Is Baha'u'llah true or false Prophet?

[Unveiled Artist]

Baha’is have beliefs about Krishna, Buddha, Jesus and Muhammad that will contradict some of the beliefs held by followers of each of those religions. For example, we believe Buddha was a Manifestation of God. Many Buddhists in the West such as yourself are not theists. So a Baha’i may believe one thing and a Buddhist something else. That’s simply the nature of religious diversity where we have different points of view. The most important thing is respect for our diversity. I have no desire to convince you that you are wrong and I am right. We simply have differing beliefs about who Buddha is.



The reason Baha’is believe Buddha to be a Manifestation of God is based on Bahá’u’lláh’s Revelation, not what Buddhists believe. You could call us cherry picking if the belief was based on Buddhist belief. It’s not, rather based on what Bahá’u’lláh taught. Do you see the difference?

Yes. Though I was addressing the nature of cherry picking. Its a derogatory term, but by definition, universal eclectic beliefs have forms of cherry picking.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Yes. Distortion happened in many ways, but you understood my view correctly.

In my view, it is not our own versus their own eternal truth. Eternal truth never belongs to anyone, except for God. Only God is the owner of His Religion, and Revelations. On the other side, there is the whole humanity, who in various ways reacted to the Revelations of God in every Age.

Thank you.


All I can say, really, is I disagree and it is rude. I do understand the logic behind it though. Thanks.

 

[Marcion]

Yes. Though I was addressing the nature of cherry picking. Its a derogatory term, but by definition, universal eclectic beliefs have forms of cherry picking.

But these forms may differ considerably.

You can cherry pick while twisting the religious teachings of others in the direction of your own (the founder's) way of thinking.

Or you (the founder) can cherry pick just from the practical side (the spiritual practices) of another path while understanding on a deeper level their spiritual effects on the practitioner (which has nothing to do with so-called 'belief').

I'm not sure whether the founder of the Bahai movement has also cherry picked actual spiritual or religious practices.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Thank you.


All I can say, really, is I disagree and it is rude. I do understand the logic behind it though. Thanks.

Off course you would disagree. You do not believe that there really is a God, therefore you cannot agree that, all Religions were revealed by the God.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Off course you would disagree. You do not believe that there really is a God, therefore you cannot agree that, all Religions were revealed by the God.

They're not. My belief in God does not change the knowledge, experience, and basics of other beliefs. That's like saying two and two is five and when I disagree you say I don't like math so of course you disagree. Religion follows the same logic.

How do religions without creators come from creators? Are followers redefining their beliefs to where they follow a creator even though their religion says otherwise?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

It's a simple yes or no question if someone is God.

It is not simple. Bahaullah has two different stations, as He says:

"When I contemplate, O my God, the relationship that bindeth me to Thee, I am moved to proclaim to all created things ‘verily I am God!’; and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!”

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

It is not simple. Bahaullah has two different stations, as He says:

"When I contemplate, O my God, the relationship that bindeth me to Thee, I am moved to proclaim to all created things ‘verily I am God!’; and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!”

Well I think he should make up his mind. He is either God or he is clay. He can't be both the Creator and the created at the same time.

 

[Marcion]

Off course you would disagree. You do not believe that there really is a God, therefore you cannot agree that, all Religions were revealed by the God.

What made you think that I 'believe that there really is no God'?
I just don't believe in the multi-religious myth of so-called revelations, that's all.
But I also believe everyone should be free to believe in myths, even the propounders of new religions.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

What made you think that I 'believe that there really is no God'?
I just don't believe in the multi-religious myth of so-called revelations, that's all.
But I also believe everyone should be free to believe in myths, even the propounders of new religions.

That was a reply to @Unveiled Artist.
But as regards to belief in God, and not any of His Messengers, I have to tell you, to me, it is an absurd belief. If the prophets and messengers were not really revealing His words, How can God allow so many men talk, on his behalf, claiming to be His messengers, claiming to have commandments from Him, demanding everyone to obey their laws, and yet God never comes and tells us, those Men are liars, and are not His messengers? How can God allow majority of humanity to be mislead by false prophets, and yet He does not make Humanity who is His creation aware? Is God powerless to talk to everyone clearly, or is He careless? Moreover, it was always prophets and God manifestations who taught about God. You are imagining a God who creates humanity, and never , ever clearly spoke to them, whereas, I believe, He manifested Himself among humanity many times, and the last time He manifested Himself was in the person of Bahaullah.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That was a reply to @Unveiled Artist.
But as regards to belief in God, and not any of His Messengers, I have to tell you, to me, it is an absurd belief. If the prophets and messengers were not really revealing His words, How can God allow so many men talk, on his behalf, claiming to be His messengers, claiming to have commandments from Him, demanding everyone to obey their laws, and yet God never comes and tells us, those Men are liars, and are not His messengers? How can God allow majority of humanity to be mislead by false prophets, and yet He does not make Humanity who is His creation aware? Is God powerless to talk to everyone clearly, or is He careless? Moreover, it was always prophets and God manifestations who taught about God. You are imagining a God who creates humanity, and never , ever clearly spoke to them, whereas, I believe, He manifested Himself among humanity many times, and the last time He manifested Himself was in the person of Bahaullah.

I think it's more god talks to people directly not to be prophets and spread the word but to form a relationship with their creator and/or savior. Communication in one form or a other helps bond a relationship between two or more people. Man may need prophets to understand gods message to all but not when he is talking to people individually to know god personally.

As for who god manifest into, I'm not/wouldn't be a trinity theology believer. I don't see the break of of god with everything and everyone.

People have -personal and/or communal- relationships with god, but I never heard of other religions promote their relationships as christians, muslims, and bahai. Excluding a couple I came across that weren't abrahamic.

Direct communication with god involves personal/communal relationships bonds. It's not specific to being a prophet. It just means god talks to many believers one on one. Prophets didn't just zombie out to help others. God also talked to them and they formed a bond of mutual trust.

The difference is prophets received a mission, the rest of believers didn't. Believers misbehavior because of what they felt god says doesn't invalidate many do hear gods voice directly and correctly without need to promote, be a prophets and tell the world their belief.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Well I think he should make up his mind. He is either God or he is clay. He can't be both the Creator and the created at the same time.

Are you saying Allah cannot place a mirror to reflect His Light to humanity?

Allah is not the mirror, but by looking at the Mirror we see naught but Allah.

Thus the Messenger is that chosen mirror. They are born of the Holy Spirit. This makes the metephor of the virgin birth in the bible a little more clearer.

Though born in this world of clay, they are not of this world, they are the perfect reflection of Allah.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I think it's more god talks to people directly not to be prophets and spread the word but to form a relationship with their creator and/or savior. Communication in one form or a other helps bond a relationship between two or more people. Man may need prophets to understand gods message to all but not when he is talking to people individually to know god personally.

Those that commit crimes in the name of God would then use that as a legitimate defence. 'God told me to do it'. One could not reject that as fact, as it has been said by you, that God speaks to us all directly.

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Those that commit crimes in the name of God would then use that as a legitimate defence. 'God told me to do it'. One could not reject that as fact, as it has been said by you, that God speaks to us all directly.

Regards Tony

That has nothing to do with another person's relationship with god. One person's relationship with god/communication isnt invalidated by someone else's actions.

I dont see how the two relate?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That has nothing to do with another person's relationship with god. One person's relationship with god/communication isnt invalidated by someone else's actions.

I dont see how the two relate?

By what standard are you judging another's actions? How do we find a balance, if all beleive they are guided by God?

There is no way to say that those who choose to persecute others, in the name of God, are not wrong in those actions.

There has to be a set standard. If not we have anarchy resulting.

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Thank you for asking questions.

Those that commit crimes in the name of God would then use that as a legitimate defence. 'God told me to do it'. One could not reject that as fact, as it has been said by you, that God speaks to us all directly.

But this isnt related to god speaking to people directly to form a relationship with him. I understand the use of messagers if god wants that prophet to complete a mission. That is what prophets do. Those who are not prophets can speak to god directly. They just dont have a mission to where one is an intimedary between a layman and god.

By what standard are you judging another's actions? How do we find a balance, if all beleive they are guided by God?

If scriptures of these different faiths (outside Hinduism and Buddhism) are true, I would assume the standard would be scripture. The relationship with go directly is the voice of god via scripture. Biblical scripture says one has a relationship with god not his messengers. I noticed trinitarians and bahai doesnt see it that way. Each person have their own standards of interpretation. Thats why there are so many disagreements.

There is no way to say that those who choose to persecute others, in the name of God, are not wrong in those actions. There has to be a set standard. If not we have anarchy resulting.

Many abrahamics feel the standard comes from their scripture because, in christianity, scripture Is god's actual voice. Its not a prophets standard, but god's. Trinitarians follow god through christ. They dont see him as a manifestation nor prophet. He is god.

Relationship with god is when god talks to the believer directly. How they interpret that for the good or worse doesnt affect or invalidate another persons communication.

Believers need prophets when following the mission of a messanger. They dont need it when they build a relationship with god directly. Two very different intents therefore one needing prophets and the other direct communication.

 

[Marcion]

That was a reply to @Unveiled Artist.
But as regards to belief in God, and not any of His Messengers, I have to tell you, to me, it is an absurd belief. If the prophets and messengers were not really revealing His words, How can God allow so many men talk, on his behalf, claiming to be His messengers, claiming to have commandments from Him, demanding everyone to obey their laws, and yet God never comes and tells us, those Men are liars, and are not His messengers? How can God allow majority of humanity to be mislead by false prophets, and yet He does not make Humanity who is His creation aware? Is God powerless to talk to everyone clearly, or is He careless? Moreover, it was always prophets and God manifestations who taught about God. You are imagining a God who creates humanity, and never , ever clearly spoke to them, whereas, I believe, He manifested Himself among humanity many times, and the last time He manifested Himself was in the person of Bahaullah.

You are a believer in prophets and messengers or rather, you believe that their messages are like undistorted truthfulness coming from God.
In that your movement is very much like that of the Yehova's Witnesses.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Believers need prophets when following the mission of a messanger. They dont need it when they build a relationship with god directly. Two very different intents therefore one needing prophets and the other direct communication.

I thank you for the further clarification.

I can not see any viable lasting order in this, it appears to me you are explaining a picture of what the world is now and to me that is but a confusion of thought.

I see a global foundation is required, or the world will continue as it is now heading.

Regards Tony

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

It is not simple. Bahaullah has two different stations, as He says:

"When I contemplate, O my God, the relationship that bindeth me to Thee, I am moved to proclaim to all created things ‘verily I am God!’; and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!”

Yes, it is. "Is Jesus God? Yes." See how simple that is. You're just obsfucating the obvious with word salad.

 

[Marcion]

You're just obfuscating the obvious with word salad.

This seems to be a characteristic of the Bahai, stemming from the way in which their preceptor expressed himself.

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

Are you saying Allah cannot place a mirror to reflect His Light to humanity?

Allah is not the mirror, but by looking at the Mirror we see naught but Allah.

Thus the Messenger is that chosen mirror. They are born of the Holy Spirit. This makes the metephor of the virgin birth in the bible a little more clearer.

Though born in this world of clay, they are not of this world, they are the perfect reflection of Allah.

Regards Tony

Ah Yes the old mirror fallacy. So Baha'u'llah is a mirror and when we hear him claiming that he is God we are simply hearing the reflection of God's words echoing back to us through the mirror. Ok, fair enough... So we shouldn't expect the mirror (Baha'u'llah) to say: "I the mirror am God," or "I the lonely imprisoned mirror am God". But unfortunately, that is exactly what Bah'u'llah claims:

"There is no God but me the lonely, the imprisoned." (Bahā’u’llāh, Āthār-i Qalam-i A`lā (Canada: Mu’assisiyi Ma`ārif Bahā’ī, 1996), vol. 1, no. 39, p. 226.)​

Or maybe you expect us to believe in a weak and lonely deity who is imprisoned somewhere.