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Is abortion homicide?

Is abortion homicide

  • yes

    Votes: 15 48.4%
  • no

    Votes: 16 51.6%

  • Total voters
    31

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
The problem I have however, is with people who admit that even when a fetus has a right to life, still abortion is acceptable because autonomy>life. These people think that abortion is okay even up to the day before the child is born. For me this type of argumentation conflicts heavily with the moral intuitions we have today.
I don't quite have that position; I don't assert that a fetus necessarily has a right to life. My position is that since the woman's bodily autonomy would trump the fetus' rights if it had them, the question of whether the fetus has rights is irrelevant to the question of abortion.

Let me present an example. Let's say I am a mother and I have an infant. Now, while this infant is not inside me, they are still dependent on me for survival. I must sacrifice a portion of my income in order to buy food and other necessities for that infant (i.e my right of property is being disrupted in a sense). Also, as a mother, I also have to give my breast milk to that infant (if no other source is available) for her to survive. Now, would it be legally acceptable for me, to go out into the backyard and shoot my child as a means to restore my rights (of autonomy and property)?
A problem with your analogy: the mother has other options available, such as giving full custody to the father or handing the child off to Children's Aid. The rights of the mother and the rights of the child aren't actually in conflict.

A better analogy where the rights of the parent and child do come into conflict like they do during pregnancy:

A child is diagnosed with leukaemia. Without a bone marrow donation, he'll certainly die in a few months; with a bone marrow donation, he could live until old age.

A wide search is made and the only matching donor that can be found is the child's mother.

... but the mother doesn't want to do the bone marrow donation. Would it be legally acceptable for her to refuse to donate?

Yes. Absolutely yes, regardless of her reasons.

Regardless of whether her reason for refusing is that she's afraid of the risk to herself, or that she can't be laid up when she has other kids to support, or she just hates the little cancer-ridden brat and wants to be rid of him, it's legally acceptable for her to deny the use of her body to her son, even if the boy will certainly die because of it.
 

निताइ dasa

Nitai's servant's servant
I don't quite have that position; I don't assert that a fetus necessarily has a right to life. My position is that since the woman's bodily autonomy would trump the fetus' rights if it had them, the question of whether the fetus has rights is irrelevant to the question of abortion.

I'm sorry, but this is a stance that I find illogical. I actually think its the opposite (the autonomy is irrelevant to the discussion). Nowhere in the consideration of our moral intuitions do we ever place the autonomy of one individual above the life of another. If this principle was accepted, then like I said before if would be acceptable to kick a refugee out of a country knowing that they will die, or for parents to shoot their children simply because the children are using the parent's resources. The only reputable philosopher who argues in this way is Judith Jarvis Thompson, and her argument is a whole new discussion.

A problem with your analogy: the mother has other options available, such as giving full custody to the father or handing the child off to Children's Aid.

Yes but that process takes time. Paperwork needs to be signed. A suitable foster must be found. This time (in which care shifts from the parents to someone else) is analogous to the 9 months a pregnant women must gestate her child. I see no considerable moral difference between the scenarios. In any case, even if the parents did not have an option available (they lived in the middle of nowhere, or the mother was single) it still would not be permissible to take the child out into the backyard and shoot her. If you assume that the fetus has a right to life, and yet permit abortion anyway, I see no problem with permitting the above.


A child is diagnosed with leukaemia. Without a bone marrow donation, he'll certainly die in a few months; with a bone marrow donation, he could live until old age.

A wide search is made and the only matching donor that can be found is the child's mother.

... but the mother doesn't want to do the bone marrow donation. Would it be legally acceptable for her to refuse to donate?

Yes. Absolutely yes, regardless of her reasons.

You are confusing the principle of rights. This example is not analogous to abortion. Take note of what I said before.

It is of a greater imperative to protect already present rights from violation than to restore already violated rights. You cannot restore a right in order by violating an already intact one.

In the case of the bone marrow example, the child's right to life has already been violated (she will die if left naturally due to a disease). The government cannot violate the mother's already intact right of autonomy (by forcing her to give up her bone marrow) in order to restore the child's already violated right to life (i.e transplant the bone marrow). The same with abortion. When a fetus enters the mother without her consent, then her right of autonomy has already been violated (and the state has a duty to punish that violator). However the mother cannot restore her right of autonomy if it means violating another's right (i.e the fetus' right to life). The government has a much stronger mandate to protect intact rights than to restore violated ones. I cannot restore my rights by disrupting someone else. When this principle is taken into account, the organ donation example weakens your argument. There is also a moral difference between doing harm and allowing harm. In the bone marrow example, the mother is allowing harm to happen (but since she is not responsible for the leukemia she has no obligation here to assist). In the act of abortion, the mother (or rather the doctor) is doing harm, by killing the fetus.

I will give you another example. Generally it is assumed that citizens have a right of property (i.e I can own certain things, and have control over them). Lets say, that person A steals a great sum of money from person B. This means that person B's right of property has been violated by person A. Thus the government must step in and punish person A for violating that right. What the government doesn't have to do is restore the money that person B lost (i.e restore the right). If Person B for example goes out and steals the same amount of money she lost from Person C, the government would not care that she is trying to restore her lost money, but it would persecute person B for violating person C's right of property. The government exists primarily to protect the rights of citizens (that is its strongest mandate). It does not exist to restore already violated rights (although the government can do that, but it is a weaker mandate).
 
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meghanwaterlillies

Well-Known Member
So, I believe that abortion is homicide because I believe a baby to be human, but I believe that even homicide can be the lesser of two evils. I would rather my mother put me out of my misery than be an unwanted pregnancy.

Having been in multiple jails, psyche-wards, and chemical dependency centers, I know too often what becomes of unwanted pregnancies. I'm not saying there aren't exceptions to the rule, but sociopathic tenancies run higher in people from broken homes, and I would rather be aborted than be the fruit of an unwanted pregnancy or raised in the dysfunctional households without a Father that are typically the ones getting abortions.

The people that are equipped and ready to raise children to be healthy productive members of society are usually not the ones going to the abortion clinic.

Do I think abortion is homicide? Yes
Do I think abortion is evil? Yes
Do I think it should be illegal? No, I consider it sometimes the lesser of two evils, and sometimes the most merciful thing to do both for the child and the mother.

Regarding the Poll question. Here is the definition for homicide:
hom·i·cide
(hŏm′ĭ-sīd′, hō′mĭ-)
n.
1. The killing of one person by another, regardless of intention or legality.
2. A person who kills another person.
I'm pro life period.
 

meghanwaterlillies

Well-Known Member
I'm pro life period.
It could always mean that's it homicide when it was placed manipulatively in society.
Then people who assumed it as not such a bad thing got pulled into it.
Then others can use it to manipulate someone knowing that damage it can do to a person.
There some things that might even cause an abortion or prevent someone from having anyways so.
 

meghanwaterlillies

Well-Known Member
So, I believe that abortion is homicide because I believe a baby to be human, but I believe that even homicide can be the lesser of two evils. I would rather my mother put me out of my misery than be an unwanted pregnancy.

Having been in multiple jails, psyche-wards, and chemical dependency centers, I know too often what becomes of unwanted pregnancies. I'm not saying there aren't exceptions to the rule, but sociopathic tenancies run higher in people from broken homes, and I would rather be aborted than be the fruit of an unwanted pregnancy or raised in the dysfunctional households without a Father that are typically the ones getting abortions.

The people that are equipped and ready to raise children to be healthy productive members of society are usually not the ones going to the abortion clinic.

Do I think abortion is homicide? Yes
Do I think abortion is evil? Yes
Do I think it should be illegal? No, I consider it sometimes the lesser of two evils, and sometimes the most merciful thing to do both for the child and the mother.

Regarding the Poll question. Here is the definition for homicide:
hom·i·cide
(hŏm′ĭ-sīd′, hō′mĭ-)
n.
1. The killing of one person by another, regardless of intention or legality.
2. A person who kills another person.
Also I cant get around the word homicide, I don't push that word on others, I'm pro life though.
That's not exactly the word I would use. Because it's a double bind.
Because abortion is manipulative or can be used as such.
 

Terese

Mangalam Pundarikakshah
Staff member
Premium Member
Also I cant get around the word homicide, I don't push that word on others, I'm pro life though.
That's not exactly the word I would use. Because it's a double bind.
Because abortion is manipulative or can be used as such.
Why do you think abortion is manipulative?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I'm sorry, but this is a stance that I find illogical. I actually think its the opposite (the autonomy is irrelevant to the discussion). Nowhere in the consideration of our moral intuitions do we ever place the autonomy of one individual above the life of another.
We do it all the time. This is why blood donation isn't compulsory, for instance.

If this principle was accepted, then like I said before if would be acceptable to kick a refugee out of a country knowing that they will die, or for parents to shoot their children simply because the children are using the parent's resources.
A country isn't a person.

Yes but that process takes time. Paperwork needs to be signed. A suitable foster must be found. This time (in which care shifts from the parents to someone else) is analogous to the 9 months a pregnant women must gestate her child.
Not really.

I see no considerable moral difference between the scenarios.
Yet it exists, even if you can't see it.

In any case, even if the parents did not have an option available (they lived in the middle of nowhere, or the mother was single) it still would not be permissible to take the child out into the backyard and shoot her. If you assume that the fetus has a right to life, and yet permit abortion anyway, I see no problem with permitting the above.
... because you see no difference between placing limits on conduct and violating bodily security?

You are confusing the principle of rights. This example is not analogous to abortion. Take note of what I said before.
It's precisely analogous to abortion: in every situation where a person's bodily autonomy comes in conflict with the other person's right to life, the right to life loses. This principle even applies to corpses: if violating thr bodily autonomy of a corpse could save a life, but the person said "no" while they were alive, we still honour the bodily autonomy even though there isn't a person's rights to protect any more.

It is of a greater imperative to protect already present rights from violation than to restore already violated rights. You cannot restore a right in order by violating an already intact one.

In the case of the bone marrow example, the child's right to life has already been violated (she will die if left naturally due to a disease).
Any child will die if "left naturally", and principles don't become valid by your edict.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
We do it all the time. This is why blood donation isn't compulsory, for instance.
Organ donation isn't relevant. There are no circumstances where the same person both causes the dire need and also is the only possible donor. If that ever happened the laws would get changed immediately, if not before.
Tom
 

निताइ dasa

Nitai's servant's servant
We do it all the time. This is why blood donation isn't compulsory, for instance.

And I've explained in my previous answer why it isn't compulsory. The situation is not analogous. One involves disrupting an intact right, while another involves restoring a violated one. Unless you are arguing that they are the same morally (which will lead you to much really really dodgy conclusions regarding obligatory actions). The general principle with government laws is that the government can't force you to perform an action (like give money to others, help others), but the government can very well force you to "not" perform certain actions (like steal money from others, or hurt others). That is why I said, rights are "ought not" principles. If the fetus has a right to life, then government can very well force you not to harm the fetus for 9 months.Trying to reverse the problem and make it an autonomy issue is really really hard actually, because the principles you work from will contradict many of our considered moral intuitions.

A country isn't a person.

A country's right of sovereignty is analogous to an individual's right of autonomy.

Not really.

Nice refutation 10/10 (I remember now why I don't like debating you :p).

.. because you see no difference between placing limits on conduct and violating bodily security?

Restrictions on abortion is as much a violation in bodily security as telling people they shouldn't kill other individuals who have a right to life.

t's precisely analogous to abortion: in every situation where a person's bodily autonomy comes in conflict with the other person's right to life, the right to life loses.

Its really not. Autonomy derives from Life. You restrict someone's autonomy, you frustrate only a set of their desires. You kill someone you remove their capacity to have desires. Again my point is, there is a big difference between "not harming" someone, and "allowing harm". We should not harm others. That doesn't mean we have to go out and help everyone who has been harmed. Your argument is conflating the two and that is why it is not a good one. You still haven't explained why it isn't acceptable for parents to take their kids into the backyard and shoot them (provided they can't give them away).

Any child will die if "left naturally", and principles don't become valid by your edict.

The question is of neediness. If your actions or inactions (i.e leaving the child alone) puts the child in that state (of needing resources) then you are obliged to provide them those resources or entrust them to someone who can.
 
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Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Ahh Kalikula (not Kalikua). That is what confused me. Yeah you are entitled to have those beliefs, but they are not representative of even the whole school, esp since Shaktism is a traditional school of Hinduism.
Yeah, I misspelled it, sorry. I didn't claim that they were representative of Shaktism as a whole. The other main branch of it is more conservative.
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
All correct (though, Saint Augustine was far from 'stupid, and your opinion that the theory of limbo is 'disgusting' is completely subjective, and of no consequence). .
Im not saying Saint Augustine was stupid, but even geniuses have weaknesses and areas where they are very unintelligent (Like Einstein.)

Saint Augustine grew up in a very unenlightened time. His belief that God would punish innocent babies for all eternity is cruel and irrational.

You can call that subjective, but how about you just identify the obvious. Which way do you think is more merciful, letting the innocent soul into heaven or banning the soul for all eternity for something that wasn't his/her fault or decision?? Please answer the question.
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
From a Christian perspective, there are going to inevitably be times where abortion was the lesser of two evils. How well do you think the average person getting an abortion is going to raise the child?

As I've said, Ive spent my whole life living with people from broken homes or without a responsible father figure. They are on average more likely to have bad habits, sociopathic tendencies, and character defects that negatively impact society.

So, from a Christian (or any perspective that believes in Hell) the aborted fetuses that would have gone to hell, got lucky they were aborted.

Some of them would have lead others into sin and possibly hell as well, so in those cases, abortion was good ( For instance, if Nero, Joseph Stalin, or Adolf Hitler were aborted, it would have been good for everyone and saved millions of lives and saved them from Hell, therefore we know abortion has the potential to be good for everyone, even from a Christian perspective.)

Some of those fetuses would have committed suicide or lived lives of pain and agony. For them, I consider their getting delivered of that misery to be a good thing.

For those who would have made a positive contribution to society and lived honest happy lives, I'd say abortion was evil in those cases (according to how I interpret the word evil.)

Regardless of what your definition of good and evil is, some of those aborted fetuses would have turned out either way. So abortion has been both good and evil
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Speaking from the standpoint of a US citizen, at one point,

Shooting a Cherokee human being was the moral equivalent of shooting a wolf. Because a voting majority considered that necessary to their way of life.
Enslaving a black human being was the moral equivalent of enslaving a mule. Because a voting majority considered that necessary to their way of life.

Today,
Removing a fetal human being is the moral equivalent of removing a tumor. Because a voting majority consider it necessary to their way of life.
That is the moral bottom line.
I see hard core abortionists as the moral equivalent of a slave owner driving some indigenous peoples down the Trail of Tears. Because, similarly, they have a meaning for the word "person" where expedience trumps life.
Tom
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I see hard core abortionists as the moral equivalent of a slave owner driving some indigenous peoples down the Trail of Tears. Because, similarly, they have a meaning for the word "person" where expedience trumps life.
Tom
OTOH, I see the anti-choicers as the moral equivalent of those who forced African-American troops into having experiments conducted on them:
http://atlantablackstar.com/2015/06/24/pentagon-admits-using-black-soldiers-human-guinea-pigs-wwii/

... or as the equivalent the forced abortions under China's one-child policy.

I think you're fooling yourself if you think that history will look back on your movement with anything other than shame at the way that it has subjugated women.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
OTOH, I see the anti-choicers as the moral equivalent of those who forced African-American troops into having experiments conducted on them:
http://atlantablackstar.com/2015/06/24/pentagon-admits-using-black-soldiers-human-guinea-pigs-wwii/

... or as the equivalent the forced abortions under China's one-child policy.

I think you're fooling yourself if you think that history will look back on your movement with anything other than shame at the way that it has subjugated women.
Remarkable batch of strawman you got going on there. Here, let me set it afire.
How is my opinion the equivalent of choosing death for the people you are talking about? I agree, those are immoral choices because somebody is choosing death for somebody else. But if you don't have a moral problem with the concept, then why do you even care?
Tom
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Remarkable batch of strawman you got going on there. Here, let me set it afire.
How is my opinion the equivalent of choosing death for the people you are talking about? I agree, those are immoral choices because somebody is choosing death for somebody else.
Pay closer attention. None of them involved choosing death.

Lifelong medical issues and abhorrent violations of bodily autonomy, but not death.

Edit: the common thread between those examples and the anti-choice movement is that they deny people the autonomy to decide what happens to their own bodies.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Pay closer attention. None of them involved choosing death.
Both of them did. I am certain that some, probably all, of the human guinea pigs, died early from the Choice made to use them. And abortion always kills, even when it is utterly required to save the mother.
Tom
 

Stalwart

Member
Saint Augustine grew up in a very unenlightened time. His belief that God would punish innocent babies for all eternity is cruel and irrational.

You can call that subjective, but how about you just identify the obvious. Which way do you think is more merciful, letting the innocent soul into heaven or banning the soul for all eternity for something that wasn't his/her fault or decision?? Please answer the question.

The unsaved souls of the dead unborn are not tortured; they simply exist without communion with God, because they never had the chance to know Him, or to come into actual communion with Him through the provision of divine grace and the virtue of charity, which is necessary to salvation, via the sacrament of baptism. Hell is punishment, and heaven is reward. Limbo is neither; the dead unborn go there because they do not deserve punishment, but nor do they deserve reward.

Which is more merciful? The former. But which is more just? Neither - because as I have explained to you here, the aborted do not go to hell, and do not consciously suffer. Instead, they are held in limbo; a state of neutral suspension. The premise of your question is wrong.
 

Stalwart

Member
The "technicalities" weren't the problem. Ms. Halappanavar's death speaks to a fundamental problem with "life of the woman" exceptions to abortion bans: by the time it was clear that she would die without an abortion, it was already too late to save her.

Medical science generally isn't precise enough to make these "life of the woman" exceptions work. They're really only in place as a way to sell these anti-choice laws as less monstrous than they really are; they aren't an effective way to save women's lives.

And it's a real pity that that sometimes happens. However, no woman should reserve the right to kill her own unborn child for any reason -- when the disruption of pregnancy becomes an inevitable element in surgical intervention to save the mother's life, whether as a result of the pregnancy or not, the choice is still not hers; it is her doctor's.

You cannot say that because in some rare cases, some women suffer to varying degrees due to the continuation of a pregnancy that the standard ought to be set for the willful mass slaughter of the innocent at the behest of their own mothers. To be quite frank, s**t happens; the world is far from perfect.
 
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