Infinite time and space.

[outhouse]

Then what are you talking about here

a hypothetical guess if there was another universe


we dont know has been stated and stood behind.

what exist in between possible universes? we dont know.


"can be" = we dont know, but what we do know is it is not our spacetime

 

[Meow Mix]

How does anything exist without time? It'd be completely nonexistent, it's like having an object that has no height or an object without length.

Numbers aren't real, their values are.

Values aren't really objects. I was referring how objects couldn't exist if there was no time.

All of your objections are related. Before I can explain how something could exist without time we must first dispell your notion that mathematical objects aren't "real."

First, a question: do you believe that mankind creates mathematical objects (such as numbers) or do you believe mankind discovers them?

For instance, consider the Mandelbrot fractal. As you "zoom in" on a portion of the fractal "landscape," you will find a particular and specific (and beautiful) new shape of that landscape at various "magnifications."

A person on the far side of the universe could independently start looking at the mandelbrot fractal, "zoom in" the same amount and to the same location as a person here on Earth, and find exactly the same shape. This wouldn't be surprising at all.

Isn't that just like exploring the coastline of a new country that already exists "out there" -- discovering something rather than creating it?

Now for contrast, consider something that we do create: language. It certainly would be surprising to find someone from the far side of the universe that hasn't been exposed to our culture at all who spoke fluent English. This is because we don't discover languages; we create them.

Mathematical objects are discovered, not created. What it means to be "real" is to have an existence that isn't dependent on a conscious mind creating it -- mathematical objects are real because we don't create them. We find them. Then we describe them: just like a cartographer describes a newly discovered country.

 

[PolyHedral]

They are how much objects you have

And so they are objects in themselves. As I said, they have behaviour and properties. Isn't that enough?

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Time, as we know it, is an aspect of our space-time. Space-time is an attribute of our universe.. Theoretically, there could be other universes, but they may have a different type of space-time, or, possibly, something different altogether.

Why would the inside of the universe be different than whatever is outside of the universe? It's complete nonexistence until you reach this special kind of ball right?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Why would the inside of the universe be different than whatever is outside of the universe? It's complete nonexistence until you reach this special kind of ball right?

Because the attributes of our universe are a result of the creation of it. Why would something "outside" of our universe share the same attributes?

 

[idav]

Then what are you talking about here

Time is relative which is why the term space-time came about. Time is relative to the motion and speed of objects. If time were fixed, like we thought before Einstein, then it would be much easier to deal with.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

All of your objections are related. Before I can explain how something could exist without time we must first dispell your notion that mathematical objects aren't "real."

First, a question: do you believe that mankind creates mathematical objects (such as numbers) or do you believe mankind discovers them?

They make the name of the number, the shape, etc. But discover the value.

For instance, consider the Mandelbrot fractal. As you "zoom in" on a portion of the fractal "landscape," you will find a particular and specific (and beautiful) new shape of that landscape at various "magnifications."

A person on the far side of the universe could independently start looking at the mandelbrot fractal, "zoom in" the same amount and to the same location as a person here on Earth, and find exactly the same shape. This wouldn't be surprising at all.

Isn't that just like exploring the coastline of a new country that already exists "out there" -- discovering something rather than creating it?

Indeed, and?

Now for contrast, consider something that we do create: language. It certainly would be surprising to find someone from the far side of the universe that hasn't been exposed to our culture at all who spoke fluent English. This is because we don't discover languages; we create them.

Mathematical objects are discovered, not created. What it means to be "real" is to have an existence that isn't dependent on a conscious mind creating it -- mathematical objects are real because we don't create them. We find them. Then we describe them: just like a cartographer describes a newly discovered country.

Shapes were discovered, values of numbers (not numbers themselves) were discovered, etc. That's what I meant.

 

[outhouse]

Because the attributes of our universe are a result of the creation of it. Why would something "outside" of our universe share the same attributes?

hes thinking 2 dimensional explosion for the big bang im guessing that took place in a percieved all space is the same

 

[The Sum of Awe]

And so they are objects in themselves. As I said, they have behaviour and properties. Isn't that enough?

They aren't physical objects, they are the amount of objects you have.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Because the attributes of our universe are a result of the creation of it. Why would something "outside" of our universe share the same attributes?

Unless there's some sort of "indivisible force" surrounding it, the rocks that were once together, are only expanding and breaking apart, separating, nothing is being "created" really.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Time is relative which is why the term space-time came about. Time is relative to the motion and speed of objects. If time were fixed, like we thought before Einstein, then it would be much easier to deal with.

"The only reason for time is so everything doesn't happen at once" There may be no fixed amount of time, but there isn't "no time"

 

[idav]

"The only reason for time is so everything doesn't happen at once" There may be no fixed amount of time, but there isn't "no time"

Just as was mentioned. No motion then no time. Not that I think there is a pause button.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Just as was mentioned. No motion then no time. Not that I think there is a pause button.

If it isn't all just pause, there is time. If there wasn't time, the universe couldn't even be expanding, because it would have been completed at the same time it started.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Unless there's some sort of "indivisible force" surrounding it, the rocks that were once together, are only expanding and breaking apart, separating, nothing is being "created" really.

Without some education in cosmology and the big bang theory, you're going to have a hard time understanding the concepts involved.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Without some education in cosmology and the big bang theory, you're going to have a hard time understanding the concepts involved.

I've read about cosmology and the big bang, but no I haven't learned it in a school yet if that's what you mean.

Better a hard time than not getting your reason.

 

[Photonic]

I've read about cosmology and the big bang, but no I haven't learned it in a school yet if that's what you mean.

Better a hard time than not getting your reason.

So you admit you are mostly ignorant of the subject but are rather proud of it?

 

[idav]

If it isn't all just pause, there is time. If there wasn't time, the universe couldn't even be expanding, because it would have been completed at the same time it started.

Yes I've considered that especially if time is not linear.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

So you admit you are mostly ignorant of the subject but are rather proud of it?

No, I'm saying bring on the "hard to understand" reasoning.

 

[Photonic]

No, I'm saying bring on the "hard to understand" reasoning.

You do realize that perception of reality and reality are not always the same thing right?

 

[The Sum of Awe]

You do realize that perception of reality and reality are not always the same thing right?

Why is that important? And yes.