Is anti-theocracy considered a "far right" position, e.g. the Netherlands

[libre]

his positions that Islamic immigration to the Netherlands must be stopped.

Trying to prioritize some religious groups over others in immigration is discrimination.

As for 40% of Muslims in the UK wanting Sharia, you could also write that headline as 'The majority of Muslims in the UK oppose theocracy', but that obviously doesn't jive with the narrative suggested in the original post.

 

[LuisDantas]

Trying to prioritize some religious groups over others in immigration is discrimination.

Yes. Yes, it is. And I can see how that instinctively sounds wrong, even to me at first.

But there are some very significant points to consider.

First and foremost, I don't know that discrimination is even avoidable when any community decides how to deal with immigrants. There are barriers not only of cultural values and opportunities, but even of fairly neutral and objective elements such as languages and the proficiency in those languages. It is a simple fact that people are treated differently and have different opportunities due to their accents, let alone proficiencies.

And Muslims, it must be acknowledged, are notoriously prone to want to keep themselves apart of non-Muslims, so much so that Hindustani (the main language in India and the official language of Pakistan) exists in two forms using two entirely different scripts: Hindi and Urdu. In that sense they are indeed noteworthy and it might not be much of a stretch (if a stretch at all) to say that Muslim migrants are discriminated in non-Muslim communities mainly because they insist on discriminating themselves from their hosts.

I wish I was exagerating.

As for 40% of Muslims in the UK wanting Sharia, you could also write that headline as 'The majority of Muslims in the UK oppose theocracy', but that obviously doesn't jive with the narrative suggested in the original post.

Yes, you could. It is interesting to wonder how come that majority doesn't seem to be very visible, though. I have my suspicions.

 

[Estro Felino]

Trying to prioritize some religious groups over others in immigration is discrimination.

It's not discrimination if there is not mutuality and mutual respect.
Meaning: if the country of origin doesn't treat all religions equally.

 

[libre]

It is interesting to wonder how come that majority doesn't seem to be very visible, though.

As far as the mass-media goes, Muslim's aren't very visible in the western media unless it's political posturing or they fit the description from dispatch. I don't really know what I could reasonably expect from that 60% to be more 'visible' or why we would expect such. I anticipate the 60% supporting secularism is substantially higher than the previous generations, and this change should be acknowledged and encouraged.

First and foremost, I don't know that discrimination is even avoidable when any community decides how to deal with immigrants. There are barriers not only of cultural values and opportunities, but even of fairly neutral and objective elements such as languages and the proficiency in those languages. It is a simple fact that people are treated differently and have different opportunities due to their accents, let alone proficiency.

I agree insofar as all immigration processes will have to create arbitrary standards by which immigration is approved.
However in my view to make prohibitions on minority Religious groups would only serve to further reinforce the hegemony of the dominant Religion rather than protect the public from extremist faith.

 

[LuisDantas]

As far as the mass-media goes, Muslim's aren't very visible in the western media unless it's political posturing or they fit the description from dispatch. I don't really know what I could reasonably expect from that 60% to be more 'visible' or why we would expect such. I anticipate the 60% supporting secularism is substantially higher than the previous generations, and this change should be acknowledged and encouraged.

By all means, it should. But we should fully expect to be denounced as Islamophobes as a direct consequence. That is just how it works.

I agree insofar as all immigration processes will have to create arbitrary standards by which immigration is approved.
However in my view to make prohibitions on minority Religious groups would only serve to further reinforce the hegemony of the dominant Religion rather than protect the public from extremist faith.

Maybe we should consider whether Islam is a religion then. I see very solid grounds for concluding that it is not. For one thing, it does not respect freedom of religion.

 

[libre]

Maybe we should consider whether Islam is a religion then. I see very solid grounds for concluding that it is not. For one thing, it does not respect freedom of religion.

Trying to disqualify Islam from the category of religion because they do not respect freedom of Religion doesn't really make sense to me. Were the Christian's during the dark ages not really Religious?

I think when one gets to the point where they are denying that a Religion is a Religion, that person is the one not respecting freedom of Religion and laying groundwork for the denial of that right for the allegedly non-religious.

As for whether or not Muslims support freedom of Religion, do you have any stats to support that?
This report by Pew Research Center indicates generally positive results with a few caveats: Chapter 2: Religion and Politics.

 

[icehorse]

As for whether or not Muslims support freedom of Religion, do you have any stats to support that?

Have you read their book? Do you take Muslims at their word?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I agree that many in the Western left have become sympathetic to Islam. But I think it's because they have taken on board the simplistic "oppressed vs. oppressor" worldview, ugh.

Or maybe it's because many of them actually know Muslims, go to school with them, work with them, etc. and they can see for themselves that Muslims are just people. It's like, I don't particularly like Islam. I can recognize that Islam has some worthwhile things in it but also problematic things. However, my city has a large Muslim population of immigrants from the Middle East and Somalia, as well as some Americans who have converted. They're not causing any problems here. A lot of them are my coworkers. Even when I was in elementary and we had a mentoring program, my mentor was a Pakistani college student. But America tends to be better at assimilating immigrants than Europe is.

 

[libre]

Do you take Muslims at their word?

I generally assume good faith from most people. 'Muslims' aren't conspiring in an organized lie to conceal their real views.
I think research on the opinions of Religious communities today are more more valid than the Religious texts themselves, as I do not believe most Christian's today support slavery or other such barbarities.

 

[Laika]

I agree that many in the Western left have become sympathetic to Islam. But I think it's because they have taken on board the simplistic "oppressed vs. oppressor" worldview, ugh.



In many parts of Europe, Muslim immigrants have been causing an outsized amount of trouble, independent of having political parties.

I should add that (Communist) China is using re-education camps and human rights abuses against the Uyghur Muslim minority. It’s the “Stalinist” approach to Islam of forced secularisation as previously used in Central Asia, Afghanistan and Eastern Europe.

Not good.

 

[Viker]

My country is based upon the principle of jus sanguinis.
That is, citizenship is based upon the right of the blood: the citizenship, nationality are a reflex of people's DNA.
In fact, if a Brazilian citizen demonstrates that they have Italian DNA, they can claim Italian citizenship. And they can obtain it very easily.
Is that racism?

It most certainly is racism. Perfectly defined racism.

 

[icehorse]

I generally assume good faith from most people. 'Muslims' aren't conspiring in an organized lie to conceal their real views.
I think research on the opinions of Religious communities today are more more valid than the Religious texts themselves, as I do not believe most Christian's today support slavery or other such barbarities.

Muslims (and Islam), tend to be far more resistant to reform than other religions. There are hundreds of millions of Islamists in the world. They are telling us that they want Sharia, they don't have to keep it a secret - we just can't seem to bring ourselves to believe them.

Maybe it's soft bigotry, I don't know, but I think we should take them at their word.

 

[icehorse]

I should add that (Communist) China is using re-education camps and human rights abuses against the Uyghur Muslim minority. It’s the “Stalinist” approach to Islam of forced secularisation as previously used in Central Asia, Afghanistan and Eastern Europe.

Not good.

Not good, but it seems either like a separate topic or a false dilemma.

 

[Viker]

It's not discrimination if there is not mutuality and mutual respect.
Meaning: if the country of origin doesn't treat all religions equally.

It's still discrimination. Immigrants are leaving their country of origin so a country of origin should not matter.

 

[icehorse]

Or maybe it's because many of them actually know Muslims, go to school with them, work with them, etc. and they can see for themselves that Muslims are just people. It's like, I don't particularly like Islam. I can recognize that Islam has some worthwhile things in it but also problematic things. However, my city has a large Muslim population of immigrants from the Middle East and Somalia, as well as some Americans who have converted. They're not causing any problems here. A lot of them are my coworkers. Even when I was in elementary and we had a mentoring program, my mentor was a Pakistani college student. But America tends to be better at assimilating immigrants than Europe is.

there is a tendency with any minority group to be well behaved until they reach a certain critical mass. This critical mass is happening across Europe, I think it's still quite rare in the US. Perhaps in Dearborn MI?

 

[Viker]

Muslims (and Islam), tend to be far more resistant to reform than other religions. There are hundreds of millions of Islamists in the world. They are telling us that they want Sharia, they don't have to keep it a secret - we just can't seem to bring ourselves to believe them.

Maybe it's soft bigotry, I don't know, but I think we should take them at their word.

I'm just not concerned about shari'a in my own country. There's bigger stronger fish to clean and fry here. I hate the idea of theocracy and religious based nationalism in general.

 

[icehorse]

Maybe we should consider whether Islam is a religion then. I see very solid grounds for concluding that it is not. For one thing, it does not respect freedom of religion.

And @libre -

I agree. It seems to me that Islam is more a totalitarian ideology than a religion. Not perfectly so, but largely.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

there is a tendency with any minority group to be well behaved until they reach a certain critical mass.

And what exactly do you mean by that?

This critical mass is happening across Europe, I think it's still quite rare in the US. Perhaps in Dearborn MI?

I think Europe has a lot of issues that are unique to its situation. The US doesn't have the exact same issues and circumstances.

What about Dearborn? Do you live in Dearborn? NYC actually has the nation's highest population of Muslims.
From Wikipedia:
"The Muslim population in the New York metropolitan area approximates 1.5 million, the largest metropolitan Muslim population in the Western hemisphere."

 

[libre]

I should add that (Communist) China is using re-education camps and human rights abuses against the Uyghur Muslim minority. It’s the “Stalinist” approach to Islam of forced secularisation as previously used in Central Asia, Afghanistan and Eastern Europe.

Not good.

This is true. Part of the reason why I find the anti-Islam bent disturbs me is that the politicians pushing it are more interested in positioning Muslims as a threat instead of standing up for poor treatment of Muslims around the world such as China, Myanmar or dare I suggest Israel/Palestine and other cases of US interference such as in the former occupation in Afghanistan.

It seems to me that the stances on state-atheism of the Communist block changed substantially in the late 40s. While the rest of the world hailed the attempts of many to liberalize the Soviet Union, Religious Freedoms for many minority religions suffered.

 

[icehorse]

This is true. Part of the reason why I find the anti-Islam bent disturbs me is that the politicians pushing it are more interested in positioning Muslims as a threat instead of standing up for poor treatment of Muslims around the world such as China, Myanmar or dare I suggest Israel/Palestine and other cases of US interference such as in the former occupation in Afghanistan.

It seems to me that the stances on state-atheism of the Communist block changed substantially in the late 40s. While the rest of the world hailed the attempts of many to liberalize the Soviet Union, Religious Freedoms for many minority religions suffered.

And what hundreds of millions of Muslims around the world tell us is that they want Sharia. Sharia is misogynistic, homophobic, anti-semitic, tribalistic, and of course theocratic. Most of these hundreds of millions of Islamists are not "oppressed".