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Is Baha'u'llah true or false Prophet?

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I asked one of the Bahais in Cut Knife to chime in here, but there's no guarantee he will do so.
The NSA letter is so indicative of so many things wrong with Baha'i. It's very congratulatory about the many small things the various communities have been up to. I thought the building of a bench was particularly indicative of this false positivity that runs through much of Bahai'speak. I mean, it's all nice and all that, but it's certainly not very realistic. It's reminiscent of those 'positive parenting' parents I used to run into when I taught. Ne'er a realistic word, just positivity through and through. It gives the kid a sense he can do absolutely no wrong. I know one such poor child that is now stuck in jail for assault and battery, his parents couldn't bail him out of that. But having read quite a bit now, here and elsewhere, it;s easy to see exaggeration, and false bragging when it's there.

Of course then it goes on with the lament about how most of the people who attended these events were guests, and not actually Baha'i, and again with the encouragement to convert convert convert, as if converting is somehow magically going to make you a better person. It's a problem for many ex-Baha'i, the fact that there is little action outside of finding new converts. What about some real charity, some counseling, sone rejoice at celebrating with others without the addendum for conversion. But it's all about the next big 8 year plan, following all the ___ year plans that have come before, failing miserably,yet again awaiting patiently the onset of thousands into this big deal.

The real deal about Cut Knife certainly wouldn't be Cut knife itself, but the several surrounding First Nations communities in the area, and the fact that Baha'i (and other missionary religions preceding them) have had some success converting on the First Nations, if only because the First nations peoples are a troubled lot, and may be looking for anything with any semblance of hope. But it won't last. They're slowly finding their roots, thank goodness. Perhaps the Baha'i sould do something more charitable like have a major food bank drive and give it to the impoversished areas of North Battleford. I won't be holding my breath on that one.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Back when I was investigating the exaggeration of number of adherents, I researched it locally. The official website of Bahai Canada listed about 50 Baha'i localities here in western Canada, where I live. I hadn't even heard of some of them even though I live here. Several were incredibly small, and one (at least) was a ghost town. In the exuberance to exaggerate they couldn't even research it, and must have used an old map. Oh well. When you click on the contact for each place, it just takes you back to the Canadiian headquarters and the basic information.

Here in my city of 1.3 million there is one small center. Not sure how many people go to feasts. But it certainly proved to me that the 'myth' about Baha'i exaggeration is no myth at all. Nothing would surprise me any more, and in fairness, i don't think the ordinary adherent on the street would even know this. Wiki has the world population at 6 million, but I seriously doubt if it approaches even a million. Anyone can edit wiki.

So if they have no problem distorting this 'truth' what else can they distort?
In Bahai Faith, anyone can mistake. Only, the Bab, Bahaullah, Abdulbaha, Shoghi Effendi, and the universal house of justice are infallible. So, even if, just if, some Bahais exaggerated as you believe, it does not disprove the claim of divinity.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
In Bahai Faith, anyone can mistake. Only, the Bab, Bahaullah, Abdulbaha, Shoghi Effendi, and the universal house of justice are infallible. So, even if, just if, some Bahais exaggerated as you believe, it does not disprove the claim of divinity.
In my readings, those guys were the kings of exaggeration, and the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. They set that example, so what does one expect?

But at least, for the Baha'i, some folks are trying to discuss this trend honestly, like in this discussion. Why the growth is so small in believers in America USA? : bahai

It's better than just being all glowing all the time, and pretending no problems exist. Certainly, unless some attitudes change, Baha'i will just disappear, like so many before it.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
The website you cut and pasted from is a Muslim website riddled with misinformation, distortions and outright lies. Its hard to know where to begin. One of the principles of the Baha’i Faith is independent investigation of reality. That means objectively examining with a pure heart the facts for oneself and not relying on the opinions of others.

Go ahead and criticise the Baha’i Faith. I’ve no problem with that. But if you have no reliable information from which to base your criticism, what are you hoping to achieve?

A brief history of this religion.
Baabism and Baha’ism are a movement that originated from a Shi’ah sect called the Shaykhiyyah in 1260 AH/ 1844 CE, under the protection of Russian, Jewish and English colonialism, with the aim of corrupting Islamic belief and dividing the Muslims and diverting them from their basic aims
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
In my readings, those guys were the kings of exaggeration, and the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. They set that example, so what does one expect?

But at least, for the Baha'i, some folks are trying to discuss this trend honestly, like in this discussion. Why the growth is so small in believers in America USA? : bahai

It's better than just being all glowing all the time, and pretending no problems exist. Certainly, unless some attitudes change, Baha'i will just disappear, like so many before it.
Even if, Bahais completely disappear, it does not change who Bahaullah is. God is God.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
They are the same Spirit. Christ is Baha'u'llah and Baha'u'llah is Christ. The Son has returned as the Glory of God, the Father.

The flesh amounts to not a thing. It is the Spirit that gives life.

Regards Tony
I know you guys have a quote that tells how this is different than reincarnation, but if it is the same exact spirit than it is that spirit, which is the true reality of that person, coming into another fleshly body that is different. Or, in the spiritual world the Spirit of Jesus and the Spirit of Baha'u'llah are different but equal spirits?
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
I know you guys have a quote that tells how this is different than reincarnation, but if it is the same exact spirit than it is that spirit, which is the true reality of that person, coming into another fleshly body that is different. Or, in the spiritual world the Spirit of Jesus and the Spirit of Baha'u'llah are different but equal spirits?

It is a question I can not answer, but I have thoughts about it over the years. The Tablet of the Universe opens many more doors full of ideas.

It is the Twofold station and Baha'u'llah explains it this way;

"The Bearers of the Trust of God are made manifest unto the peoples of the earth as the Exponents of a new Cause and the Revealers of a new Message. Inasmuch as these Birds of the celestial Throne are all sent down from the heaven of the Will of God, and as they all arise to proclaim His irresistible Faith, they, therefore, are regarded as one soul and the same person. For they all drink from the one Cup of the love of God, and all partake of the fruit of the same Tree of Oneness....These Manifestations of God have each a twofold station. One is the station of pure abstraction and essential unity. In this respect, if thou callest them all by one name, and dost ascribe to them the same attributes, thou hast not erred from the truth. Even as He hath revealed: “No distinction do We make between any of His Messengers.” For they, one and all, summon the people of the earth to acknowledge the unity of God, and herald unto them the Kawthar of an infinite grace and bounty......

.....The other station is the station of distinction, and pertaineth to the world of creation, and to the limitations thereof. In this respect, each Manifestation of God hath a distinct individuality, a definitely prescribed mission, a predestined revelation, and specially designated limitations. Each one of them is known by a different name, is characterized by a special attribute, fulfils a definite mission, and is entrusted with a particular Revelation. Even as He saith: “Some of the Apostles We have caused to excel the others. To some God hath spoken, some He hath raised and exalted. And to Jesus, Son of Mary, We gave manifest signs, and We strengthened Him with the Holy Spirit.”

Thus it appears this world and its limitations, prevents us from seeing this Oneness. Could it also be a key to what was the significance of the story of the virgin birth of Jesus as well?

Regards Tony
 
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InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
I know you guys have a quote that tells how this is different than reincarnation, but if it is the same exact spirit than it is that spirit, which is the true reality of that person, coming into another fleshly body that is different. Or, in the spiritual world the Spirit of Jesus and the Spirit of Baha'u'llah are different but equal spirits?
Abdulbaha says, everyone has their own individuality. He also says, Jesus, Moses or Bahaullah have different individual souls, who are different from each other, but like Clean Mirrors. Then God, who is like the Sun, His image, or attributes are manifested in each Mirror. The Mirror is the individual Soul of Manifestation. In my understanding, the Spirit is the Soul and the Attributes of God, both together.
For example if you have two individual mirrors, both showing the same Sun, you can say, they are the same image. That image manifested in the Mirror, is, like, the Attributes of God manifested in the Soul. So, Bahaullah and Jesus are the same Spirit, but two different souls. Bahai description of Spirit is not how generally understood ghost. Spirit is not ghost. It does not occupy space. It is not limited to space either.

The image of the Sun does not exist, unless there is a Mirror showing the image. Likewise, if the individual Soul of a Manifestation did not exist, the image of God would not exist, because, the image can only appear in the Mirror. When that image appears in the Soul, then that is called Spirit of God. This is why, in Islam, Christ is called, Spirit of God. So, even though, Jesus is Spirit of God, and Bahaullah is also Spirit of God, yet, there is only One God, and One spirit of God. So, how can there be only One God, but Jesus and Bahaullah are both the Spirit of God? Only if, what is meant by Spirit of God, is, the image manifested in two Mirrors.
In my understanding, if the Manifestation did not exist, the Spirit of God did not appear either. Just as without Mirror, the Image cannot appear anywhere.
This is why, Jesus says, I am in you, and you are in me, and I am in the Father. Jesus is speaking here about their image. Otherwise, how can they be in Jesus, or in the Father?
So, in this sense, it is reincarnation. But those who believe in reincarnation, usually think of Spirit, as a 'thing', which comes and goes. It comes to body, then it leaves the body, whereas in Bahai Faith, Spirit is like an image, which appears in each individual mirror, rather than entering a person's body. Now, we are all mirrors, but some mirrors are cleaner than others. So, if a person who lives today, his mirror of soul has the same cleanliness as a person who lived 1000 years ago, both have same spirit, because both show same image in their mirror. It is like that person is returned again, after 1000 years. This is why in Bible, is written, all will return again, even those who pierced His body. It means, those who pierced the Bab, are those pierced Jesus, who returned. Their attributes are the same, their behaviour the same.
 
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spirit_of_dawn

Active Member
The website you cut and pasted from is a Muslim website riddled with misinformation, distortions and outright lies.

Looks like another Muslims source....

:tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy:

Shoot the Messenger!

:facepalm:

In Shia Islam this is how people are supposed to react when someone speaks:

"Look at what he is saying not who is saying it" (Imam Ali)

Much better than the Baha'i attitude that dismisses anything against them that comes from a Muslim simply because that person is a Muslim.
 
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Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
The website you cut and pasted from is a Muslim website riddled with misinformation, distortions and outright lies.

Alternative POVs are just that, alternate POVs. Just because it gives alternative theories doesn't mean necessarily that it's all a bunch of lies. I, for one, am glad such narratives exist, as then when you investigate, at least the other side of the story is available. This isn't a Baha'i website, after all, where you can censor anything with a differing POV.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Alternative POVs are just that, alternate POVs. Just because it gives alternative theories doesn't mean necessarily that it's all a bunch of lies. I, for one, am glad such narratives exist, as then when you investigate, at least the other side of the story is available. This isn't a Baha'i website, after all, where you can censor anything with a differing POV.
Of course you are glad for such narratives. I never said it was all a bunch of lies so why put words in my mouth? Are you implying a differing POV from someone who is anti-Baha’i is something to be glad for but a POV from a Baha’i is a form of censorship? Freedom of speech is a right in Western culture we all benefit from but can take for granted. With freedom comes responsibility, to be fair and balanced.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
:tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy:

Shoot the Messenger!

:facepalm:

In Shia Islam this is how people are supposed to react when someone speaks:

"Look at what he is saying not who is saying it" (Imam Ali)

Much better than the Baha'i attitude that dismisses anything against them that comes from a Muslim simply because that person is a Muslim.

I agree with Imam Ali’s words. Wouldn’t it be nice if Shi’a Muslims in Shi’a Muslim countries such as Iran extended that view to non-Muslims and Baha’is.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
:tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy:

Shoot the Messenger!

:facepalm:

In Shia Islam this is how people are supposed to react when someone speaks:

"Look at what he is saying not who is saying it" (Imam Ali)

Much better than the Baha'i attitude that dismisses anything against them that comes from a Muslim simply because that person is a Muslim.

It is not that simple. It is dismissed, as it is aimed at giving false and misleading information. The Baha'i of Iran still face this daily.

Thus it is the information that is being refuted. It is simple, you can quote the authorised translations and see if the same conclusions are the result.

Regards Tony
 

spirit_of_dawn

Active Member
Looks like another Muslims source....
It is not that simple. It is dismissed, as it is aimed at giving false and misleading information. The Baha'i of Iran still face this daily.

Thus it is the information that is being refuted. It is simple, you can quote the authorised translations and see if the same conclusions are the result.

Regards Tony

If they give false information then each wrong and misleading quote must be examined independently. Baha'is never do that instead they just discredit the messenger on the basis that he/she is a Muslim.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
If they give false information then each wrong and misleading quote must be examined independently. Baha'is never do that instead they just discredit the messenger on the basis that he/she is a Muslim.

It is naught to do with the Faith you have chosen.

It has all to do with Justice. Muhammad called us to all be upholders of Justice.

Thus there are the translations aimed at deception and there are the authorised translations that show what the Message of Baha'u'llah is saying.

We have pointed out that most of the translations you have used to prove a point are not correct. It is not an easy thing to translate the Writings of Baha'u'llah and direct literal translations can be very misleading. @Sen McGlinn is able to explain why this is so.

Thus we can go back and forward with a person posting false translations and us the true translations, or the poster could choose to find the noticeable difference for themselves.

That is what we offer to you. Regards Tony
 

spirit_of_dawn

Active Member
It is naught to do with the Faith you have chosen.

It has all to do with Justice. Muhammad called us to all be upholders of Justice.

Thus there are the translations aimed at deception and there are the authorised translations that show what the Message of Baha'u'llah is saying.

We have pointed out that most of the translations you have used to prove a point are not correct. It is not an easy thing to translate the Writings of Baha'u'llah and direct literal translations can be very misleading. @Sen McGlinn is able to explain why this is so.

Thus we can go back and forward with a person posting false translations and us the true translations, or the poster could choose to find the noticeable difference for themselves.

That is what we offer to you. Regards Tony

Ok then, so basically if a translation is not inline with what you have been indoctrinated into believing is Baha'ism, then it must be opposed and if it is inline with what you have been indoctrinated then it is correct. I'm sorry but this approach will not lead you to the truth, it will only lead you into believing what you already believed in.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
If we take it for granted that true, genuine Abrahamic Prophets do exist, then I don't think anyone has a better claim than Bahahullah. His teachings were certainly better than those of most others.

It is a big "if", though.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Ok then, so basically if a translation is not inline with what you have been indoctrinated into believing is Baha'ism, then it must be opposed and if it is inline with what you have been indoctrinated then it is correct. I'm sorry but this approach will not lead you to the truth, it will only lead you into believing what you already believed in.

True Justice and faith is not built that shallow.

The balance is the Truth and the truth does set us free.

After 34 years searching and weighing all that is said, it becomes a lot easier to see that Gods Love is unconstrained. If there is a deception offered, it becomes very soon apparent, as man has but a short blink of time to live, mans deception soon fades away and God renews His guidance.

Regards Tony
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
If we take it for granted that true, genuine Abrahamic Prophets do exist, then I don't think anyone has a better claim than Bahahullah. His teachings were certainly better than those of most others.

It is a big "if", though.

No kidding, on the big 'if'.
 
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