Is Baha'u'llah true or false Prophet?

[TransmutingSoul]

Cherry picking is a derogatory word. By definition your theology:

1. Has a universalist theology
2. Believes in multiple faiths
3. disregard parts of the faith that are not aligned with god (polytheism for example)

And then

4. Take the rest from each individual faith to make them rays of one god.

You are taking things that agree with your faith and putting them under one god. That's very distinct in bahai scripture. It's part of its common pet phrase.

It's cherry picking. I don't know how you are missing that. Bahaullah is taking those parts he believes is under god and dismiss those beliefs that contradict the nature of one god.

Its ok unveiled, you did not want to debate it and I am happy to just say we do not need to define this. Lets just be good to each other.

I will remember you when I visit the shrines of my faith and think all the best for you.

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Its ok unveiled, you did not want to debate it and I am happy to just say we do not need to define this. Lets just be good to each other.

I will remember you when I visit the shrines of my faith and think all the best for you.

Regards Tony

Em. Another way of saying I agree to disagree?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Simply I see Baha'u'llah has given the keys to see all those scriptures in a different way. He has shown how a writing people have taken to mean a certain thing, can indeed mean another thing entirely.

Thus it does not Cherry Pick, it redefines.

Regards Tony

It is a derogatory word. I wouldn't use it personally.

How is it not cherry picking?

By definition it says: choosing for what is available.

You have the Hindu faith. Hindus believe in god. They so believe in polytheism. You say polytheism causes division but their belief in God does not.

That's cherry picking what correlate with your faith and choose to disregard what you feel is division.

It's a bahai teaching in all bahaullah scripture. I just wouldn't use that word. Eclecticism maybe.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Em. Another way of saying I agree to disagree?

That was saying do not worry about it, its not important. As together in the past we have covered it many times over and we did not and still do not see it the same way.

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That was saying do not worry about it, its not important. As together in the past we have covered it many times over and we did not and still do not see it the same way.

Regards Tony

I saw your answer too late. I'm about to go jogging. Bahaullah speaks about cherry picking. It's a derogatory word so I would use eclecticism. For example, disregarding polytheism but keeping other hindus beliefs. By definition, that's taking what correlates with your faith and disregard what cause division. I don't know how you can't see that but it's in bahai scripture.

Maybe because it's negative?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

For example, disregarding polytheism

Not disregarding, as I offered above, but redefining what was being offered in the original scriptures, that lead people to believe that there was more than one God.

Regards Tony

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Cherry picking is a derogatory word. By definition your theology:

1. Has a universalist theology
2. Believes in multiple faiths
3. disregard parts of the faith that are not aligned with god (polytheism for example)

And then

4. Take the rest from each individual faith to make them rays of one god.

You are taking things that agree with your faith and putting them under one god. That's very distinct in bahai scripture. It's part of its common pet phrase.

It's cherry picking. I don't know how you are missing that. Bahaullah is taking those parts he believes is under god and dismiss those beliefs that contradict the nature of one god.

In Bahai view, Hinduism, Islam, Christianity,..etc were are revealed by God. As time passed, followers of those faiths added their own interpretations and imaginations. Now, Babaullah is revealing the truth again, therefore you see many similarities between His teachings and previous Religions. Those parts of other religions which you see contradictory with Bahaullah, are the parts, which were added later by ordinary people, based on their own imaginations and interpretations.. They were not part of the original teachings of previous Revelations.
Yes, Revelation of God, is eternal truth. It is like the everlasting Sun. But when clouds come in between, they prevent the Light. Those clouds are vain imaginations, and superstitions which comes from idle fancy of people.
Bahaullah never studied Religions, such as Christianity, Hinduism, Budhism...or even Islam. How can you imagine He has cherry picked from them? Cherry picking requires, someone to study many things, and then try to take parts of each and put together. When did Bahaullah study all those Religions, and what evidence you can find to prove it, other than making a claim?!

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Sorry but those links don't really do anything to change my mind or clear things up.

From the Wikipedia article:
"The Manifestations of God are seen to represent a level of existence which is an intermediary between God and humans. Bahá'u'lláh, the founder of the Bahá'í Faith, explained that at one extreme the Manifestations of God are humble servants of God and at the other extreme they claim to speak with the voice of God, and manifest his attributes to humanity. They may at times emphasize their humanity, and at other times proclaim their divinity. These stations are complementary rather than mutually exclusive.[1]

The Manifestations of God are believed to possess capacities that do not exist in humans, and this difference is not a difference in degree but a difference in kind. The Manifestations of God are not seen to be simply great thinkers or philosophers who have a better understanding than others, but that, by their nature, they are inherently superior to the average human.[6] Thus, the Manifestations of God are special beings, having a unique relationship to God as they have been sent by God from the spiritual world as an instrument of divine revelation. They are understood to have existed in the spiritual world prior to their physical birth in this life. They are also seen to have innate, divinely revealed knowledge and absolute knowledge of the physical world.[6] According to `Abdu'l-Bahá, the son and successor of the founder of the Bahá'í Faith, the Manifestations of God must be distinguished above any other person in every aspect and qualification, in order that they can effectively train and educate people.[7]"

Obviously this not talking about just a person who is very holy and the attributes of God shine forth from their character and behavior (like a Saint, for instance). What the Baha'i religion is plainly saying is that they are some sort of divine beings, innately different from other people. It's sounding a lot like an avatar, like I mentioned before.

So, if someone has 100$, he cannot say he has 1$?
When God manifests Himself, He speaks to each people according to their capacity. To some, He declares that He is God. To some, He declares He is, Messenger of God, and Servant of God.
Did not Jesus allude to Himself as a Prophet? And in another instance, as servant of Father, and another instance as Son of God, and in another instance as One with the Father?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

So, if someone has 100$, he cannot say he has 1$?
When God manifests Himself, He speaks to each people according to their capacity. To some, He declares that He is God. To some, He declares He is, Messenger of God, and Servant of God.
Did not Jesus allude to Himself as a Prophet? And in another instance, as servant of Father, and another instance as Son of God, and in another instance as One with the Father?

I have no idea what you're trying to say. That Baha'u'llah is God?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I have no idea what you're trying to say. That Baha'u'llah is God?

If you are willing to accept, He was Manifestation of God on earth. You need to distinguish between physical body and individuality of Bahaullah and the Spirit of God who was Manifested in Him. The physical body and individuality of Bahaullah is not God, but the Servant and Messenger of God.
Christians think of Spirit as a thing that moves, comes and goes. In Bahai view, Spirit and Spirit of God does not move, and is not bounded to a place or time. It may be likened to Manifestation of the Image of the Sun in a Mirror. The image did not move and go inside the mirror. The Spirit of God, its attributes, and powers are manifested from Bahaullah. That was God. And now that, Bahaullahs physical Body has passed away, His Soul in the World of God, is Reflecting the attributes and powers of God into our world. Though He physically is not present, He has all the powers in His hand to inspire the world, or send down any trials and difficulties or awards, according to His Will and Wisdom. There is no other God, and the only way, the Will of God is expressed to humanity, is through Bahaullah, who is Spirit of God.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

If you are willing to accept, He was Manifestation of God on earth. You need to distinguish between physical body and individuality of Bahaullah and the Spirit of God who was Manifested in Him. The physical body and individuality of Bahaullah is not God, but the Servant and Messenger of God.
Christians think of Spirit as a thing that moves, comes and goes. In Bahai view, Spirit and Spirit of God does not move, and is not bounded to a place or time. It may be likened to Manifestation of the Image of the Sun in a Mirror. The image did not move and go inside the mirror. The Spirit of God, its attributes, and powers are manifested from Bahaullah. That was God. And now that, Bahaullahs physical Body has passed away, His Soul in the World of God, is Reflecting the attributes and powers of God into our world. Though He physically is not present, He has all the powers in His hand to inspire the world, or send down any trials and difficulties or awards, according to His Will and Wisdom. There is no other God, and the only way, the Will of God is expressed to humanity, is through Bahaullah, who is Spirit of God.

It's a simple yes or no question if someone is God.

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

It's a simple yes or no question if someone is God.

It's a Yes. But Baha'is will never say it outright even though Baha'u'llah would explicitly claim he was God while he was imprisoned:

"There is no God but me the lonely, the imprisoned." (Baha’u’llah, Athar-i Qalam-i A`la (Canada: Mu’assisiyi Ma`ārif Bahā’ī, 1996), vol. 1, no. 39, p. 226.)

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Not disregarding, as I offered above, but redefining what was being offered in the original scriptures, that lead people to believe that there was more than one God.

Regards Tony

You are taking what is already existing and redefining it so it coinside with your theology. In other words, you are cherry picking somethings that do not correlate with your theology and redefining it. Its a bahai thing.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

In Bahai view, Hinduism, Islam, Christianity,..etc were are revealed by God. As time passed, followers of those faiths added their own interpretations and imaginations. Now, Babaullah is revealing the truth again, therefore you see many similarities between His teachings and previous Religions. Those parts of other religions which you see contradictory with Bahaullah, are the parts, which were added later by ordinary people, based on their own imaginations and interpretations.. They were not part of the original teachings of previous Revelations.
Yes, Revelation of God, is eternal truth. It is like the everlasting Sun. But when clouds come in between, they prevent the Light. Those clouds are vain imaginations, and superstitions which comes from idle fancy of people.
Bahaullah never studied Religions, such as Christianity, Hinduism, Budhism...or even Islam. How can you imagine He has cherry picked from them? Cherry picking requires, someone to study many things, and then try to take parts of each and put together. When did Bahaullah study all those Religions, and what evidence you can find to prove it, other than making a claim?!

Would that mean that those parts of other religions that contradict with bahaullah are not part of the eternal truth because their followers distort it?

Let me ask to. Are followers true followers of their own eternal truth or are they incorrect about their own faith in respect to your own?

 

[Marcion]

Thus it does not Cherry Pick, it redefines

It is a bit like the way that Christianity tries to "redefine" Jewish teachings.

The founders of Christianity could not "redefine" Buddhism or Hinduism because they were not enough aware of the significance of those teachings nor of their future significance for global spirituality. Islam or perhaps Muhammed reinterpreted the significance of both Judaism and Christianity in his own way.

Were the founders of Christianity, Muhammed and Bahaullah qualified to reinterpret the significance of all those earlier ideologies, did they have enough of a cosmic or divine perspective to be able to do so properly? If you think along Bahai lines you will probably think the answer is 'yes', at least for the Bahaullah part.

Such aspects of ideologies are better not analysed in too much detail because that could hurt the feelings of followers of such founders.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Sorry but those links don't really do anything to change my mind or clear things up.

Obviously this not talking about just a person who is very holy and the attributes of God shine forth from their character and behavior (like a Saint, for instance). What the Baha'i religion is plainly saying is that they are some sort of divine beings, innately different from other people. It's sounding a lot like an avatar, like I mentioned before.

It’s simply book knowledge and like anything new can take a while to understand. Of course I’m not asking you to believe it to be true.

Baha’is don’t believe in reincarnation so Manifestations of God are not like avatars as Vaishnivites believe. We don’t believe Krishna to be a literal incarnation of the God Vishnu.

Contrary to Wikipedia, the life of each individual Manifestation of God begins at conception. The Wikipedia link is useful but not 100% accurate.

It's a simple yes or no question if someone is God.

No. The Manifestations of God are intermediaries between God and man. They are not simply holy or wise men. They are not literally God incarnate either.

The quote spirit of dawn has provided is not from the Baha’i writings. She is Shi’a Muslim and has an axe to grind with the Baha’is.

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

The quote spirit of dawn has provided is not from the Baha’i writings. She is Shi’a Muslim and has an axe to grind with the Baha’is.

LOL.Thanks for proving my statement about Baha'i logic in this thread: What exactly do Baha'is mean by "Independent Investigation of the Truth"?

Baha'i logic:

1- That quote doesn't exist.
2- If it exists, it's not part of Baha'i writings.
3- If it's part of Baha'i writings it doesn't have an official translation.
4- If it has an official translation, you are taking it out of context.
5- If it hasn't been taken out of context it's a metaphor.
6- If it's not a metaphor you have an axe to grind.
7- If you don't have an axe to grind you still refuse to see the light.
8- If you are seeing the light then you're beliefs are no better than ours.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

It's a Yes. But Baha'is will never say it outright even though Baha'u'llah would explicitly claim he was God while he was imprisoned:

"There is no God but me the lonely, the imprisoned." (Baha’u’llah, Athar-i Qalam-i A`la (Canada: Mu’assisiyi Ma`ārif Bahā’ī, 1996), vol. 1, no. 39, p. 226.)

That's what I suspected.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Not for debate, but another word for cherry picking is eclectic and synchronizing multiple beliefs together.

At one time you mention bahai has their own theology (of course) and only bahai needs believe in X.

Then, on the other hand, you say Hindu, Buddha, jesus, muhammad, and krishna are rays of the sun-the sun being one and the god. You mentioned these followers don't follow their correct teachings and then even have different interpretations of their teachings (jesus is god for example) to reflect the one god many ray theology.

Baha’is have beliefs about Krishna, Buddha, Jesus and Muhammad that will contradict some of the beliefs held by followers of each of those religions. For example, we believe Buddha was a Manifestation of God. Many Buddhists in the West such as yourself are not theists. So a Baha’i may believe one thing and a Buddhist something else. That’s simply the nature of religious diversity where we have different points of view. The most important thing is respect for our diversity. I have no desire to convince you that you are wrong and I am right. We simply have differing beliefs about who Buddha is.

Color me purple, but isn't this by its very nature cherry picking beliefs that are not distorted, putting them as rays of one sun, and disregarding the other beliefs as distorted even though respected in their own rights?

I know the phrase cherry picking is derogative but looking at the definition, it's exactly what it is. Religion and spirituality aside. Just the definition and your theology.

Are we (@Saint Frankenstein ) missing something?

When I read this was more, what? Huh? Clarification?

The reason Baha’is believe Buddha to be a Manifestation of God is based on Bahá’u’lláh’s Revelation, not what Buddhists believe. You could call us cherry picking if the belief was based on Buddhist belief. It’s not, rather based on what Bahá’u’lláh taught. Do you see the difference?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Would that mean that those parts of other religions that contradict with bahaullah are not part of the eternal truth because their followers distort it?

Yes. Distortion happened in many ways, but you understood my view correctly.

Let me ask to. Are followers true followers of their own eternal truth or are they incorrect about their own faith in respect to your own?

In my view, it is not our own versus their own eternal truth. Eternal truth never belongs to anyone, except for God. Only God is the owner of His Religion, and Revelations. On the other side, there is the whole humanity, who in various ways reacted to the Revelations of God in every Age.