'In God We Trust' and 'Under God'

[Kenny]

And yet, it offends me, as I don't share the "God" that it references. How about "In Gods We Trust" instead?

That's alright... we are adults and we don't need to get in an uproar every time something offends you. After all, if every time something affended us we had to remove it, there wouldn't be anything left.

 

[Kenny]

No it wasn't, it was created in opposition to them.

You won't find anything about representative government or personal liberty or freedoms like speech and religion anywhere in Scripture.
Tom

That isn't true. Actually God is related into three parts, executive, administrative and judicial.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

That's alright... we are adults and we don't need to get in an uproar every time something offends you. After all, if every time something affended us we had to remove it, there wouldn't be anything left.

I see you aren't willing to try my wording, though....

That's okay, so long as YOU aren't offended by having to acknowledge a God or Gods you don't believe in, that makes it all right for everyone else, I guess...

 

[Revoltingest]

I see you aren't willing to try my wording, though....

That's okay, so long as YOU aren't offended by having to acknowledge a God or Gods you don't believe in, that makes it all right for everyone else, I guess...

I've proposed changing it to "In Allah We Trust".
Then we'll see if the God crowd understands the
difficulty of swearing an oath to someone else's god.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

I've proposed changing it to "In Allah We Trust".
Then we'll see if the God crowd understands the
difficulty of swearing an oath to someone else's god.

Oh, now you're just being SILLY!

 

[columbus]

That isn't true. Actually God is related into three parts, executive, administrative and judicial.

That's a modern secular version, nothing to do with traditional Christianity. Scripture is about submitting to authority as given by God. In other words, the Divine Right of Kings.
Nothing to do with the principles this country was founded upon.
Tom

 

[Buddha Dharma]

I've proposed changing it to "In Allah We Trust".
Then we'll see if the God crowd understands the
difficulty of swearing an oath to someone else's god.

Nah, that's still too close to the Christian deity, and in fact- is the Christian deity. Let's change it to In Satan We Trust

 

[Revoltingest]

Nah, that's still too close to the Christian deity, and in fact- is the Christian deity. Let's change it to In Satan We Trust

I suspect that the fundies who'd object to a change would see no difference.

 

[Buddha Dharma]

I suspect that the fundies who'd object to a change would see no difference.

Yeah, but the fundies don't care about Arabic and stuff.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

That isn't true. Actually God is related into three parts, executive, administrative and judicial.

And so are my gods, and the gods of lots of other non-Christians. Only they don't get mentioned, but YOURS does...yeah, that seems fair!

 

[Father Heathen]

Love, "In God we Trust".

A turd squeezed out during the McCarthy era.

 

[Father Heathen]

The US was created under Judeo-Christian principles. It grew under those principles. When those principles are discarded, the ideology as well as the nation that grew from it, will decline into it's origin. The world takes it's place within the US, bringing the cultures of the world with them. And the same divisions of the world, will be contained in the US as well. The concept of the fore fathers has seen it's peak, and now we see it's demise at hand.

Just my view.

Is America a Christian Nation?

The U.S. Constitution is a secular document. It begins, "We the people," and contains no mention of "God" or "Christianity." Its only references to religion are exclusionary, such as, "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust" (Art. VI), and "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" (First Amendment). The presidential oath of office, the only oath detailed in the Constitution, does not contain the phrase "so help me God" or any requirement to swear on a bible (Art. II, Sec. 1). If we are a Christian nation, why doesn't our Constitution say so?

In 1797, America made a treaty with Tripoli, declaring that "the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." This reassurance to Islam was written during Washington's presidency, and approved by the Senate under John Adams.

What about the Declaration of Independence?

We are not governed by the Declaration. Its purpose was to "dissolve the political bands," not to set up a religious nation. Its authority was based on the idea that "governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed," which is contrary to the biblical concept of rule by divine authority. It deals with laws, taxation, representation, war, immigration, and so on, never discussing religion at all.

The references to "Nature's God," "Creator," and "Divine Providence" in the Declaration do not endorse Christianity. Thomas Jefferson, its author, was a Deist, opposed to orthodox Christianity and the supernatural.

What about the Pilgrims and Puritans?

The first colony of English-speaking Europeans was Jamestown, settled in 1609 for trade, not religious freedom. Fewer than half of the 102 Mayflower passengers in 1620 were "Pilgrims" seeking religious freedom. The secular United States of America was formed more than a century and a half later. If tradition requires us to return to the views of a few early settlers, why not adopt the polytheistic and natural beliefs of the Native Americans, the true founders of the continent at least 12,000 years earlier?

Most of the religious colonial governments excluded and persecuted those of the "wrong" faith. The framers of our Constitution in 1787 wanted no part of religious intolerance and bloodshed, wisely establishing the first government in history to separate church and state.

Do the words "separation of church and state" appear in the Constitution?

The phrase, "a wall of separation between church and state," was coined by President Thomas Jefferson in a carefully crafted letter to the Danbury Baptists in 1802, when they had asked him to explain the First Amendment. The Supreme Court, and lower courts, have used Jefferson's phrase repeatedly in major decisions upholding neutrality in matters of religion. The exact words "separation of church and state" do not appear in the Constitution; neither do "separation of powers," "interstate commerce," "right to privacy," and other phrases that have come to represent well-established constitutional principles.

What does "separation of church and state" mean?

Thomas Jefferson, explaining the phrase to the Danbury Baptists, said "the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions." Personal religious views are just that: personal. Our government has no right to promulgate religion or to interfere with private beliefs.

The Supreme Court has forged a three-part "Lemon test" (Lemon v. Kurtzman, 1971) to determine if a law is permissible under the First Amendment religion clauses: (1) It must have a secular purpose. (2) It must have a primary effect which neither advances nor inhibits religion. (3) It must avoid excessive entanglement of church and state. The separation of church and state is a precious American principle supported not only by minorities, such as Jews, Muslims, and unbelievers, but applauded by most Protestant churches that recognize that it has allowed religion to flourish in this nation.

What about majority rule?

America is one nation under a Constitution. Although the Constitution sets up a representative democracy, it specifically was amended with the Bill of Rights in 1791 to uphold individual and minority rights. On constitutional matters we do not have majority rule. For example, when the majority in certain localities voted to segregate blacks, this was declared illegal. The majority has no right to tyrannize the minority on matters such as race, gender, or religion.

Not only is it unAmerican for the government to promote religion, it is rude. Whenever a public official uses the office to advance religion, someone is offended. The wisest policy is one of neutrality.

Isn't removing religion from public places hostile to religion?

No one is deprived of worship in America. Tax-exempt churches, temples and mosques abound. The state has no say about private religious beliefs and practices, unless they endanger health or life. Our government represents all of the people, supported by dollars from a plurality of religious and non-religious taxpayers.

Some countries, such as the U.S.S.R., expressed hostility to religion. Others, such as Iran, have welded church and state. America wisely has taken the middle course—neither for nor against religion. Neutrality offends no one, and protects everyone.

The First Amendment deals with "Congress." Can't states make their own religious policies?

Under the "due process" clause of the 14th Amendment (ratified in 1868), the Bill of Rights applies to state citizens. No governor, mayor, sheriff, public school employee, or other public official may violate the human rights embodied in the Constitution. The government at all levels must respect the separation of church and state. Most state constitutions, in fact, contain language that is even stricter than the First Amendment, prohibiting the state from setting up a ministry, using tax dollars to promote religion, or interfering with freedom of conscience.

What about "One nation under God" and "In God We Trust?"

The words "under God," did not appear in the Pledge of Allegiance until 1954, when Congress, under McCarthyism, inserted them. Likewise, Congress mandated that "In God We Trust" appear on all currency only in 1955, and it was absent from paper currency prior to 1957. (It appeared on some coins earlier, as did other sundry phrases, such as "Mind Your Business.") "In God We Trust" was belatedly adopted as our national motto in 1956. The official U.S. motto, chosen by John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, and Thomas Jefferson, is E Pluribus Unum ("Of Many, One"), celebrating plurality, not theocracy.

Isn't American law based on the Ten Commandments?

Not at all! The first four Commandments are religious edicts having nothing to do with law or ethical behavior. Only three- homicide, theft, and perjury- are relevant to modern American law, and these have existed in cultures long pre-dating Moses. If Americans honored the commandment against "coveting," free enterprise would collapse! The Supreme Court has ruled that posting the Ten Commandments in public schools is unconstitutional.

Our secular laws, based on the human principle of "justice for all," provide protection against crimes, and our civil government enforces them through a secular criminal justice system.

Why be concerned about the separation of church and state?

Ignoring history, law, and fairness, fanatics are working vigorously to turn America into a Christian nation. Right wing Protestants and Catholics would impose their narrow morality on the rest of us, resisting women's rights, freedom for religious minorities and unbelievers, gay and lesbian rights, and civil rights for all. History shows us that only harm comes of uniting church and state.

America has never been a Christian nation. We are a free nation. Anne Gaylor, founder of the Freedom From Religion Foundation, points out: "There can be no religious freedom without the freedom to dissent."

 

[Father Heathen]

That's alright... we are adults and we don't need to get in an uproar every time something offends you. After all, if every time something affended us we had to remove it, there wouldn't be anything left.

Unless, of course, it's something that Christians might find offensive, then it's time to express outrage.

 

[Buddha Dharma]

Aw come on! No one's gonna make me have to pull out Adams and Jefferson? I always so enjoy doing it. Maybe even throw in some Thomas Paine for good measure!

 

[wandering peacefully]

It's funny you should bring this up. I was just pondering today what I'm going to do about my new position on the town planning board. Being in a rural and religious town, they begin all meetings with the pledge. Up until now, I've been safe in the audience because they are all back to me as they face the flag. So I always just skip the under God part. But now I'll be up at the front of the room. It may end up being the shortest term ever if they see me not saying "under god".

I was trying to come up with a fill in like "one nation for us all" with liberty, etc. Or I could just buck the system like always. I certainly am not saying one nation under god.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

I've proposed changing it to "In Allah We Trust". Then we'll see if the God crowd understands the difficulty of swearing an oath to someone else's god.

I've actually started crossing out "god" on every bill that I have and writing "THOR".

 

[Revoltingest]

I've actually started crossing out "god" on every bill that I have and writing "THOR".

I've written in "Satan".

 

[Phantasman]

False. I was waiting for that to come up though. Do you think the first amendment syncs very well with say the first commandment? To have no gods besides YHVH. The first amendment allows such.

That should be enough to start. I've got Adams, Jefferson, and the gang ready to paste- should the need arise.

I figured it was trap.

Who views the words Creator, Supreme Judge of the world, and Divine Providence in the Declaration of Independence as other than God of the Bible?

In God we trust was on money in the late 1800s. The forefathers fear of having another Church of England being the only national church, wrote the DoI with wording that gave credit to the Biblical God, but not any certain religion that had been rising with Protestant divisions. We swear on the Bible. Though I'm sure that that will fade over timne as the different worldly cultures grow within our society.

There is no doubt in my mind that the Christian church was the dominant thought process when evaluating our Republic. But as many have so successfully spun the American ideology to see and teach a different historic past, I do not fall for it. I was one who grew up saying the Lords Prayer and Pledge of Allegiance at school every morning.

Todays America is not a reflection of our past, but what others want us to see.

Man has gotten too big for their britches, and God, who was respected and loved, is now attacked on every level.

But I understand why, and merely watch, as the world moves on around me.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

And so are my gods, and the gods of lots of other non-Christians. Only they don't get mentioned, but YOURS does...yeah, that seems fair!

Oh! And I forgot the atheists! And Agnostics! People who don't believe in ANY god or gods have to put up with this crap! Sorry, atheists and agnostics! But better late than not at all...

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Who views the words Creator, Supreme Judge of the world, and Divine Providence in the Declaration of Independence as other than God of the Bible?

Deism - Wikipedia