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In Defense of Marriage

McBell

Unbound
Yes! Especially if it taught children that anal sex was ok & denied them of the right of being raised by mothers and fathers.
Really?
And how many children are raised by aunts or uncles or grandparents?
Should that be banned as well?

Seems to me you are all about your dogma, to hell with the children...


We have to pick our battles.
Personally, my priority is
1) Caring for my family
2) Sticking up for the many suffering (esp. children) - Almost 1Billion starving & millions of children painfully killed through abortion every year.
3) Standing up for TRUTH, especially when they affect children.
Are you being purposely dishonest or are you so ignorant of the facts that you honestly think that children get aborted?

You claim to stand up for TRUTH but your posts thus far indicate you have no idea what the word means.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
My brother was adopted and so was my grandson. My family financially supports various adoption services - it is a passion of ours.

I cannot imagine allowing a child to languish in an orphanage or a foster home if there was a loving, stable, and safe home - with a single parent, two gay parents, or two heterosexual parents - that child could be placed in.

Sheeze! Apparently some people are not very familiar with foster care or orphanages.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
MARRIAGE is legal mostly for the sake of CHILDREN, to ensure the care of them.

Children are the future of society, not a couple of adults.

If that's really your position, then why do you want to disadvantage the children of same-sex-parented families by denying them the rights and protections of marriage?

The only effect that banning same-sex marriage has on children is harm.
 

McBell

Unbound
MARRIAGE is legal mostly for the sake of CHILDREN, to ensure the care of them.

Children are the future of society, not a couple of adults.
I do not know which is is sadder...
that you actually said it, or that you might actually believe it is true.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
What they don't seem to understand, and I am speaking of those who feel they must legislate their religious beliefs upon those who do not hold those beliefs,

I think you've said it here, they feel they have an obligation to, a right to legislate their religious beliefs.

is that same sex marriage does not effect them personally at all.

If they use this argument at all, I suspect it is a strawman argument they hope will stick with some of the religious folks.

The arguments I've come across are...

Gay marriage leads to a increase in single parent-hood.

The institution of marriage has already been weakened resulting in a high divorce rate and, again, increased number of single parents. Allowing gay marriage will only further weaken it.

No real evidence for this but they'll usually site some study they claim supports it.

This is rhetoric and I suspect will work with people are looking for an excuse to justify their position.

There are other arguments being made against Gay marriage not specific to how your marriage will be destroyed.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
I never did understand why a bunch of puny mortal humans have to do the "fighting" for an all powerful deity...

I'd suspect feeling they have an obligation to enforce the morality of the Bible.
May not be your cup of tea.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
I think you've said it here, they feel they have an obligation to, a right to legislate their religious beliefs.

which is odd considering a part of their religious belief says this...

luke 6:30

Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
There are so many parents who want to adopt - there are waiting lists.
Foster care children also are cared for - & God bless those who have been through hell & back (both children & parents)!

Well, many homosexuals want to have kids as well, they are parents who want to adopt. Also, homosexuals have been through quite hell, which people against gay marriage put them through. So, there seems to be some flaws in your logic.

What?
You think it's "disgusting" & that I'm "selfish" to be a parent?
You don't know me - you don't know if I'm loving or not - why assume when you don't have a clue?
I'd say it is a strange moral compass to enlist logical fallacies like adhominem attacks to "debate."

I am not sure you are understanding what I said. I gave an opinion. Yes, I personally believe that is is disturbing that some wish to leave already born children to loveless lives while they put out carbon copies of themselves. Those children are already in this horrible world, they deserve love and they had no choice involved in coming here. Parents make the choice to bring a child into this world, and it is a choice I cannot make. This is a terrible place that we live in, I won't force a child to live in it.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The way I see it, if one is interested in a thoroughly rational argument, opponents of gay marriage must do one of the following:

A) Enforce a specific religion's morality, despite any lack of basis in fact, over a mixed population. And then, if it's a country like America that has a constitutional separation of church and state, somehow argue around that. Probability of constructing a thoroughly rational argument against gay marriage that meets this criteria: very low.

B) Demonstrate rather conclusively that children of homosexual relationships are strongly disadvantaged. Then prove causation rather than mere correlation. And then compare the results to, say, children of smokers, children of the obese, children of single-parent heterosexuals, children of the economically underprivileged, children of parents of any given religious affiliation, children of parents of any given political position, children of parents of any given health status, children of parents of any given legal status, and compare the results group by group. And then somehow argue for an arbitrary disadvantage threshold under which children shouldn't be allowed, and then find a way to actually enforce it. Probability of constructing a thoroughly rational argument against gay marriage that meets this criteria: very low. And if it turns out that homosexuality is not correlated with an inability to raise children well (and as far as I know, that's the case- statistically speaking it hasn't been a problem), then the argument is thoroughly screwed.

Therefore, it's preferable not to interfere with the civil rights and wishes of others.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
which is odd considering a part of their religious belief says this...

luke 6:30

Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.

I'm going to get beaten down on this but I've concluded that Christianity has little to do with what Jesus taught. What Christianity is, I find, is to be more based on the letters of Paul.

just from experience when asking Christians to support their doctrine, the majority of times they'll end up referring to something from Paul.

Homosexuality... Paul right?
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
In 1967, Mildred and Richard Perry Loving were arrested and convicted in Virginia for violating Virginia's Racial Integrity Act of 1924. They were actualy arrested in their bedroom, and the marriage certificate on the wall, issued in Washington DC, was used as evidence against them. Mildred was black. Richard was white.
The Virginia trial court judge, in his issuing of the conviction, stated;

"Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix."

Thanks to the ACLU, this case was eventually brought before the Supreme Court.
In their ruling that such laws were unconstitutional, the Court stated;

Marriage is one of the "basic civil rights of man," fundamental to our very existence and survival.... To deny this fundamental freedom on so unsupportable a basis as the racial classifications embodied in these statutes, classifications so directly subversive of the principle of equality at the heart of the Fourteenth Amendment, is surely to deprive all the State's citizens of liberty without due process of law. The Fourteenth Amendment requires that the freedom of choice to marry not be restricted by invidious racial discrimination. Under our Constitution, the freedom to marry, or not marry, a person of another race resides with the individual and cannot be infringed by the State.


In a statement in 2007, Mildred equated her struggle with bigotry and the current debate on same sex marriage.

"Surrounded as I am now by wonderful children and grandchildren, not a day goes by that I don't think of Richard and our love, our right to marry, and how much it meant to me to have that freedom to marry the person precious to me, even if others thought he was the "wrong kind of person" for me to marry. I believe all Americans, no matter their race, no matter their sex, no matter their sexual orientation, should have that same freedom to marry. Government has no business imposing some people's religious beliefs over others. Especially if it denies people's civil rights. I am still not a political person, but I am proud that Richard's and my name is on a court case that can help reinforce the love, the commitment, the fairness, and the family that so many people, black or white, young or old, gay or straight seek in life. I support the freedom to marry for all. That's what Loving, and loving, are all about".
LOVING v. VIRGINIA







Inspiring.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
B) Demonstrate rather conclusively that children of homosexual relationships are strongly disadvantaged. Then prove causation rather than mere correlation. And then compare the results to, say, children of smokers, children of the obese, children of single-parent heterosexuals, children of the economically underprivileged, children of parents of any given religious affiliation, children of parents of any given political position, children of parents of any given health status, children of parents of any given legal status, and compare the results group by group. And then somehow argue for an arbitrary disadvantage threshold under which children shouldn't be allowed, and then find a way to actually enforce it. Probability of constructing a thoroughly rational argument against gay marriage that meets this criteria: very low. And if it turns out that homosexuality is not correlated with an inability to raise children well (and as far as I know, that's the case- statistically speaking it hasn't been a problem), then the argument is thoroughly screwed.

Therefore, it's preferable not to interfere with the civil rights and wishes of others.

But that's a separate issue itself. There's no legal requirement in the US for people to be married before they have kids.

For all that to be relevant, you'd have two more hoops to jump through:

- demonstrate that denying the right to marriage for these couples will reduce the rate at which they have kids.

- demonstrate that the benefit of this reduction in the rate they have kids will offset the harm associated with denying marriage benefits to the kids of same-sex couples who choose to have kids anyway.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
But that's a separate issue itself. There's no legal requirement in the US for people to be married before they have kids.

For all that to be relevant, you'd have two more hoops to jump through:

- demonstrate that denying the right to marriage for these couples will reduce the rate at which they have kids.

- demonstrate that the benefit of this reduction in the rate they have kids will offset the harm associated with denying marriage benefits to the kids of same-sex couples who choose to have kids anyway.
Yup, you'd have to prohibit the actual procreation rather than the marriage. All of which is hard to enforce, even if one had a desire or justification to enforce it, which they do not.
 

Gomeza

Member
Wow, a lot of these so called arguments are so off topic and irrelevant. Adoption is usually handled by an agency determining the suitability of the adoptive parents, how does that in any way influence who has the right to marry?

. . . and as if a ban on same sex marriage has any impact whatsoever on current sexual practices (that one cracked me up) between consenting adults.

The reality is as I stated in an earlier post: the legalization of same sex marriage has virtually no effect on the rest of society. This has been the result in all of the countries where it is now legal.

The only real effect it has is finally silencing the often ugly and inane public discourse on the subject.
 

Karl R

Active Member
Do you realize there are health risks involved, not just statisically (STDs & AIDS) but also anal fissures, bacterial infection, anal cancer & colon rupture? If 2 people understand these real risks & want to do it anyway - fine - but when kids get involved (as in legalizing gay marriage) I have a problem with it. Why would you want children to be adopted by couples practicing unhealthy practices when children imitate their parents?
Following the same line of reasoning, people who consume alcohol or smoke tobacco products should be banned from marrying and raising kids. The negative health consequences of both of those activities are extremely well documented. Furthermore, it's well documented that children mimic these behaviors.

Oh ... and what about the health risks associated with eating trans-fats, distracted driving, insufficient exercise?

Why are the health risks associated with homosexuality the only health risks that matter?

Children have a RIGHT to be raised by the 2 opposite sexes that created them.
I know a lot of children being raised by single mothers (or fathers). Are you intending to force them to get married against their will?

A child has the right to be raised by one single woman, but not the right to be raised by two women?

How does banning gay marriage remotely preserve this right? A single woman has the legal right to shack up with a man for a night in order to get pregnant. She's not even legally obligated to inform him that he's the father.

What's your proposed solution? Mandatory paternity tests and mandatory marriages for the parents?

Gay marriage denies them either a mother or father,
So does divorce with one parent being granted sole custody. I'm not hearing any push from conservatives to ban this.

And if a parent dies young ... Are you intending to ban death? Are you going to ban widows and widowers from raising their own children?

devaluing both parents, saying mothers or fathers are not really important.
That's an illogical conclusion to draw. I don't have children. Does that imply that children aren't really important?

when studies & common sense show that children need BOTH a mother & father...
I'll start with common sense.

Countless children have grown up with only one parent, and the vast majority of these children became happy, healthy, productive members of society. Therefore, common sense shows that you don't need both a mother and a father. Some children have even grown up as wards of the state, with neither mother nor father, and still managed to be happy, healthy, productive members of society.

As for your studies:
  • Dr. A. Dean Byrd was LDS and was a proponent of conversion therapy (attempting to convert homosexuals into heterosexuals)
  • Glenn T. Stanton is a director at Focus on the Family, a prominent anti-homosexual organization; his education focused on philosophy and religion
  • Bill Muehlenberg has degrees in philosopy and theology and carries out a ministry in pro-faith and pro-family activism
Is that your idea of unbiased sources?

And one scholarly work ... well ... the 57 word abstract to a scholarly work which suggests that there is some benefit to having two parents (provided both of them are actively involved in child-rearing), but doesn't provide any degree of magnitude for comparison, nor does it provide the degree of certainty associated with the results.

It certainly doesn't imply that having a mother and father is necessary. (Just a little exaggeration on your part, eh?)

For a moment, let's pretend that the study conclusively shows that children do much better when their mother and father are actively involved in child-rearing.

Does that mean you advocate banning marriages where one parent is too busy to be involved in the child-rearing (like soldiers who get deployed overseas...)?

Normalizing & even encouraging children to explore homosexuality obviously causes more to experiment with homosexuality.
And?

I'm straight. If kids want to explore heterosexuality, fine. If they want to explore homosexuality, fine.

Also, others' rights have been infringed upon in favor of supporting gay rights.
*In April 2008, an Albuquerque photographer was fined over $6,000 for refusing to be hired to photograph a lesbian couple's commitment ceremony.
*In May, 2008, a black administrator was fired from the U of Toledo, Ohio, for writing an editorial objecting to the comparison of black discrimination to same-sex marriage.
*On November 19, 2008, eHarmony, a Christian-based matching service was forced by New Jersey's Division on Civil Rights to provide website matching services for homosexuals.
You're complaining because someone infringed upon their right to discriminate?

What law gives me the legal right to discriminate? Can it be used to legally discriminate against religious fundamentalists?
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
MARRIAGE is legal mostly for the sake of CHILDREN, to ensure the care of them....

B.S.!! Marriage is for the purpose of legally and/or socially recognizing an interpersonal intimate relationship. The establishment of protection of next of kin is only part of the picture.

If it were for the purpose of caring for children, then infertile couples, couples that choose not to have children, and elderly couples would have a more difficult time getting a marriage license by the state.

If opponents are so hell bent on redefining marriage rights so it's a "privilege" to acquire one, and not a civil right, be forewarned that someday as a group minority YOUR right to have state sanctioned marriage protection might be denied because the majority feels you're a silent threat to society's status quo.

[/soapbox rant]
 

Gomeza

Member
The way I see it, if one is interested in a thoroughly rational argument, opponents of gay marriage must do one of the following:

A) Enforce a specific religion's morality, despite any lack of basis in fact, over a mixed population. And then, if it's a country like America that has a constitutional separation of church and state, somehow argue around that. Probability of constructing a thoroughly rational argument against gay marriage that meets this criteria: very low.

B) Demonstrate rather conclusively that children of homosexual relationships are strongly disadvantaged. Then prove causation rather than mere correlation. And then compare the results to, say, children of smokers, children of the obese, children of single-parent heterosexuals, children of the economically underprivileged, children of parents of any given religious affiliation, children of parents of any given political position, children of parents of any given health status, children of parents of any given legal status, and compare the results group by group. And then somehow argue for an arbitrary disadvantage threshold under which children shouldn't be allowed, and then find a way to actually enforce it. Probability of constructing a thoroughly rational argument against gay marriage that meets this criteria: very low. And if it turns out that homosexuality is not correlated with an inability to raise children well (and as far as I know, that's the case- statistically speaking it hasn't been a problem), then the argument is thoroughly screwed.

Therefore, it's preferable not to interfere with the civil rights and wishes of others.

It is a bit refreshing to read such a well crafted argument. In their attempts to fortify a baseless position, opponents to same sex marriage continually introduce irrelevant qualifying criteria that would invalidate the marriages of a great number of those who currently are married amongst their own social demographic (no laughing now).

In all of the hyperbole the fact that those who will be seeking same sex marriage constitute a very small segment of society seems to be lost. Again using the experiences of other countries where same sex marriage has been legalized: gays make up about 4% of the populace, a much smaller percentage of that group will seek marriage. It will not change existing social traditions of the much larger majority by one iota.
 

beerisit

Active Member
I think that all widows and widowers should be forced to remarry to a person assigned by the government so that any children have the benefit of a mother and father. I think that at least one month from burial/cremation should be sufficient before co-habitation would be enforced.
 
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