many.

And you don't like it, either. You just want to be able to express your religious views without criticism or dissent, which is why this is the wrong place for you. That's what we do here in the marketplace of ideas. We debate them.

So, this is probably a good move for you.

Best of luck in your future.

I'm more talking about

Socrates is Greek
Greek is a language
Therefore Socrates is a language

It is logical in the classical sense but still wrong.

That's not logical. It's an equivocation fallacy and thus a logical failure. You're using the word Greek in two different ways. It like saying that banks are a safe place to keep money, rivers have banks, therefore rivers are a safe place to keep money.

 

[Father Heathen]

Zoomer men specifically are becoming more conservative. They are trending towards traditional forms of religion. The biggest one is their uptake in the Traditional Latin Mass. They are more likely than Millennials to want children, have traditional family structures, and be venture capitalists. I consume a lot of right wing media and these young men are all over it.

The women not so much.

I think it's the biggest sex divide in any generation over values and it accounts partially for why they are having less sex. Zoomer men and women don't seem to have the same goals and values.

I mean how/where did you get this impression? I haven't noticed it, other than within certain social media circles, but I don't think they serve as an accurate sample of the population at large. Is this specifically a UK thing (if so, it's ironic considering that Europe is widely viewed to be more left/liberal/progressive than the U.S.)? What do you suppose was the influence? Usually religion/tradition is handed down to the kids via their elders.

 

[Father Heathen]

@Rival Btw, God wants you to stay as a test of faith and resolve, and to be his ambassador.

 

[Rival]

If that's how you experience dissent, then a mixed, open forum with liberals and atheists isn't the place for you, and you are probably making the right decision.

Then don't. Have them only with like-minded people or nobody at all.

It's interesting that you point at older people and imply that they are too rigid and stuck in their boomer past " to understand how much things have changed", but then say that your views are no longer mainstream.

I'm sure that I'm one of those people you object to with my antitheism. Sorry about that, but theocratic incursion into government and a host of bigotries are issues I feel strongly about.

The following are words that are the kind you object to. Don't read them if you aren't up to more blowback of the nature you object to.

Spoiler

This is just a bad time for people like you. Secularism and atheism have been in ascension since the Enlightenment, but we're at a tipping point now, and you're old world in your values and beliefs.

Not that long ago, nobody dared criticize the church. The clergy were considered good people and the religions teachers of good values. Atheists were widely held to be immoral and as recently as my youth, were excluded from teaching, coaching, adopting, and serving on juries. Women and minorities were also to be seen but not heard and to submit to a white, Christian, patriarchal culture, and gays were closeted.

That's all changed. The media no longer depict the church in a flattering way thanks to so much scandal, bigotry, and hypocrisy. Atheism is socially acceptable now. Atheists have a platform and are promoting a different worldview which wants to return religion to its rightful place - limited to the lives of those who want it.

The church is not used to being challenged like that and doesn't know quite what to make of it except to point to scriptures and say that this was foretold and blame it on the devil rather than themselves for being so off-putting and irrelevant to so many.

And you don't like it, either. You just want to be able to express your religious views without criticism or dissent, which is why this is the wrong place for you. That's what we do here in the marketplace of ideas. We debate them.

So, this is probably a good move for you.

Best of luck in your future.


That's not logical. It's an equivocation fallacy and thus a logical failure. You're using the word Greek in two different ways. It like saying that banks are a safe place to keep money, rivers have banks, therefore rivers are a safe place to keep money.

Another one I won't miss.

Your comments against Trump supporters are heinous.

 

[Revoltingest]

I'm more talking about

Socrates is Greek
Greek is a language
Therefore Socrates is a language

It is logical in the classical sense but still wrong.

That's not logical reasoning.
It has only the superficial appearance of logic.
An error is using "Greek" as though it's the
same definition in each usage, but the context
shows different definitions.

 

[Father Heathen]

I'm more talking about

Socrates is Greek
Greek is a language
Therefore Socrates is a language

It is logical in the classical sense but still wrong.

But it's defined as a equivocation fallacy.

 

[Rival]

I mean how/where did you get this impression? I haven't noticed it, other than within certain social media circles, but I don't think they serve as an accurate sample of the population at large. Is this specifically a UK thing (if so, it's ironic considering that Europe is widely viewed to be more left/liberal/progressive than the U.S.)? What do you suppose was the influence? Usually religion/tradition is handed down to the kids via their elders.

I would pull the data but I find it too hard on my phone. It seems to be an Anglophone trend as a whole. It seems to have come in the wake of the death of the New Atheist movement and a resurgence of religion.

Another factor is that they never knew life pre 2008 crash and so are fiscally more inclined towards lower taxes and so on in a bid to keep as much of their money as possible. They've discovered that 9-5 doesn't pay and want to essentially be entrepreneurs and business capitalists in a very free market.

 

[Revoltingest]

Your comments against Trump supporters are heinous.

That post offers some insight into the difficulty.
You take offense at severe criticism of Trump,
& describe it as "heinous" But your support of
Trump could also be called "heinous". Yet that
kind of exchange is what's vexing you here.
To dish it out, one should be prepared for
responses in kind.

Supporting Trump will inspire fervent objection.
He's a vengeful, treasonous, imperious sexual
predator who is losing his mental faculties.
We're concerned that a great many will suffer
if he wins, & that democracy is threatened.
So when you wade into turbulent waters, be
prepared for turbulence. Don't blame the water.

 

[Kenny]

Our values aren't ever "true".

Is that a “true” statement?

 

[Kenny]

Supporting Trump will inspire fervent objection.
He's a vengeful, treasonous, imperious sexual
predator who is losing his mental faculties.
When you wade into turbulent waters, be
prepared for turbulence. Don't blame the water.

His wife might have a different viewpoint and she knows him a lot better than you.

This is a “storm making” statement whose waters are create by you.

 

[Rival]

*Mod Post: Post moved to Site Feedback*​

That's not logical reasoning.
It has only the superficial appearance of logic.
An error is using "Greek" as though it's the
same definition in each usage, but the context
shows different definitions.

But it's defined as a equivocation fallacy.

Thats the point I was making.

It's logical in form, it has the form of logic, whilst being illogical.

It's philosophy 101 how to spot flaws in a logically yet wrong wrongly made argument.

I think we've been taught different meaning of logic.

But the point is made.

I was making step by step arguments in logical sequence and I was called emotional. I'm not sure how I could have been less emotional! I think a lot of people on here just want hard fact via articles or journals and that's too high a bar most times.

 

[Kathryn]

My daughter is 41. She and her husband both attend the Latin Mass, which I find confusing but whatever, it's not about me. Around here, the Latin Mass is mostly made up of young families and young people.

 

[Rival]

That post offers some insight into the difficulty.
You take offense at severe criticism of Trump,
& describe it as "heinous" But your support of
Trump could also be called "heinous". Yet that
kind of exchange is what's vexing you here.
To dish it out, one should be prepared for
responses in kind.

Supporting Trump will inspire fervent objection.
He's a vengeful, treasonous, imperious sexual
predator who is losing his mental faculties.
We're concerned that a great many will suffer
if he wins, & that democracy is threatened.
So when you wade into turbulent waters, be
prepared for turbulence. Don't blame the water.

It wasn't criticism of Trump. It was the poster's stated wish that his supporters feel pain and suffering and the poster wouldn't feel any empathy for them.

I found it genuinely psychopathic.

 

[Revoltingest]

Is that a “true” statement?

It's my opinion.
But it might be true.

Are your beliefs are true?

 

[Father Heathen]

I would pull the data bit I find it too hard on my phone. It seems to be an Anglophone trend as a whole. It seems to have come in the wake of the death of the New Atheist movement and a resurgence of religion.

Another factor is that they never knew life pre 2008 crash and so are fiscally more inclined towards lower taxes and so on in a bid to keep as much of their money as possible. They've discovered that 9-5 doesn't pay and want to essentially be entrepreneurs and business capitalists in a very free market.

How did religious fundamentalism become conjoined with fiscal conservatism, especially considering that the teachings and examples of Christ are antithetical to cutthroat capitalism?

 

[Revoltingest]

His wife might have a different viewpoint and she knows him a lot better than you.

It's hard to argue with "might".
And that she "knows him a lot better".
Your weak claims suggest that she approves of
treason, vengeance, rape, & mental decline.
Are you claiming this as evidence that your
support for Trump is cromulent?

I'm amazed that "good Christians" look at
Trump, & think to themselves....
"There's the savior I want to lead the country."