They are the same Spirit. Christ is Baha'u'llah and Baha'u'llah is Christ. The Son has returned as the Glory of God, the Father.
The flesh amounts to not a thing. It is the Spirit that gives life.
Regards Tony
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Is Baha'u'llah true or false Prophet?
- Thread starter Faithofchristian
- Start date
They are the same Spirit. Christ is Baha'u'llah and Baha'u'llah is Christ. The Son has returned as the Glory of God, the Father.
The flesh amounts to not a thing. It is the Spirit that gives life.
Regards Tony
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
I see we both have agreement on that.
spirit_of_dawn
Active Member
Without a shadow of doubt,
Baha'u'llah is neither a Manifestation of God, nor the one promised by all scriptures.
Regards Spirit_of_dawn
See how your word against mine works? This is a debate forum where you are supposed to provide arguments, not make passive claims using strong terminology.
Baha'u'llah stands by the Message He gave from God. All can read this Message.
It needs not me or you or anyone to argue it's merits.
We will find it is the elixer, or we will not.
Being aware there is a Message, it then becomes the responsibility of the person who was made aware to search if it is Truth.
Regards Tony
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
After giving it some thought,
Let's see, your saying that Baha'u'llah being interpreted means the Glory of God.
Is this right.
And Christ Jesus will come with the Glory of God at his second coming to earth.
Is this right.
That is correct.
Jesus who was the Christ (Annointed One), is the First Message and will be the Last Message. The same Holy spirit has spoken through all Prophets and Messengers.
Names can become a barrier, it is the spirit that gives life and it is the Spirit, that was Jesus the Christ, we look for in all things.
Regards Tony
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
Ok, now I understand what you been saying, now it makes alot of sense.
Yes as a Christian Christ Jesus is the Annointed one, the Messiah.
Matthew 25:31--"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory"
In the book of Revelation 5:6--"And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth"
Notice the seven spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Ok,
Now we find out what those seven spirits are in Revelation 5:12--"Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing"
Here we find the seven spirits are
1-- power
2-- riches
3-- wisdom
4-- strength
5-- honour
6-- glory
7-- blessing
Revelation 5:6
Revelation 5:12
Notice in Matthew 24:30--"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory"
Notice that when Christ Jesus returns he come with two of those seven spirits that are found in Revelation 5:12.
( Power) ( Glory)
1-- power
2-- riches
3-- wisdom
4-- strength
5-- honour
6-- glory
7-- blessing
Revelation 5:6
Revelation 5:12
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Yes, and that is a spiritual power, not a worldly power. Jesus said, His kingdom is not in this world.
Dale
Member
This is usually what happens when you claim to be a Prophet and then you start claiming to have God in you and then you start claiming to be God and then your the creator of everything.
This happened with Jim Jones and David Koresh and Father divine and others, they all start off claiming prophet hood then claiming to be Jesus returning and then claiming to be the Father God.
Here are a few quotations where Baha'ullah declares his divinity.
1. “There is no God but I the Honored , the Wise”.
– Kitab al Aqdas pg 43
2.”Accept whatever is commanded by Baha (himself) the Lord of Eternity”.
-kitab al aqdas pg 144
3.”All praise is for you O Baha'ullah, the Creator of existence”.
-Al mubeen pg 34
4.”Obey the commands of your Elevated, Splendorous God, Baha'ullah
-Al Mubeen pg 190
5.”You Most beneficent Lord, Baha'ullah”,
Al Mubeen 297
The truth is revealed!. In all the above verses Baha'ullah is clearly claiming divinity for himself here.
The Bahais even turn towards the shrine of Baha'ullah when they offer prayers. Just listen to this statement in the Badaae ul Asaar of Abdul Baha-
6. Baha'ullah is unique, Incomparable. It is necessary for everyone to turn towards Baha'ullah in his prayers.
Even more revealing is this statement of Baha'ullah in a letter to his son Abdul Baha-
7. “This s a letter from Allah, the Honoured and the Wise (Baha'ullah) to Allah the Gracious, the Aware (Abdul Baha).”
“A lot of requests and supplications from my followers reached ‘My’ Arsh wherein they have asked many questions from me. Thereupon Baha has revealed Epistles upon them. there was a request for revealing the Ahkam (Laws). But due to some wisdom, I withheld My pen and did not accede to their requests. Having received innumerable such requests from them, I have now acceded to their requests so that their hearts may remain alive”.
1. In Aqdas, page 8, Baha’u’llah says, “We have sent down all the Messengers and we have revealed all the Books.”
2. In Istaqaaraat, page 34, Baha’u’llah writes, “The Master of Eternity lies in prison” (referring to his imprisonment and confinement).
3. In his Tablets, Page 217, Baha'ullah writes, “All, save me are created from my command.”
You pray to him, he calls himself Allah, God forbid and may Allah forgive me for even typing this blasphemy, and he's the creator.
Sounds just like the rest of these false prophets, that later on claim to be Jesus or God himself.
There cannot be any prophet after Muhammad S.A.W.S
The Holy Prophet (pbuh) said, “The tribe of Israel was guided by prophets. When a prophet passed away, another prophet succeeded him. But no prophet will come after me; only caliphs will succeed me.”
(Ref: Sahih Bukhari, Kitabe‘ Manaqeb)
The Holy Prophet (pbuh) said, “My position in relation to the prophets who came before me can be explained by the following example: A man erected a building and adorned this edifice with great beauty, but he left an empty niche, in the corner where just one brick was missing. People looked around the building and marveled at its beauty, but wondered why a brick was missing from that niche? I am like unto that one missing brick and I am the last in the line of the Prophets.”
(Ref: Bukhari – Kitabe’ Manaqeb, Muslim,Tirmidhi, Musnad Ahmad, Tirmizi, Babu Khatimin-Nabiyyin, Musnad Abu Dawud Tayalisi)
The Holy Prophet (pbuh) said, “The chain of prophethood and messengership has been terminated in me. Now there will not be any new prophet or messenger.”
(Tirmizi, Musnad Ahmed Ibne Hambal)
Baha’u’llah was already prophesied by the prophet Muhammad in the Hadith, calling him a false prophet.
Abu Hurairah narrated that Muhammad said;
"The Hour will not be established until two big groups fight each other whereupon there will be a great number of casualties on both sides and they will be following one and the same religious doctrine, until about 30 dajjals appear, and each of them will claim that he is Allah's Apostle..."
Thanks again for posting. I'm enjoying a study of the ancient scriptures.
I can see why you would consider Isaiah 60 to be in relation to Islam as there are multiple references to the Arabian Peninsula and surrounding regions with mention of Midian, Ephah, Sheba, and Kedah. However there's also mention of travelling by ship from Tarshish and possible air travel with Isaiah 60:8 which of course has nothing to do with the Arabian Peninsula. Remember the Jewish scriptures relate to the Jewish people not the Arabs or Muslims. Isaiah 60 follows on from Isaiah 59:20-21 that speaks of the redemption of the Jewish people after a time of God's retribution and severe tribulation for the Jewish, most likely the second exile.
The second Jewish exile spanned from the 1st century AD beginning with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD until the 19th century with the return in significant numbers of the Jewish people to their homeland. This is a fulfilment of the time of the gentiles in Luke 21:24. The majority of this exile witnessed the Holy Land of the Jewish people occupied by Muslims. Isaiah speaks of rejoicing with the end of that exile. So people return en masse via land, sea, and even air. The mention of the Arabian peninsula may be an allusion to the Caliphates occupying their Holy Land that God promised Abraham.
Of course we all know that Baha'u'llah was exiled to Palestine in the nineteenth century and with the development of the Baha'i Faith world centre in Haifa and Akka, this has coincided with the Return of the Jewish people from the second exile. The verses also have allusions to peace and prosperity in the world. With the exception of the prosperity that came through the Islamic Golden age that ignited the European renaissance, Islam has not brought peace or prosperity to the Jewish people, the world, nor do they appear likely to in the future. I know many Muslims see it differently. So although the Jewish people haven't accepted Baha'u'llah as their redeemer, the Baha'is coexist harmoniously with the Jews in Israel. We've never promoted anti-Semitism, risen a sword against them or anyone else, nor will we. Any acceptance of Baha'u'llah will be through peace and free will, not force and coercion.
I agree that Jerusalem is no longer a city of peace, but the Holy City will be located in the Holy Land of Israel. Mecca is for Muslims only and appears an impossible new mount Zion for the Jews as they are not permitted there. Baha'is believe the new mount Zion is Mt Carmel. The new Jerusalem is a metaphor for God's word in the city of men's hearts. It is the new law brought by Baha'u'llah for a future world civilisation. Besides the locality is spelt out in Isaiah 35:2 which is also Elijah's mountain whose return was first John the Baptist, then the Bab.
The context of Psalm 84:6 refers to a pilgrimage route for Jews going up to the temple of Yahweh in Jerusalem. Links to Mecca seem tenuous but go ahead.
Exactly the same argument can be used for the Kings that will go to the mountain of the lord (Mt Carmel) in Isaiah 2:2-5. Note the association with peace. The suggestion that Muslims can't be wicked fools and everyone else might be doesn't sound too peaceful.
I don't see what you are seeing with Psalms 84:6.
OTOH I'm a Baha'i, not a Christian. I agree that Muhammad is a Messenger of God and the Holy Quran is the Word of God, I don't accept the Muslims interpretation that He was the final prophet. For me Baha'u'llah fits as the Messenger of God for today. I can't see Islam bringing peace and unity to the world, especially with its record of violence and persecution towards the Baha'is. While I agree that Muhammad was a true prophet, the Islamic dispensation like that of the Christians has had its day.
I'll post further when I find time.
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I am enjoying your posts. Hopefully next year, time will be on my side to reply in more detail
Regards Tony
I am enjoying your posts. Hopefully next year, time will be on my side to reply in more detail
Regards Tony
Thank you Tony. I'm enjoying the opportunity to bring together some important ideas. Your pilgrimage will be a great experience, I'm sure.
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
As Christ Jesus said In the book of
Luke 7:28--"For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he"
Therefore John the Baptist is the last of the great holy prophets that will be born of women.
There is no more holy prophets to come after the death of John the Baptist.
How does this work, how is he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than John the Baptist.
How does this work?
Can you explain, Jesus is God the Father, Then how can the Father be greater than Jesus, if Jesus is God the Father.
How does this work ?
Christ Jesus foretold in his own words in the book of Mark 13:23--"But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things"
Now as to why would there be any need for God to send any more prophets, Seeing that Jesus has already foretold all things.
This is why Jesus has already foretold all things, so that if anyone comes to claim to be a prophet, they are a false prophet. Because Jesus has already foretold all things.
All a person has to do is point at Jesus and say, Jesus has already foretold all things, So who are you, your a false prophet,
Jesus has already foretold all things throughout his word in the bible/scriptures.
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This is really disingeneous to compare the peaceful Baha'is to the murderous cults of David Koresh and Jim Jones. This is the type of rheotoric that inspires the hate and persecution the Baha'is have become all too acquainted with.
Of course, Christians regard Jesus as the incarnation of God. Many Hindus regard Krishna as an incarnation of Vishnu (God). Is Christianity and Hinduism a murderous dangerous cult because of such claims? No.
If you did some research you would find that Baha'is see Baha'u'llah, Jesus, Krishna and even Muhammad as Manifestations of God. It is through these exalted beings that God reveals Himself through humanity. Is the Quran not the Word of God, and Muhammad the choosen vassal through which God chose to reveal Himself. Did Muhammad Himself not have outstanding qualities and attracted hearts and transformed the lives of His followers? Was He no empowered by God to defeat His enemies and to united the tribes of the Arabian Peninsula?
So in the sense that God speaks through His Manifestation and reveals Himself as God, the Manifestation is reflecting God like a perfect mirror reflects the sun. In the sense that the refinement of Divine attributes can be supremely reflected in the Manifestation, then the Manifestation of God becomes 'Godly'. However the mirror is not the sun and the Manifstation of God is not God.
Baha'u'llah explains this in the Kitab-i-Iqan.
Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God!” He verily speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His name and His attributes, are made manifest in the world. Thus, He hath revealed: “Those shafts were God’s, not Thine!” And also He saith: “In truth, they who plighted fealty unto thee, really plighted that fealty unto God.” And were any of them to voice the utterance: “I am the Messenger of God,” He also speaketh the truth, the indubitable truth. Even as He saith: “Muḥammad is not the father of any man among you, but He is the Messenger of God.”
Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 161-200
Yes, and that is a spiritual power, not a worldly power. Jesus said, His kingdom is not in this world.
What a beautiful shiny building and what colourful lush gardens!
Is it a holy place for pilgrimage?
Is it in this world or the next?
In regards the Divinity of the Manifestations of God,Baha'u'llah as further elaborated.
And since there can be no tie of direct intercourse to bind the one true God with His creation, and no resemblance whatever can exist between the transient and the Eternal, the contingent and the Absolute, He hath ordained that in every age and dispensation a pure and stainless Soul be made manifest in the kingdoms of earth and heaven. Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testifieth the tradition: “Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, 67 and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is.” And in like manner, the words: “Arise, O Muḥammad, for lo, the Lover and the Beloved are joined together and made one in Thee.” He similarly saith: “There is no distinction whatsoever between Thee and Them, except that They are Thy Servants.” The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” “Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?” These Essences of Detachment, these resplendent Realities are the channels of God’s all-pervasive grace. Led by the light of unfailing guidance, and invested with supreme sovereignty, They are commissioned to use the inspiration of Their words, the effusions of Their infallible grace and the sanctifying breeze of Their Revelation for the cleansing of every longing heart and receptive spirit from the dross and dust of earthly cares and limitations. Then, and only then, will the Trust of God, latent in the reality of man, emerge, as resplendent as the rising Orb of Divine Revelation, from behind the veil of concealment, and implant the ensign of its revealed glory upon the summits of men’s hearts.
The source of this ptolemic against the Baha'i Faith
Was Baha’ullah a Prophet or Imposter??!
baha
The first two verses are from the Kitab-i-Aqdas. It is God who speaks through Baha'u'llah.
The remaining verses I can not find references for. My experience of Muslim websites that attack the Baha'i Faith is they are often poorly referenced, introduce material that is not from the Baha'i writings, verses have been altered, or a translation is provided that clearly conflicts the intent of the Baha'i writings.
Looks like another Muslims source....
https://www.quora.com/Where-in-the-writings-of-Bahaullah-does-he-claim-to-be-a-prophet
I will not be trying to authenticate any of this as it has the same problems as above.
How would you feel if I started posting words that didn't belong to Muhammad and claimed they were?
How about if I relied on a translation of Quran verses that was provided by someone who was prepared to distort what Muhammad was trying to say in order to discredit Him?
And since there can be no tie of direct intercourse to bind the one true God with His creation, and no resemblance whatever can exist between the transient and the Eternal, the contingent and the Absolute, He hath ordained that in every age and dispensation a pure and stainless Soul be made manifest in the kingdoms of earth and heaven. Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testifieth the tradition: “Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, 67 and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is.” And in like manner, the words: “Arise, O Muḥammad, for lo, the Lover and the Beloved are joined together and made one in Thee.” He similarly saith: “There is no distinction whatsoever between Thee and Them, except that They are Thy Servants.” The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” “Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?” These Essences of Detachment, these resplendent Realities are the channels of God’s all-pervasive grace. Led by the light of unfailing guidance, and invested with supreme sovereignty, They are commissioned to use the inspiration of Their words, the effusions of Their infallible grace and the sanctifying breeze of Their Revelation for the cleansing of every longing heart and receptive spirit from the dross and dust of earthly cares and limitations. Then, and only then, will the Trust of God, latent in the reality of man, emerge, as resplendent as the rising Orb of Divine Revelation, from behind the veil of concealment, and implant the ensign of its revealed glory upon the summits of men’s hearts.
The source of this ptolemic against the Baha'i Faith
Was Baha’ullah a Prophet or Imposter??!
baha
The first two verses are from the Kitab-i-Aqdas. It is God who speaks through Baha'u'llah.
The remaining verses I can not find references for. My experience of Muslim websites that attack the Baha'i Faith is they are often poorly referenced, introduce material that is not from the Baha'i writings, verses have been altered, or a translation is provided that clearly conflicts the intent of the Baha'i writings.
Looks like another Muslims source....
https://www.quora.com/Where-in-the-writings-of-Bahaullah-does-he-claim-to-be-a-prophet
I will not be trying to authenticate any of this as it has the same problems as above.
How would you feel if I started posting words that didn't belong to Muhammad and claimed they were?
How about if I relied on a translation of Quran verses that was provided by someone who was prepared to distort what Muhammad was trying to say in order to discredit Him?
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
How would that prove that the Bab or Bahaullah were after worldly power and glory?
The Holy Places are made beautiful and pleasant for all people who visit. It has no benefit to the Bab or Bahaullah, who, in their life time, were in prison.
Sen McGlinn
Member
Gallivan itself has a population of zero, hence, no Bahais. But 100 Bahais gathered in Cut Knife, 11km away from Gallivan, for a Holy Day. And Cut Knife does not appear in the list of Bahai communities in Prairies that you sourced. So the likely explanation is that Gallivan is the name of the Bahai community district, which includes Cut Knife and some other towns, which between them could produce 100 Bahais for a special event.
Here's the quote about 100 Bahais in Cut Knife:
http://bahaicanada.bahai.ca/message-from-the-national-spiritual-assembly-20-november-2017/
and the list of Bahai communities in Prairies:
Prairies | Bahá’í Community of Canada
Yes, I have that list. I still think it's all exaggerated for effect. Not much will change my mind, but you're welcome to your views. Next time I go through Cut Knife I'll stop and chat it up with the old farmers in the local coffee shop. Those guys know everything. Nowhere in the article did it say the people gathered were all Baha'i: it just said 100 people gathered. In small towns like that, it's not hard to pull 100 people together. many family or community reunions could do that. My old community gets over 100 for any pot luck dinner. So it means nothng, yet the NSA goes on and on as if it were a Baha'i winning the prime minister's office. If there's anything they're good at , it's exaggeration.
Sen McGlinn
Member
I asked one of the Bahais in Cut Knife to chime in here, but there's no guarantee he will do so.