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Irony of the evolutionary belief

ChieftheCef

Well-Known Member
I have questions, and perhaps one or two of you can answer some questions peacefully. I prefer a peaceful discussion without insults, perhaps. I am reading a book by Hawking and Mlodinow. There are statements there I have questions about. When I first got on these forums I was told outrightly that there is no proof in science.
True, there is no such thing as proof in science. By definition proof is a math concept, and used in logical arguments. It is important to get things straight in plain English language.

The problem with logic is that arguments are based on assumptions, which are often linked to the conclusions or proofs, and often subjective. The acceptance of the proof of an argument is often dependent of accepting the assumptions. This is a significant problem with the apologetic arguments for the existence of God that most often circular. and dependent on subjective assumptions.

In science nothing is proved. Methodological Naturalism falsifies theories and hypotheses based on the predicable nature of our physical world using objectively verifiable evidence.

In this way nothing is ever final and proved in science. Science is based on the evolving nature of knowledge as new facts, information and discoveries become known concerning the nature of our physical existence.
See, it's too good to be true, like Jesus and Moses and Muhammad and Buddha and Krishna. There is a god in between all of these that science can detect if it understands a few things. The Animating Force, Monotheist God, and God Behind The Gods is the sheer Nothingness that makes Everything, the Maker. Together with his dualistic aspect of which he is one with, Nature (the somethingness), they compose us, we are them. It is all one big fractal, everything is relatively the same on the fractal with few major differences. As you ask yourself, your body tries. As you ask Nature she tries. DO you know that too little sex is as bad as too much sex? Or that most people aren't even close to bad, even among drug users? Drug users tend to not use, more so than those who do addicts. Most grass is not eaten, most herbivores not starved, most people, places and things alright. And that bad stuff that happened made us stronger. Look at volcanoes! Great fertility from them. Same with wild fires. Cataclysmic events weed out the weak. Badness grows you and others, that does not mean seek it. There is true god. It is not yours, it's what you find with journeying, or science or even philosophy when comparing it to science.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
I have questions, and perhaps one or two of you can answer some questions peacefully. I prefer a peaceful discussion without insults, perhaps. I am reading a book by Hawking and Mlodinow. There are statements there I have questions about. When I first got on these forums I was told outrightly that there is no proof in science.

The problem is that you cannot understand the differences between evidence and proofs.

What @shunyadragon posted up include what proof is, and they are not same thing as evidence.

Sure, in the court of law, they may make evidence and proof as synonymous, but the court of law isn’t NATURAL SCIENCES, and SCIENCES aren’t the court of law, so it best to use the proper terminology to avoid confusing proof & evidence.

The short of it, are -
  • PROOFS are mathematical models that often expressed or represented in the forms of EQUATIONS, FORMULAS, CONSTANTS…these equations are merely PROPOSED & ABSTRACT SOLUTIONS…maths are useful tools in sciences, especially in physics, including theoretical physics. More importantly, maths are parts of explanatory models in a hypothesis or scientific theory, so when you are testing the models, and if the evidence & experiments refuted the models, then that would mean the mathematical proofs are wrong too, because the evidence have refuted the proof.
  • EVIDENCE are what test the models, thus they are what test the explanations, test the predictions and test the mathematical proofs. The TESTS are the means to determine if hypothesis is scientific (hence “verifying the hypothesis”) or not scientific (hence “refuting the hypothesis”).
Evidence, experiments & data what important to sciences, not the mathematical proofs.

When you talk of “proving science”, you are basically showing that you don understand the proper usage of the word.

You don’t “prove science”…no, instead you would “test science”

And the only way you can test science or test the hypothesis or theory, are with OBSERVATIONS, hence -
  • observations of EXPERIMENTS
  • observations of EVIDENCE
  • and the observations would reveal information about the evidence & experiments, where the information referred to DATA.
It is these testable observations that will refute weak or incorrect hypotheses, and will verify & validate correct or strong hypotheses.

As the theory of evolution have enormous numbers of evidence supporting, it is well-tested scientific theory, hence Evolution is science.

Until you use right terms, you will keep repeating the same mistakes, over and over again…stubborn ignorance are not a virtue, it is example of persistent ignorance.
 
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IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
If, according to evolutionists, human intelligence eventually emerged in an environment that was previously lifeless for millions and millions of years... what is so strange that a Superior Intelligence has already existed for another INFINITE number of years BEFORE that period of time? :cool:
Science makes no comment on the existence or non-existence of God, because it is impossible to test for God. Remember that evolution is not a "atheist ideology." Most people who accept evolution also believe in God. My point here is simply that while evolution is based on actual evidence, belief in God is not.

BTW, I should also mention that Time begins with the Big Bang. There was no "before." Speaking of what came "before" the Big Bang is a bit like asking what is south of the South Pole.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Science makes no comment on the existence or non-existence of God, because it is impossible to test for God. Remember that evolution is not a "atheist ideology." Most people who accept evolution also believe in God. My point here is simply that while evolution is based on actual evidence, belief in God is not.

BTW, I should also mention that Time begins with the Big Bang. There was no "before." Speaking of what came "before" the Big Bang is a bit like asking what is south of the South Pole.
If a person believes in God He came before everything else.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
The problem is that you cannot understand the differences between evidence and proofs.

What @shunyadragon posted up include what proof is, and they are not same thing as evidence.

Sure, in the court of law, they may make evidence and proof as synonymous, but the court of law isn’t NATURAL SCIENCES, and SCIENCES aren’t the court of law, so it best to use the proper terminology to avoid confusing proof & evidence.

The short of it, are -
  • PROOFS are mathematical models that often expressed or represented in the forms of EQUATIONS, FORMULAS, CONSTANTS…these equations are merely PROPOSED & ABSTRACT SOLUTIONS…maths are useful tools in sciences, especially in physics, including theoretical physics. More importantly, maths are parts of explanatory models in a hypothesis or scientific theory, so when you are testing the models, and if the evidence & experiments refuted the models, then that would mean the mathematical proofs are wrong too, because the evidence have refuted the proof.
  • EVIDENCE are what test the models, thus they are what test the explanations, test the predictions and test the mathematical proofs. The TESTS are the means to determine if hypothesis is scientific (hence “verifying the hypothesis”) or not scientific (hence “refuting the hypothesis”).
Evidence, experiments & data what important to sciences, not the mathematical proofs.

When you talk of “proving science”, you are basically showing that you don understand the proper usage of the word.

You don’t “prove science”…no, instead you would “test science”

And the only way you can test science or test the hypothesis or theory, are with OBSERVATIONS, hence -
  • observations of EXPERIMENTS
  • observations of EVIDENCE
  • and the observations would reveal information about the evidence & experiments, where the information referred to DATA.
It is these testable observations that will refute weak or incorrect hypotheses, and will verify & validate correct or strong hypotheses.

As the theory of evolution have enormous numbers of evidence supporting, it is well-tested scientific theory, hence Evolution is science.

Until you use right terms, you will keep repeating the same mistakes, over and over again…stubborn ignorance are not a virtue, it is example of persistent ignorance.
I do not find the evidence some put forth to, um, place as um...proof no I mean evidence that life came about by chance unconvincing.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
God exists in eternity, not in time. Time is part of the universe, the creation.
God is there before anything. He has no beginning or end. His power reaches invisibly when and where He wants. That is how his ruach or holy spirit worked over the waters in the creation account. His invisible power goes where He wants. It is from Him. Genesis 1:2 2 "Now the earth had become waste and wild, and darkness was on the face of the roaring deep,—but the Spirit of God was brooding on the face of the water." Spirit in Hebrew there is ruach. Which also means breath or wind.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
God is there before anything. He has no beginning or end. His power reaches invisibly when and where He wants. That is how his ruach or holy spirit worked over the waters in the creation account. His invisible power goes where He wants. It is from Him. Genesis 1:2 2 "Now the earth had become waste and wild, and darkness was on the face of the roaring deep,—but the Spirit of God was brooding on the face of the water." Spirit in Hebrew there is ruach. Which also means breath or wind.
Again, you are assuming that there was a before, when in fact Time didn't exist until God created the universe. Again, God exists in ETERNITY, not in Time. He is not bound by the creation. I think we are experiencing a failure of imagination here. You are simply having a rough time imagining existence outside of time.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Again, you are assuming that there was a before, when in fact Time didn't exist until God created the universe. Again, God exists in ETERNITY, not in Time. He is not bound by the creation. I think we are experiencing a failure of imagination here. You are simply having a rough time imagining existence outside of time.
He is obviously not bound by His creation. I am saying that God cannot be seen by human eyes, that He is from everlasting to everlasting. Right now time is not the subject for me but thank you for your comments.
 

TLK Valentine

Read the books that others would burn.
He is obviously not bound by His creation.

Is He bound by anything at all?


I am saying that God cannot be seen by human eyes, that He is from everlasting to everlasting. Right now time is not the subject for me but thank you for your comments.

Ok, so He can't be seen by human eyes. Our experience is that we can infer the existence of things we can't see by the effects they have.
I can see footprints on the beach and know that someone waled there - even if I can't see the person.

What effect does God leave behind that points unmistakably to "God"?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Is He bound by anything at all?




Ok, so He can't be seen by human eyes. Our experience is that we can infer the existence of things we can't see by the effects they have.
I can see footprints on the beach and know that someone waled there - even if I can't see the person.

What effect does God leave behind that points unmistakably to "God"?
I believe there is a God. I cannot say if God is bound by anything. I do think it's a personal journey to understand and recognize there is a God who exists.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
I do not find the evidence some put forth to, um, place as um...proof no I mean evidence that life came about by chance unconvincing.

I find God creating light, plants, animals out of nothing to be unconvincing.

I find God creating Adam from “dust of the ground” or soil, to be just as unconvincing.

Both claims in Genesis are mere superstitions (eg “God did it”), pure fantasy (or fairytale) and unnatural.

The beliefs in a god or gods are beliefs in the supernatural.

And there have never been evidence for any supernatural.

Plus, you are relying on book of religious fantasies, whose authors have no understanding of nature or natural reality.

You talk of there been “no proofs” (which are mathematical equations) for Evolution, but where are the no equations for God.

you continues to confuse proofs with evidence, as you always do, because you are anti-science who stubbornly refuse to learn the difference between equations (proofs) and evidence.

Why are you really here, talking about science and nature that you don’t understand, because your head is in the clouds, believing in magical beings with magical power (divine power)?
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I have questions, and perhaps one or two of you can answer some questions peacefully. I prefer a peaceful discussion without insults, perhaps. I am reading a book by Hawking and Mlodinow. There are statements there I have questions about. When I first got on these forums I was told outrightly that there is no proof in science.
I am happy to answer any questions relating to science if it's something I know about. Just do an @ of me so that I get an alert.
 

TLK Valentine

Read the books that others would burn.
If a person believes in God He came before everything else.

And if a person doesn't believe in God, He didn't.

But for the moment, let's assume the existence of a God - We look around and see a world that runs with verifiable reliability... in accordance with physical laws that we can express mathematically.
Now, assuming the existence of God, He set the universe in motion and designed it in accordance with those laws... and while such a God could break those laws, a competent one wouldn't need to.

Lo and behold, the laws don't break - gravity, chemistry, physics, etc... always tooling along exactly as the formulas predict.

So if there is a God, He's competent - and that's a comforting thought.
And because He's competent, we can learn quite a bit about His creation by studying it closely.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
And if a person doesn't believe in God, He didn't.

But for the moment, let's assume the existence of a God - We look around and see a world that runs with verifiable reliability... in accordance with physical laws that we can express mathematically.
Now, assuming the existence of God, He set the universe in motion and designed it in accordance with those laws... and while such a God could break those laws, a competent one wouldn't need to.

Lo and behold, the laws don't break - gravity, chemistry, physics, etc... always tooling along exactly as the formulas predict.

So if there is a God, He's competent - and that's a comforting thought.
And because He's competent, we can learn quite a bit about His creation by studying it closely.
The Bible says (and I believe it and it makes sense to me) that God is from everlasting to everlasting. In other words, no beginning and no end. Psalm 90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, before you had formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, you are God.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
And if a person doesn't believe in God, He didn't.

But for the moment, let's assume the existence of a God - We look around and see a world that runs with verifiable reliability... in accordance with physical laws that we can express mathematically.
Now, assuming the existence of God, He set the universe in motion and designed it in accordance with those laws... and while such a God could break those laws, a competent one wouldn't need to.

Lo and behold, the laws don't break - gravity, chemistry, physics, etc... always tooling along exactly as the formulas predict.

So if there is a God, He's competent - and that's a comforting thought.
And because He's competent, we can learn quite a bit about His creation by studying it closely.
Certainly we (meaning humans) can study creation. That is, in part, what God assigned Adam to do. Some people find it exciting and devote their lives to studying animal life and vegetation. I certainly find it exciting when I see documentaries about animals and their wonderful habits.
And as we know, while we may feel the effects of gravity, scientists cannot explain it. Can God do some things miraculously? In other words, break a law He made without hurting anything? Yes, I believe He can. Because He is God. (And we are not.)
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
And if a person doesn't believe in God, He didn't.

But for the moment, let's assume the existence of a God - We look around and see a world that runs with verifiable reliability... in accordance with physical laws that we can express mathematically.
Now, assuming the existence of God, He set the universe in motion and designed it in accordance with those laws... and while such a God could break those laws, a competent one wouldn't need to.

Lo and behold, the laws don't break - gravity, chemistry, physics, etc... always tooling along exactly as the formulas predict.

So if there is a God, He's competent - and that's a comforting thought.
And because He's competent, we can learn quite a bit about His creation by studying it closely.
So we'll see what happens, if a person believes or doesn't believe. That is what I hope and that hope is based on what I believe and have looked into. Thanks.
 
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