I'm now a vegetarian!!!

[Hema]

It's not a matter of speaking out. We are talking about the social and political ramifications of an absurd idea, for which no one here has presented a single argument for how we could allow cannibalism without creating widespread social insecurity. You guys can keep dodging the issue, but it doesn't change the fact that the cannibalism argument has no place in this discussion. It remains irrelevant.

I never said that we should allow cannibalism. I'm trying to prove that a human's insecurity is valid but an animal's security isn't.

Animals eat other animals that can't speak out or secure rights with, and thus the statement that we are all at the mercy of the food chain. Again, this point can be dodged and evaded all day, but it doesn't change the fact. All this is, is a pretentious comparison between meat-eaters and cannibals. It's insulting, offensive, and beneath all of your intellects and class.

True that. That's why I said that if a shark eats someone who is swimming in the ocean - it is also natural. However, we will feel sorry for the swimmer. If someone catches the shark and eats it, not everyone will feel sorry for the shark. I meant absolutely no offense and I'm sorry if you interpreted it that way.

It is not productive, because it doesn't make people think about the issue at hand. You guys like thinking about it, because you like degrading meat-eaters by comparing them to cannibals. Which is, again, insulting and beneath your intellect and class.

I am not comparing meat-eaters to cannibals. I'm comparing human feelings to animal feelings. Just like humans want to live and don't want to be slaughtered and eaten, animals want to live also.

It is natural and I'm not saying sharks are bereft of morality because they eat people in the oceans. I'm not saying that vegetarians are immoral. I'm not trying to degrade people with a differing opinion. It is the kind, compassionate, loving vegetarians in this thread who are insulting people that disagree with them, comparing them to cannibals, questioning the morality of meat-eaters, and expressing anger at those that disagree with them.

I'm not angry. Like I said, we are not comparing you to cannibals, I’m trying to show that human pain is respected and animal pain is not. If we are all at the mercy of the food chain, then why if we live in a gated community, we don’t allow our vicious pet dogs to roam freely. Because we don’t want anyone to be harmed or killed – and rightfully so. However, just like humans want to live, animals also want to live.

No, its not the difference of opinion that makes anyone in this thread self-righteous. It's the self-praise of your own morality and the criticism of the morality of those who simply have a different dietary choice that gives the appearance of self-righteousness. I am not telling you that you are wrong for being a vegetarian. I'm not questioning your morality. I'm not comparing you to cannibals. And no one is trying to make vegetarians feel badly about being vegetarians. So there is nothing self-righteous about my position. I fully respect your lifestyle choices. It's the vegetarians in this thread who, on many occasions, have shown no respect for people that disagree with them. I know you don't want to be disrespectful, but it seems like this is just one of those topics that is leading otherwise respectful individuals to lose their composure.

Again, I’m truly sorry if you feel disrespected but I did mention in one of my previous posts that you are entitled to your opinion and whilst I respect it, I do not agree with it.

 

[Hema]

I also don't like the ever so slightly "I'm better than you cuz I don't eat meat and you're an animal murderer" attitude. It's off-putting and offensive. The animals are there to be eaten by us. Why do people think that some species of animal are considerably more agreeable to human palette than others? A part of the food chain we are gonna eat animals. The little gazelle doesn't like to be caught by the lion, but that's what it's there for. I haven't done any study on it, but I'm fairly certain the gazelles know they are a food source, hence the running when they get chased because they know what's up.

If we kill it right it'll be okay. If I were raising animals on a farm, there's no way I would treat it badly. Allah has given them rights, and He has given me a right to eat them. What Allah didn't do was give me quarter to abuse that. I would give the animals proper nutrition, ability to roam, no drugs, no beatings, and I would make their living conditions good for them. It is amazing the amount of submission and cooperation you get from an animal at slaughter when thy have been treated well. No force is really needed at all when you haven't been a murderous tyrant over them during their time with you. I don't think they necessarily look forward to being killed, but I think they understand the process and submit to it.

My Dear, these are your religious beliefs and I fully respect them. Please bear in mind, that some of us are of different religious beliefs and will have different opinions on the matter.

 

[Flappycat]

And for the record, I never said meat eaters were immoral. I just said killing animals for meat is not right.

And what about the vegetables you slaughter and torture every day, hmm? They've got feelings too, ya know!

 

[Hema]

And what about the vegetables you slaughter and torture every day, hmm? They've got feelings too, ya know!

They feel on a subtle level. They do not suffer to the extent that animals suffer. We are just trying to minimize the pain as much as possible.

 

[Radio Frequency X]

Ok, here is a rare moment for Radio:

Can we all agree on the following points?

1. Everyone has a right to their own personal dietary discretions.
2. Eating meat does not make the meat-eater immoral.
3. The slaughtering of animals in such a way as to cause unnecessary harm is cruel and unnecessary, its wrong and such practices should end, even if it causes the price of meat to increase.
4. The avoidance of meat does not make the vegetarian somehow more moral than the meat-eater.
5. Animals are not more valuable from an a universal perspective than other living things, such as plants.
6. Decreasing suffering should be the goal of vegetarians and meat-eaters alike, regardless of their dietary discretions?

 

[Flappycat]

They feel on a subtle level. They do not suffer to the extent that animals suffer. We are just trying to minimize the pain as much as possible.

I was joking. Vegetables don't even have nerves. And, once again, most humane methods of slaughter incur less pain than a visit to the dentist. I'm more concerned, really, with how these animals are raised. I don't agree with keeping them in pens. They should live with some sense of liberty and freedom of movement. I would gladly pay a higher price to put in place a requirement for animals being raised for food to have a certain amount of roaming space for at least about a third of the year. Pastureland could be used on a rotational basis.

 

[UnTheist]

In nature there is killing all the time. But just to survive, mostly. If you agree that we are animals as well, you are agreeing that we equate into the food chain just like every other plant and animal.

I don't like gluttony, but to say we can't eat meat at all simply because their feelings exist does not defend your position. Pain and suffering exists in the animal kingdom regardless of whether we kill them or not. They will die somehow.

I do agree that we should reduce the animal's pain and suffering as much as we can when we kill it, but that's about all I agree with. Animals are no more special than us, and we are no more special than them. That doesn't mean we won't kill each other.

 

[Mister_T]

And what about the vegetables you slaughter and torture every day, hmm? They've got feelings too, ya know!

I wasn't aware vegetables were conscious and had a fully functional nervous system.

 

[Flappycat]

In nature there is killing all the time. But just to survive, mostly. If you agree that we are animals as well, you are agreeing that we equate into the food chain just like every other plant and animal.

Yup, which is why any intelligent person takes precautious before going out into the untamed wilderness, particularly if there may be grizzlies or pumas in the area. It's perfectly fair and equal for one of these animals to make chow out of an unprepared human, and there's no sense in hating them for it. It's understandable for the humans to want to hunt them down in interest of preventing a recurrance of such an incident, but there's no point whatsoever in hating a beast for being a beast.

I don't like gluttony, but to say we can't eat meat at all simply because their feelings exist does not defend your position. Pain and suffering exists in the animal kingdom regardless of whether we kill them or not. They will die somehow.

Not to mention that wild animals have to contend with innumerable infections, diseases, injuries and so forth.

I do agree that we should reduce the animal's pain and suffering as much as we can when we kill it, but that's about all I agree with.

Well, yes. It's just plain perverse to cause more discomfort to an animal than necessary.

Animals are no more special than us, and we are no more special than them. That doesn't mean we won't kill each other.

Because they are yummy.

 

[Flappycat]

I wasn't aware vegetables were conscious and had a fully functional nervous system.

Read my response to Hema.

 

[Mister_T]

I was joking. Vegetables don't even have nerves. And, once again, most humane methods of slaughter incur less pain than a visit to the dentist. I'm more concerned, really, with how these animals are raised. I don't agree with keeping them in pens. They should live with some sense of liberty and freedom of movement. I would gladly pay a higher price to put in place a requirement for animals being raised for food to have a certain amount of roaming space for at least about a third of the year. Pastureland could be used on a rotational basis.

I don't see how that could be proven unless you were the animal being slaughtered, which is impossible.

 

[Flappycat]

I don't see how that could be proven unless you were the animal being slaughtered, which is impossible.

This can be determined indirectly.

 

[Mister_T]

This can be determined indirectly.

Care to elaborate?

 

[UnTheist]

I don't see how that could be proven unless you were the animal being slaughtered, which is impossible.

I'm not positive, but as far as I know, they chop their heads off pretty quickly. They can't possibly feel much pain from that, and for not very long at all.

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

My Dear, these are your religious beliefs and I fully respect them. Please bear in mind, that some of us are of different religious beliefs and will have different opinions on the matter.

I am well aware that these are my religious beliefs. I never said anyone should make the meat zabiha halal, but I was pointing to the method of raising and slaughter which any interested person can do regardless of religous affiliation. The method of slaughter used by muslims can be used by anyone minus the other religious rituals involved.

 

[Flappycat]

Care to elaborate?

I'm just against the belief that it is necessary to directly experience this to have an academic understanding of what the animal is going through. One needs only to be equipped with an understanding of the animal's nervous system.

 

[Hema]

I am well aware that these are my religious beliefs. I never said anyone should make the meat zabiha halal, but I was pointing to the method of raising and slaughter which any interested person can do regardless of religous affiliation. The method of slaughter used by muslims can be used by anyone minus the other religious rituals involved.

My point was that everyone does not share those beliefs because of different religious practices. The method of slaughter cannot be used by anyone because there are some religions which do not condone animal slaughter for food eg. Hinduism, Jainism etc.

 

[Hema]

I'm not positive, but as far as I know, they chop their heads off pretty quickly. They can't possibly feel much pain from that, and for not very long at all.

That sounds very painful and not one of us will be willing to verify if it's true of not - from first hand experience.

 

[Hema]

I was joking. Vegetables don't even have nerves. And, once again, most humane methods of slaughter incur less pain than a visit to the dentist. I'm more concerned, really, with how these animals are raised. I don't agree with keeping them in pens. They should live with some sense of liberty and freedom of movement. I would gladly pay a higher price to put in place a requirement for animals being raised for food to have a certain amount of roaming space for at least about a third of the year. Pastureland could be used on a rotational basis.

Oh a joke! Can we have some more jokes in here! It's so tense!

We're cool man! Whilst I myself will not eat meat under those conditions, it shows some consideration on your part. However, the animal will still suffer when it is slaughtered.

 

[Hema]

Me will catch up with you people either later or tomorrow. Me is working late! Don't kill each other - unless you're cannibals of course! :tribal: What? It's a joke! I tell Brian (Comet) that I'm a vegetarian cannibal! Ask him!