Insurrectionist removed from office under the 14th amendment.

[SkepticThinker]

Where is the evidence that peope were planning in mass to overthrow the federal government?

Texts, emails, online chats, blogs, 4Chan, their actions on that day, etc.
As pointed out to you before, many of them showed up with weapons.
As pointed out to you before, they were chanting "Hang Pence" if he didn't stop the certification of the election.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I feel like you're talking euphemistically, here. Let's cut through that somewhat.

Do you personally believe that the violence on January 6th was justified and/or what is your personal perspective on the protests/insurrection that occurred that day?

No. I view it as the fringe element acting on impulse that broke various laws. Those most triggered IOW. Misdirected anger.

A definite warning sign however that if things are not rectified in due time, things will become notably worse if the pressure cooker continues boiling on under pressure as it is with no release.

I'm with those that sees the eventuality of a civil war erupting in due course if things don't change.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

That's entirely a matter of perspective.

Many see themselves as Patriots defending the country's constitution from a political party that regularly attacks it.

They can see themselves as whatever they like. But it's not 'entirely a matter of perspective'.
There is a legally constituted government, and there is a key democratic tenet of the peaceful and secure transfer of power.
People deliberately interfering with that no doubt feel justified to do so...else why would they do it? But there is a legally appointed government, a legal definition of what a traitor is...

Spoiler

Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.
Source : 18 U.S. Code § 2381 - Treason

...and a balance to be struck between punitive and conciliatory action against those involved. I doubt there will be many instances of treason cases brought, if any. Even a charge of sedition would be hard to prove beyond reasonable doubt.

Insurrection

Spoiler

18 U.S. Code § 2383 - Rebellion or insurrection
Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

Seditious Conspiracy

Spoiler

18 U.S. Code § 2384 - Seditious conspiracy
If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

No. I view it as the fringe element acting on impulse that broke various laws. Those most triggered IOW. Misdirected anger.

You feel that their anger, which was about the elected representatives in the capitol building ratifying the results of an election that they were told by the sitting President were a result of extensive fraud, was misdirected at... the elected representatives in the capitol building who were ratifying the results of an election that they were told by the sitting President were a result of extensive fraud?

I mean... I'm not sure what "misdirection" means in this context. Care to enlighten me?

A definite warning sign however that if things are not rectified in due time, things will become notably worse if the pressure cooker continues boiling on under pressure as it is with no release.

You're speaking euphemistically again. Please try and be specific.

What needs to be "rectified", exactly?

I'm with those that sees the eventuality of a civil war erupting in due course if things don't change.

Yet more euphemism.

What needs to change? Who are the two sides in the civil war? Which side do you consider yourself on?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Where is the evidence that peope were planning in mass to overthrow the federal government?

Seditious Conspiracy requires a grant total of 2 people to be involved. There doesn't need to be anything 'in mass'.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

That's a good point. I never heard any formal declaration that an insurrection occurred. Only alleged determinations. AFAIK

It won't really work that way, in my understanding. Instead, individuals could be charged with insurrection (or treason, or sedition, etc). However, there is a burden of proof on proving that individual was involved beyond reasonable doubt. It's not enough to declare there was an insurrection, and then charge whoever was there with insurrectionism.

Many people weren't there to deliberately overthrow the legal government. Rather, they mistakenly believed Trump was the rightful legal government. That makes them stupid, and in some cases dangerous, but there is likely only a small subgroup that knew what they were doing was illegal, and were invested in driving a change of who was in power.

Ignorance isn't a defence, of course, and plenty of people will be changed with trespass, or refusing to comply with law enforcement, or on weapons charges. But I doubt the DOJ will start going after many for insurrection.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I remember the oath when I entered the military....

I ___, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.

So, say, participating in a mob intent on contravening the 12th Amendment to get their preferred candidate elected president... that would be a violation of the enlistment oath.

And to go one step further, not stepping up to fight back against such a mob, domestic enemies of the Constitution that they are, would also be a violation of the oath.

Do you agree?

 

[Polymath257]

No. I view it as the fringe element acting on impulse that broke various laws. Those most triggered IOW. Misdirected anger.

A definite warning sign however that if things are not rectified in due time, things will become notably worse if the pressure cooker continues boiling on under pressure as it is with no release.

I'm with those that sees the eventuality of a civil war erupting in due course if things don't change.

The best thing would be to charge those involved with their crimes. but that should include the politicians that lead them on and helped to plan the event.

The civil war would be the result of the nutjobs wanting to put their guy into power by illegal methods.

Yes, things need to be rectified. The literal fascists need to be excluded from either main party, both parties need to condemn violence and destruction. Both need to commit to election integrity (and that means no gerrymandering and allowing for ease of voting for those who are qualified).

 

[Twilight Hue]

You feel that their anger, which was about the elected representatives in the capitol building ratifying the results of an election that they were told by the sitting President were a result of extensive fraud, was misdirected at... the elected representatives in the capitol building who were ratifying the results of an election that they were told by the sitting President were a result of extensive fraud?

I mean... I'm not sure what "misdirection" means in this context. Care to enlighten me?


You're speaking euphemistically again. Please try and be specific.

What needs to be "rectified", exactly?


Yet more euphemism.

What needs to change? Who are the two sides in the civil war? Which side do you consider yourself on?

My anger, as well as others, is at whomever is responsible for eroding people's freedoms and liberties that are resulting in Americas downward spiral in the freedoms index.

Those are the people that require watching by those vigilant enough to recognize the dangers by their actions that go against the grain of the Constitution and Bill of Rights that are supposed to protect all Americans.

The action by those invading the capital was misdirected because I think it was a wrong action to engage in, but like I stated before these people were the lunatic fringe that acts on emotion, but a definite precursor and sign that once has ran its course, will lead to a more deliberate thought out response by those afterwards to address the reasons why this happened in the first place who will, upon hindsight, determine if any, future courses of action to take without the emotional component getting in the way. Hopefully, a peaceful civilized resolution will come of it through dialog and analysis, but if things persist as they are, other measures could very well be taken including force as an option by someone who has adequate power to do so.

As far as sides go personally, I will always take the one that dosent proactively attack the Constitution and Bill of Rights to the greater degree.


What needs to change is the compulsory rule by mandate mindset that both sides have engaged in which erodes American freedoms ever further, and reinstate a more elective mindset when making policy and laws that don't interfere with Constutional protections. Democrats more than Republicans are responsible as it stands, albiet both engaged in compulsory policymaking that can be seen as threatening.

One thing is clear however, is that Democrats most definitely had created Trump in the first place because of their shift to a more extreme left wing.

This opinion piece is why , and i agree with every word...


How the Left Created Trump

If this is still too euphemistic, I can't do much better in elaborating.

 

[Twilight Hue]

The best thing would be to charge those involved with their crimes. but that should include the politicians that lead them on and helped to plan the event.

The civil war would be the result of the nutjobs wanting to put their guy into power by illegal methods.

Yes, things need to be rectified. The literal fascists need to be excluded from either main party, both parties need to condemn violence and destruction. Both need to commit to election integrity (and that means no gerrymandering and allowing for ease of voting for those who are qualified).

I'm not against the prosecutions of those who broke the laws. The Capitol among other established buildings should be afforded the status of being sacrosanct and revered as the nation's symbolism of freedom and liberty.

Neither party has shown much of that as it was in the past. Hopefully, this disregard for the sanctity of our nations center of power will end by both sides, and a proper reverence restored in respect to those who admirably served in the past that put America on the pedestal as a country worth being a part of.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Banana republic. Calling Jan 6 an insurrection is disinformation.

What do you call it, a weenie roast? Love-in? Kumbaya around the camp-fire?

Please explain how breaking in through windows and doors of the nation's Capitol is not a direct act of insurrection. Please explain how threats of hanging the Vice President of the United States not a a direct act of insurrection?

You want disinformation? Let me find you a mirror.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Then go away. It truth offends you so much leave.

Excuse us, but who are you to tell other memberrs to leave? Did you just run a coup and take over RF?

 

[F1fan]

I can see people thinking that way. Yes.

Do I think it has gotten to a point where violence is justified in accordance to the oath of office? I'd say no. Not yet.

But it's certainly heading in that direction imo if the US keeps dropping in the freedoms index.

What freedoms are being infringed and/or limited that would lead to violence? It's certainly not reproductive rights and women you are referring to, so what is it?

 

[Twilight Hue]

They can see themselves as whatever they like. But it's not 'entirely a matter of perspective'.
There is a legally constituted government, and there is a key democratic tenet of the peaceful and secure transfer of power.
People deliberately interfering with that no doubt feel justified to do so...else why would they do it? But there is a legally appointed government, a legal definition of what a traitor is...

Spoiler

Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.
Source : 18 U.S. Code § 2381 - Treason

...and a balance to be struck between punitive and conciliatory action against those involved. I doubt there will be many instances of treason cases brought, if any. Even a charge of sedition would be hard to prove beyond reasonable doubt.

Insurrection

Spoiler

18 U.S. Code § 2383 - Rebellion or insurrection
Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

Seditious Conspiracy

Spoiler

18 U.S. Code § 2384 - Seditious conspiracy
If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.

There's also this....

Spoiler

Innocent Until Proven Guilty: How the 5th Amendment Protects You — Americana Corner.

 

[F1fan]

No. I view it as the fringe element acting on impulse that broke various laws. Those most triggered IOW. Misdirected anger.

A definite warning sign however that if things are not rectified in due time, things will become notably worse if the pressure cooker continues boiling on under pressure as it is with no release.

I'm with those that sees the eventuality of a civil war erupting in due course if things don't change.

You are talking about conservatives without naming names.

Democrats aren't threatening the FBI or members of congress, it's MAGAs. Election officials are being threatened constantly, and MAGAs are using their threats to force out ethical officials in hopes that unethical conservatives take their places. This is one reason why the threats to democracy is the biggest concern of Americans today. We all see who it is, and what they are doing. We will see if citizens will elect trustworthy representatives in November.

 

[Twilight Hue]

What freedoms are being infringed and/or limited that would lead to violence? It's certainly not reproductive rights and women you are referring to, so what is it?

People are having their freedoms of choice stripped away and your right, womans reproduction rights are back under threat, yet the rule by mandate persists. Mostly by ban/mandate happy Democrats who strip away freedoms of choice well more than Republicans do. It may seem over small things , but small things lead to larger things and larger things lead to humongous things. That violence comes from that fear of more of this practice. Like the new deal mandates forcing people to go in a direction they don't like.

That's how it works and the left just got a taste of that particular medicine.

Question is, what's next?

 

[SkepticThinker]

People are having their freedoms of choice stripped away and your right, yet the rule by mandate persists. Mostly by ban happy democrats who strip away freedoms of choice well more than Republicans do. It may seem small but small things lead to larger things and larger things lead to humongous things.

That's how it works and the left just got a taste of that particular medicine.

Question is, what's next?

Oh, was it the Democrats who decided that half the population should no longer be afforded bodily autonomy?

Oh, you weren't talking about that. Hmm ... so what are you talking about?

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Their intent was to overturn the results of the election and, if necessary, to kill people to make that happen.

Exactly!

from what I can find form various statements collected the majority where peaceful protesters.

A small group of agitators tried to ramp things up( some evidence that at least one was an on the FBI patrol).

It was a riot and bad stuff happened, but how does anyone think stomping through the capitol was meant to overthrow the government?

And this was why I asked the question.

A riot is not an insurrection. A riot involving people storming the Capital where votes are being counted and where people are doing things like replacing American flags with the person they want installed as President, threatening to hang the person overseeing the vote, and clearly representing the former President claiming fraud: that is an insurrection.

All that is clearly visible in media and testimonies from the people involved. Ignoring it is either bias or ignorance, and you don't strike me as someone who is ignorant.

I am biased: Trump is a narcissistic shyster in my opinion. But I am basing my assessment of the January 6th riot as an insurrection on the very clear intentions of that crowd. Do you really not think they were there to stop the counting of votes? Do you not think they were there because they wanted Trump as President and not Joe Biden?

 

[Truth in love]

I doubt you rely on reputable media, so here are some links:

Court document in Proud Boys case laid out plan to occupy Capitol buildings on Jan. 6

Oath Keepers' lawyer arrested in connection with Jan. 6

Proud Boys developed plans to take over government buildings in Washington DC

'1776 Returns': Document in Proud Boys Jan. 6 prosecution reveals plans

So this wasn't a protest that got out of hand, as many conservatives claim. This was a plan that succeeded with the help of the many gullible who showed up believing Trump's lie about election fraud.

LOL your choice for "reputable media" is really funny.

The ABC article sure looks like nothing being planned or plotted. Also the false labeling the Oath Keepers as anti government makes it celar that un biased reporting is not their thing.

 

[Truth in love]

Courts are not perfect, not even the Supreme Court. But when 60 courts didn't find any fault that should say something. And, except for the SCotUS, there is the possibility of an appeal.
If you love the law, you should accept it or appeal the ruling. But you simply don't like the verdicts and therefore don't accept the rulings. That is not loving the law.

Which courts had a trial in this?