Is Baha'u'llah true or false Prophet?

[InvestigateTruth]

So what religion today is speaking the truth about God other than the Baha'is? Islam? Judaism? How about Buddhism or Hinduism? Then there is Christianity.

All religions teach the truth. But as time is passed, their message is forgotten, distorted, misinterpreted.

The main Protestant sects teach that Jesus is God. Baha'is say that is not true, so those Christians are teaching a lie, in the opinion of the Baha'is, yet they keep getting people to believe.

Bahais believe if Jesus had said, He is God, He surely spoke the truth:

"Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God!” He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His name and His attributes, are made manifest in the world. "
Bahahllah

The difference is, Bahais believe God has manifested Himself in many, including Jesus.

 

[Vinayaka]

All religions teach the truth. But as time is passed, their message is forgotten, distorted, misinterpreted.

Contradictory and insulting.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Bahai's trust the numbers put out by Baha'i sources, mainly the UHJ. It's infallible after all. I doubt that the total world population even hits a million. It's also a really aging demographic. I don't think many have actually checked things out. Why bother, when you can just blindly trust the UHJ? Mauritius was another personal example, besides western Canada where I live. The claim by Baha'is is about 23 000 Mauritians. I can honestly say I never saw one single sign of Baha'i when I was there. Just nada. If I can find the link to the comparison chart of census versus Bahai claims, I'll link it. There is a wiki section on 'criticisms of the Bahai faith as well. It's important to note that most criticisms don't come from anti-Bahai, but just ordinary folk like you and me observing discrepancies. I'm officially neutral, but I've never liked deception of any kind, coming from anyone.

I think many do know, it's so obvious, but saying anything at all just invites argument and criticism.

Criticism of the Bahá'í Faith - Wikipedia

It is interesting to examine the material provided from this link:

There has been criticism of the Bahá'í Faith that has centered on what critics see as exaggerated statements concerning numbers of believers.

The table below highlights some differences between Bahá'í-cited data and Census data.

Nation Census data Bahá'í-cited data
Barbados 178[49] 3,337[50]
Belize 202[51][52] 7,742[50]
Canada 18,945[53] 30,000[54]; 46,826[50]
Guyana 500[55] 11,787[50]
India 4,572[56][57] 1,897,651[50]; over 2,000,000 [58]
Mauritius 639[59] 23,742[50]
Norway 1,015[60] 2,737[50]

Criticism of the Bahá'í Faith - Wikipedia

There are Baha'is in practically every country in the world. The two exceptions would be the Vatican City and North Korea for two very different reasons. So assuming these are the worst discrepancies of the 200 or so countries where Baha'i reside, the two Western countries (Norway and Canada) we know are likely to have reliable census data, the discrepancies are not major. For example, in Canada, the number of Baha'is in the census data is about 63% of the official Baha'i figures. If Canada and Norway represent the biggest gaps between census data and official Baha'i numbers then it appears likely the census in less developed countries are not so good at detecting accurately the number of actual Baha'is.

The country with the biggest gap between census and Baha'i data is of course India. We have 5 Baha'is in my community with connections with India. 2 used to live in India, 2 used to live in Bangladesh, and one is a Hindu from Malaysia who became a Baha'i in his teens. They all think the Baha'i statistics are closer to the truth than the census data though no one I have talked to has any idea why the census data records such a small number of Baha'is.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Contradictory and insulting.

In the Abrahamic line it is proven History that we are to learn from. It is one path to learn humility, that we can and do get it wrong and often.

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

All religions teach the truth. But as time is passed, their message is forgotten, distorted, misinterpreted.

Truth isn't eternal?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Truth isn't eternal?

There is the Eternal Truths and the changing Laws for the age we live.

People do forget elements of both these aspects and choose thier own path.

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

There is the Eternal Truths and the changing Laws for the age we live.

If all religions teach their individual truths (sense why there are a variety of religions) that are eternal, by what means can a person distort their unchanging and eternal truths?

If one believes in polytheism and the other monotheism, these two truths are eternal apart from their believers. Are you judging their authenticity of truths based on who you feel doesn't follow correctly the truths they hold close?

In other words, what makes each religion different in their own accord when they distorted their own truths which each (polytheism and monotheism) are eternal in their own right?

These are questions.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Has this preceptor given any interesting talks on spiritual philosophy or was it only religious speeches?

Bahá'í Reference Library - Paris Talks, Pages 173-176

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

All religions teach the truth. But as time is passed, their message is forgotten, distorted, misinterpreted.

Bahais believe if Jesus had said, He is God, He surely spoke the truth:

"Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God!” He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His name and His attributes, are made manifest in the world. "
Bahahllah

The difference is, Bahais believe God has manifested Himself in many, including Jesus.

This sounds a lot like the avatar concept in Vaishnavism. Baha'is are confusing. On one hand, they say it is a purely unitarian monotheistic religion and than on the other hand, I see many things posted by the Baha'is on here that clearly lead one to think that Baha'u'llah is viewed as an incarnation of God or at least semi-divine. There's a very worshipful attitude towards him, including capitalizing his pronouns, which is a practice usually reserved for the pronouns of a deity. Very strange and confusing.

 

[Dawnofhope]

This sounds a lot like the avatar concept in Vaishnavism. Baha'is are confusing. On one hand, they say it is a purely unitarian monotheistic religion and than on the other hand, I see many things posted by the Baha'is on here that clearly lead one to think that Baha'u'llah is viewed as an incarnation of God or at least semi-divine. There's a very worshipful attitude towards him, including capitalizing his pronouns, which is a practice usually reserved for the pronouns of a deity. Very strange and confusing.

The relationshion between Jesus the Son and God the Father on one hand is straight forward, on another complex to the extent its a Divine mystery.

Baha'is use the term Manifestation of God. A Manifestation of God has similarities with the concept of incarnation of God used by Christians to describe Christ and Vaishnavite Hindus to describe Krishna. However there are important differences.

A useful analogy is that of a mirror which perfectly reflects the light of God. The sun that's reflected in the mirror may declare Himself to be God. In that sense it appears the mirror is God, whereas in reality the mirror is not God.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

The relationshion between Jesus the Son and God the Father on one hand is straight forward, on another complex to the extent its a Divine mystery.

Baha'is use the term Manifestation of God. A Manifestation of God has similarities with the concept of incarnation of God used by Christians to describe Christ and Vaishnavite Hindus to describe Krishna. However there are important differences.

A useful analogy is that of a mirror which perfectly reflects the light of God. The sun that's reflected in the mirror may declare Himself to be God. In that sense it appears the mirror is God, whereas in reality the mirror is not God.

This all sounds confused. Jesus is viewed as God in regards to the Incarnation and Krishna is viewed as an avatar of Vishnu in Vaishnavism. I think this sounds confusing because Baha'i is mixing together so many different things that contradict each other. You have its basis in Shia Islam where it gets its idea of strict monotheism from, but then it tries to mix in the Hindu avatar and Christian Trinitarian Incarnation concept.

 

[Dawnofhope]

This all sounds confused. Jesus is viewed as God in regards to the Incarnation and Krishna is viewed as an avatar of Vishnu in Vaishnavism. I think this sounds confusing because Baha'i is mixing together so many different things that contradict each other. You have its basis in Shia Islam where it gets its idea of strict monotheism from, but then it tries to mix in the Hindu avatar and Christian Trinitarian Incarnation concept.

The Baha'i Faith has its own theology based on the Teachings of Baha'u'llah whom we believe brought a Revelation of God. One of the most common misunderstandings of the Baha'i Faith is it cherry picks the parts of different religions and then tries to amalgamate them into an eclectic mish mash of different ideas and theologies. It doesn't.

In regards the manifestations of God concept these links may be helpful if you are interested. .

Manifestations of God | What Bahá’ís Believe

Manifestation of God - Wikipedia

 

[TransmutingSoul]

If all religions teach their individual truths (sense why there are a variety of religions) that are eternal, by what means can a person distort their unchanging and eternal truths?

If one believes in polytheism and the other monotheism, these two truths are eternal apart from their believers. Are you judging their authenticity of truths based on who you feel doesn't follow correctly the truths they hold close?

In other words, what makes each religion different in their own accord when they distorted their own truths which each (polytheism and monotheism) are eternal in their own right?

These are questions.

They are good questions. Firstly I do not see we get to pick what are eternal Truths, they are given and become the foundations we live by. Good example is doing for others, as you would have them do to you.

Thus we see the eternal truths are the virtues that unite us, as they are part of all of Gods given Faiths and are also practiced by those that have not accepted that the source of those virtues is God.

I see the Laws of the age are given to sort out the true believers from those that pay lip service. Change is always a challenge.

I see the remainder, that divides us in any way, prevents us from implementing the eternal truths, or following the laws of the age, are all of our own making.

Regards Tony

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

The Baha'i Faith has its own theology based on the Teachings of Baha'u'llah whom we believe brought a Revelation of God. One of the most common misunderstandings of the Baha'i Faith is it cherry picks the parts of different religions and then tries to amalgamate them into an eclectic mish mash of different ideas and theologies. It doesn't.

In regards the manifestations of God concept these links may be helpful if you are interested. .

Manifestations of God | What Bahá’ís Believe

Manifestation of God - Wikipedia

Sorry but those links don't really do anything to change my mind or clear things up.

From the Wikipedia article:
"The Manifestations of God are seen to represent a level of existence which is an intermediary between God and humans. Bahá'u'lláh, the founder of the Bahá'í Faith, explained that at one extreme the Manifestations of God are humble servants of God and at the other extreme they claim to speak with the voice of God, and manifest his attributes to humanity. They may at times emphasize their humanity, and at other times proclaim their divinity. These stations are complementary rather than mutually exclusive.[1]

The Manifestations of God are believed to possess capacities that do not exist in humans, and this difference is not a difference in degree but a difference in kind. The Manifestations of God are not seen to be simply great thinkers or philosophers who have a better understanding than others, but that, by their nature, they are inherently superior to the average human.[6] Thus, the Manifestations of God are special beings, having a unique relationship to God as they have been sent by God from the spiritual world as an instrument of divine revelation. They are understood to have existed in the spiritual world prior to their physical birth in this life. They are also seen to have innate, divinely revealed knowledge and absolute knowledge of the physical world.[6] According to `Abdu'l-Bahá, the son and successor of the founder of the Bahá'í Faith, the Manifestations of God must be distinguished above any other person in every aspect and qualification, in order that they can effectively train and educate people.[7]"

Obviously this not talking about just a person who is very holy and the attributes of God shine forth from their character and behavior (like a Saint, for instance). What the Baha'i religion is plainly saying is that they are some sort of divine beings, innately different from other people. It's sounding a lot like an avatar, like I mentioned before.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Obviously this not talking about just a person who is very holy and the attributes of God shine forth from their character and behavior (like a Saint, for instance). What the Baha'i religion is plainly saying is that they are some sort of divine beings, innately different from other people. It's sounding a lot like an avatar, like I mentioned before.

That is how I do see it. There are 5 levels of Spirit. Vegetable, Animal, Human, Spirit of Faith and Holy Spirit. The Mesengers, avatars are Manifestations of the Holy Spirit.

To me, this is what the Bible is saying with the Virgin Birth. That though they are born from the womb of their human mother, they are actually born of the Holy Spirit.

We are born of the human spirit and must connect with the holy spirit via the spirit of faith.

I see we must also understand that the body of the Messenger, that we seen in this realm of creation, shares its humanity with us. Christ says I am a man like you. Then Christ tells us the Flesh amounts to nothing, it is the spirit that gives life.

This also shows us we can not be a direct Mirror of God, we need faith in the Messenger/Avatar to polish our mirror

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The Baha'i Faith has its own theology based on the Teachings of Baha'u'llah whom we believe brought a Revelation of God. One of the most common misunderstandings of the Baha'i Faith is it cherry picks the parts of different religions and then tries to amalgamate them into an eclectic mish mash of different ideas and theologies. It doesn't.

In regards the manifestations of God concept these links may be helpful if you are interested. .

Manifestations of God | What Bahá’ís Believe

Manifestation of God - Wikipedia

Not for debate, but another word for cherry picking is eclectic and synchronizing multiple beliefs together.

At one time you mention bahai has their own theology (of course) and only bahai needs believe in X.

Then, on the other hand, you say Hindu, Buddha, jesus, muhammad, and krishna are rays of the sun-the sun being one and the god. You mentioned these followers don't follow their correct teachings and then even have different interpretations of their teachings (jesus is god for example) to reflect the one god many ray theology.

Color me purple, but isn't this by its very nature cherry picking beliefs that are not distorted, putting them as rays of one sun, and disregarding the other beliefs as distorted even though respected in their own rights?

I know the phrase cherry picking is derogative but looking at the definition, it's exactly what it is. Religion and spirituality aside. Just the definition and your theology.

Are we (@Saint Frankenstein ) missing something?

When I read this was more, what? Huh? Clarification?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Not for debate, but another word for cherry picking is eclectic and synchronizing multiple beliefs together.

At one time you mention bahai has their own theology (of course) and only bahai needs believe in X.

Then, on the other hand, you say Hindu, Buddha, jesus, muhammad, and krishna are rays of the sun-the sun being one and the god. You mentioned these followers don't follow their correct teachings and then even have different interpretations of their teachings (jesus is god for example) to reflect the one god many ray theology.

Color me purple, but isn't this by its very nature cherry picking beliefs that are not distorted, putting them as rays of one sun, and disregarding the other beliefs as distorted even though respected in their own rights?

I know the phrase cherry picking is derogative but looking at the definition, it's exactly what it is. Religion and spirituality aside. Just the definition and your theology.

Are we (@Saint Frankenstein ) and I missing something?

When I read this was more, what? Huh? Clarification?

Simply I see Baha'u'llah has given the keys to see all those scriptures in a different way. He has shown how a writing people have taken to mean a certain thing, can indeed mean another thing entirely.

Thus it does not Cherry Pick, it redefines.

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

They are good questions. Firstly I do not see we get to pick what are eternal Truths, they are given and become the foundations we live by. Good example is doing for others, as you would have them do to you.

Thus we see the eternal truths are the virtues that unite us, as they are part of all of Gods given Faiths and are also practiced by those that have not accepted that the source of those virtues is God.

I see the Laws of the age are given to sort out the true believers from those that pay lip service. Change is always a challenge.

I see the remainder, that divides us in any way, prevents us from implementing the eternal truths, or following the laws of the age, are all of our own making.

Regards Tony

Hm. Okay. There are two eternal truths (there are hundreds but just using two). Monotheism and polytheism (MP).


These are not virtues but distinct structures that help define both mono and poly theistic religions. They would be contradicting each other by definition if they were virtues of the same truth (rays of one sun).

Both MP are eternal truths. They are, by definition, not the same.

Are believers in either monotheism and polytheism distorting their own faiths even though, by their (MP) nature, are eternal and not changeable?

Polytheism and monotheism are eternal truths. Are these believers distorting these truths from the ultimate truth of abrahamic monotheism?

In other words, are believers misguided from the real god by distorting their own eternal truths of multiple gods?

Can't figure how to phrase it right.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Simply I see Baha'u'llah has given the keys to see all those scriptures in a different way. He has shown how a writing people have taken to mean a certain thing, can indeed mean another thing entirely.

Thus it does not Cherry Pick, it redefines.

Regards Tony

Cherry picking is a derogatory word. By definition your theology:

1. Has a universalist theology
2. Believes in multiple faiths
3. disregard parts of the faith that are not aligned with god (polytheism for example)

And then

4. Take the rest from each individual faith to make them rays of one god.

You are taking things that agree with your faith and putting them under one god. That's very distinct in bahai scripture. It's part of its common pet phrase.

It's cherry picking. I don't know how you are missing that. Bahaullah is taking those parts he believes is under god and dismiss those beliefs that contradict the nature of one god.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Hm. Okay. There are two eternal truths (there are hundreds but just using two). Monotheism and polytheism (MP).


These are not virtues but distinct structures that help define both mono and poly theistic religions. They would be contradicting each other by definition if they were virtues of the same truth (rays of one sun).

Both MP are eternal truths. They are, by definition, not the same.

Are believers in either monotheism and polytheism distorting their own faiths even though, by their (MP) nature, are eternal and not changeable?

Polytheism and monotheism are eternal truths. Are these believers distorting these truths from the ultimate truth of abrahamic monotheism?

In other words, are believers misguided from the real god by distorting their own eternal truths of multiple gods?

Can't figure how to phrase it right.

I see that Monotheism and Polytheism are examples of things that divide us. Degrees of man made ideas have crept into what was taught. Unraveling this now, what was original teachings and what is not, is now near impossible.

I see the eternal aspect will surface, it usually now takes times of trouble to see it on a bigger scale. The will to help those suffering, the will to do good for others etc

Regards Tony