Many people do.
Many of us do not.
In court, I've noticed no necessity to invoke God when swearing to tell the truth.
Some do.
Some don't.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
'In God We Trust' and 'Under God'
- Thread starter Buddha Dharma
- Start date
Many of us do not.
In court, I've noticed no necessity to invoke God when swearing to tell the truth.
Some do.
Some don't.
One of the main reasons that the USA grew so large is because Christian culture is historically rapacious and violent. The Christians who founded this country had no problem with slavery and genocide as a rule.
The history is very clear on this.
Tom
I wonder about the faith of Christians who need God mentioned in their country's mottos and on their government's buildings.
In contrast, I know many Christians who believe in a God whose glory does not depend on human action, and who would not be diminished in the slightest if a country didn't mention him in their motto.
When someone insists that their secular government praise their God, I generally assume either:
- they believe in a small, weak God that needs this praise, or
- they themselves need to be surrounded by praise of their God to prop up their own weak faith.
In contrast, I know many Christians who believe in a God whose glory does not depend on human action, and who would not be diminished in the slightest if a country didn't mention him in their motto.
When someone insists that their secular government praise their God, I generally assume either:
- they believe in a small, weak God that needs this praise, or
- they themselves need to be surrounded by praise of their God to prop up their own weak faith.
Last edited:
Yes, of course; so you shouldn't have any problem with changing it, should you? You'll be the first to sign a petition to Congress to drop God and replace it with Allah?
And what percentage of American Christians would NOT object to changing it to Allah?
I don't think very many.
How about "Shiva," which is not just a word for "God?" Or Odin? Or Satan, or Lucifer? They're just another word for "God," for their followers, so it shouldn't bother you to have one of them on money, and in the Pledge, and so on, should it?
You're avoiding the real issue here, which is that for non-Christians, the presence of the word God on money, in the pledge, on license plates, is offensive.
And yes, I'm sure you can find non-Christians who will say "well it doesn't bother me"...just as we can also find Christians who are bothered by it.
I think that if you were in the minority, and you were faced with having pledges and national mottoes and etc., to another deity than the one you worship, you and other Christians would be fighting tooth and nail to get that changed.
So far, all anyone has offered is evasion to the very straightforward question:
would you or would you not accept references to a non-Christian deity in the pledge, on currency, etc.?
No more evasion! No more, "Well, historically..." or "Too late, it's already in place..." or "It's just another name for God..." or whatever. Just answer the question!
In the various times I've been in court (all in Illinois), I've been asked whether I will be honest and answer questions truthfully. No mention of God. No Bible to put your hand on.
Maybe in other states, I don't know. But not in my experience here.
And look what happened.
Obama! Illinois foisted a Kenyan Muslim off on the USA. See what those people are like?
Tom
Phantasman
Well-Known Member
Perspective. I don't agree, as the proof is the freedom that many died for to release slavery, and in the end prevailed. You are confusing Christian with orthodoxy. The orthodox resorted to genocide when it was formed in 325AD, killing and forcing people like Arians and gnostics to conform or die/be exiled.
Even defiled Christianity teaches that man answers to a higher power, in which the believer questions murder, liars, cheaters, etc. Orson Wells said "if the world is this bad with religion, can we imagine what it would be like without it?". Maybe you see John Lennons view from the song "Imagine". I do not. Answering what "sin" is has done much more to curb a yet "free to do as I please" society than it's absence.
The Christian global belief is tainted by a few or groups that use the spiritual knowledge for their physical actions of greed and power.
Perspective.
ExVasterist
Ex-Member of RF (I'm a Ghost)
Well you already know my opinion of the "Pledge" above the part where I quoted you (my rant to the OP & anyone else that believes the pledge matters), but personally I'd rather it be changed to the name of God that the Federal Reserve trusts to Amun-Ra cause that is what The All-Seeing Eye represents.
Phantasman
Well-Known Member
This wasn't the "Christian" view, as many slaves became Christians. The problem stemmed from those in higher greedy power in the commerce arena. Slaves were used for labor by the elitists. Personal and business.
I am talking about Christianity as practiced in this country at the time. You can make up some religion that suits you better and then call it Christianity if you want. But then I have no way to know what you're talking about.
Nor do I care much, because it's an inconsequential cult. I am talking about the religion and culture that dominated the European people of the day. That's Christianity.
Tom
Yes it was the Christian view. Your modern secular views are fine with me, but don't tell me that those people weren't Christians.
Tom
Phantasman
Well-Known Member
Swearing on any book means nothing, IMO. Obama swore to uphold the Constitution, yet violated it many times (according to the SCOTUS).
People are going to do as they please. I put swearing on the Bible up there with water baptism. A ritual accepted by it's physical implications, rather than what's in the heart.
Jesus said:
'This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me."- Matthew
Phantasman
Well-Known Member
The wisdom of spiritual gnosis says:
If one goes down into the water and comes up without having received anything, and says "I am a Christian," he has borrowed the name at interest. But if he receives the Holy Spirit, he has the name as a gift. He who has received a gift does not have to give it back, but of him who has borrowed it at interest, payment is demanded. This is the way it happens to one when he experiences a mystery.- Gospel of Philip
Those who claimed Christianity (orthodox) see these words as heretical. Many were misled by catholic orthodoxy since it was evident in Galatians around 50 AD, and 1 John 100 AD.
6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
Those who chose to separate themselves to a different Gospel, were the orthodox catholic ideology, Giving themselves celestial power.
Galatians:
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Paul wrote of the perverted gospel message in 50AD. John saw it in action and called it antichrist decades later. Gnosis shows both Paul and John to be correct, and as Philip says above, a Christian see's and through spiritual knowledge, rejects the orthodox way, as you and many agnostic and atheists question with good cause.
Just my perspective, after 40+ years of seeking.
That's because of English history.
The baisc reasons why so many people came to the US was to be able to freely worship God. As a matter of fact, God is mentioned in every State's preamble.
So, another dodge...The fact that you won't answer a direct question speaks volumes.
I guess that we can conclude, then, that were the shoe on the other foot, so to speak, you'd be plenty offended to have to pledge allegiance to Allah, or the Buddha, or Odin, or whichever, and just "think of it as" the Christian god, or "think of it as one nation under you," when you say "Allah" or whatever.
In fact, if that were the case, you'd be all fired up to have "One nation under Odin" removed from the pledge, and "In Buddha We Trust" removed from the currency.
But of course, you can't admit that, now can you?
No... as a matter of fact, I wouldn't be fired up, I would stand for the respect of others and not say Odin. After all, I have lived in other nations and had no problem respecting them.
and.... I did answer all your questions
Thank you.No... as a matter of fact, I wouldn't be fired up, I would stand for the respect of others and not say Odin. After all, I have lived in other nations and had no problem respecting them.
and.... I did answer all your questions
You know what this nearly always meant?
They didn't like being persecuted by Christians. They oftentimes came here to be the persecutors, instead of the persecuted.
You know what else was in my state's (Indiana) Constitution? No Blacks Allowed. Black people were only allowed to cross the border on their way someplace else. Not stay, much less own property. And it wasn't until after the War of Northern Aggression that killing an "Indian" was considered a crime.
Oh yeah, those people were very Christian.
Tom
tytlyf
Not Religious
People can swear on anything or nothing. I'd imagine you'd have no problem with someone swearing in on the quran?
Buddha Dharma
Dharma Practitioner
You're kidding right now, right? Just about every legal justification for slavery on record is Christian in nature. They even justified beating their slaves based on the Bible. Lashings rather than beatings was so they wouldn't kill their slave, only make them unconscious for a day or two, as the Law of Moses allows.
I'll grant you the abolitionists were also largely Christian. That just goes to show that Christianity's guiding hand isn't an all-powerful god.
Phantasman
Well-Known Member
I know what you are talking about. I lived that Christian term for 20 years.
As much as someone swearing on a Bugs Bunny comic book. A mans word is either good or it isn't. Swearing on the Bible doesn't mean swearing to God to me. Just as swearing on the Qu'ran means swearing to Allah. Books have no power.