Is Baha'u'llah true or false Prophet?

[Pete in Panama]

... It could only be resolved if people discovered the true meaning of what Christ said.

That's a good place for us to agree.

 

[CG Didymus]

That's a good place for us to agree.

So, how are people going to "discover" and "agree" on the "true" meaning of what Christ said? For Baha'is it is something very different then what most Christians believe. And, as we all know, they don't even all agree with each other.

But then we have the problem of what did Jesus really say? All we have is what the gospels say and what the non-canonical gospels say. Then, for Baha'is, you have what your prophets have said is true about the gospels.

And, as I have argued with Baha'is now for years, the gospels all have Jesus coming back to life. In Acts it says that Jesus showed himself to be alive by many proofs. Yet, Baha'is say that is not literally true... that the resurrection was a spiritual, symbolic resurrection. Many in Islam don't believe that Jesus died on the cross. Then those in Judaism don't even believe Jesus was the Messiah. How and what are we supposed to agree on? What "truth" are we supposed to discover by re-reading the Scriptures?

If a person is a believer in any other religion other than the Baha'i Faith, they are not going to agree with everything Baha'is say is true.

 

[Pete in Panama]

So, how are people going to "discover" and "agree" on the "true" meaning of what Christ said? For Baha'is it is something very different then what most Christians believe. And, as we all know, they don't even all agree with each other.

But then we have the problem of what did Jesus really say? All we have is what the gospels say and what the non-canonical gospels say. Then, for Baha'is, you have what your prophets have said is true about the gospels.

And, as I have argued with Baha'is now for years, the gospels all have Jesus coming back to life. In Acts it says that Jesus showed himself to be alive by many proofs. Yet, Baha'is say that is not literally true... that the resurrection was a spiritual, symbolic resurrection. Many in Islam don't believe that Jesus died on the cross. Then those in Judaism don't even believe Jesus was the Messiah. How and what are we supposed to agree on? What "truth" are we supposed to discover by re-reading the Scriptures?

If a person is a believer in any other religion other than the Baha'i Faith, they are not going to agree with everything Baha'is say is true.

Please tell me what your beliefs are. You've been clear about a lot of things you don't believe but conflict/contention is not what I'm very enthusiastic about. My experience is chatting w/ folks is that once we step away from the partisan sectarian diatribes that we find we actually agree on virtually everything.

Please tell me what your beliefs are. Would you call yourself a Christian? Do you prefer a universe where a Deity is not mentioned but we rather focus on living virtuous and moral lives? My goal is first to establish common ground and if you tell me what u accept I can converse far more clearly.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Is Baha'u'llah true or false Prophet?​

In my humble opinion Baha'u'llah is dumb and his followers are dumber, but not to single them out, my sentiments extend to all religious leaders and followers.

“There’s simply no polite way to tell people they’ve dedicated their lives to an illusion.”​

― Daniel Dennett

How do you tell such people that this life is the Illusion!

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

How do you tell such people that this life is the Illusion!

Regards Tony

You can tell them but they are not going to believe you.
They will have to find out for themselves and they will find out soon enough.
Only God knows exactly what they will find out after they die, but at least they will know this world is not all that exists.

 

[danieldemol]

I believe the United Nations gives us a bit of that. Obviously the nations are not united on everything.

A partially failed prophecy is a totally failed prophecy in my view, because an All-knowing God doesn't just know a "bit" of the picture.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

A partially failed prophecy is a totally failed prophecy in my view, because an All-knowing God doesn't just know a "bit" of the picture.

Firmly established does not mean fully established.

Regards Tony

 

[danieldemol]

Firmly established does not mean fully established.

Regards Tony

Abdul Baha doesn't say either of those that I know of.

'The fifth candle is the unity of nations—a unity which in this century will be securely established, causing all the peoples of the world to regard themselves as citizens of one common fatherland.'

Source: Bahá'í Reference Library - Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Pages 29-32

Nope Abdul-Baha, sorry but all peoples of the world didn't regard themselves as citizens of one fatherland due to the so called "securely established" unity of nations. The UN had only 50 countries sign its declaration in 1945

Source: Preparatory Years: UN Charter History | United Nations

And some of it's members are still engaged in proxy warfare eg US and Russia. So much for that unity being securely established in the twentieth century in my view.

 

[danieldemol]

Abdu'l-Baha identifies the most great peace with the twentieth century in one of his talks my opinion;

From the prison of ‘Akká He addressed the kings and rulers of the earth in lengthy letters, summoning them to international agreement and explicitly stating that the standard of the Most Great Peace would surely be upraised in the world.

This has come to pass. The powers of earth cannot withstand the privileges and bestowals which God has ordained for this great and glorious century.

Source: Bahá'í Reference Library - The Promulgation of Universal Peace, Pages 123-126

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Abdul Baha doesn't say either of those that I know of.

'The fifth candle is the unity of nations—a unity which in this century will be securely established, causing all the peoples of the world to regard themselves as citizens of one common fatherland.'

Source: Bahá'í Reference Library - Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Pages 29-32

Nope Abdul-Baha, sorry but all peoples of the world didn't regard themselves as citizens of one fatherland due to the so called "securely established" unity of nations. The UN had only 50 countries sign its declaration in 1945

Source: Preparatory Years: UN Charter History | United Nations

And some of it's members are still engaged in proxy warfare eg US and Russia. So much for that unity being securely established in the twentieth century in my view.

The cause begins when the seed of unity was planted, then the sapling is nurtured in the Idea of international peace, that sapling is established in the formation of the United Nations, its future is assured, but it still has a lot of growing to do before it fruits, it will fruit when tge governments give heed to all the requirements of the Lesser Peace.

Regards Tony

 

[danieldemol]

The cause begins when the seed of unity was planted, then the sapling is nurtured in the Idea of international peace, that sapling is established in the formation of the United Nations, its future is assured, but it still has a lot of growing to do before it fruits, it will fruit when tge governments give heed to all the requirements of the Lesser Peace.

Regards Tony

All this talk of saplings and fruition is notably absent from the writings and talks of Abdul-Baha in my view, he simply says the unity of nations will be securely established in the twentieth century.

How secure is a unity that involves the shedding of blood to this year of 2023?

Could you honestly stand up and say of the twentieth century that the "most great peace" "has come to pass"? I surely couldn't because I know what the signs of the Baha'i most great peace are - ie that *all* should become one in faith etc as told by Baha'u'llah.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

All this talk of saplings and fruition is notably absent from the writings and talks of Abdul-Baha in my view, he simply says the unity of nations will be securely established in the twentieth century.

How secure is a unity that involves the shedding of blood to this year of 2023?

Could you honestly stand up and say of the twentieth century that the "most great peace" "has come to pass"? I surely couldn't because I know what the signs of the Baha'i most great peace are - ie that *all* should become one in faith etc as told by Baha'u'llah.

People look for instant fulfillment of Prophecy, it never has worked that way and it never will. The issue is we are here for only a blink in time and we want to see it all unfold in that very short window of our life.

The bounty we have, is to live it as it unfolds, to help build the foundations.

Regards Tony.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Abdu'l-Baha identifies the most great peace with the twentieth century in one of his talks my opinion;

From the prison of ‘Akká He addressed the kings and rulers of the earth in lengthy letters, summoning them to international agreement and explicitly stating that the standard of the Most Great Peace would surely be upraised in the world.

This has come to pass. The powers of earth cannot withstand the privileges and bestowals which God has ordained for this great and glorious century.

Source: Bahá'í Reference Library - The Promulgation of Universal Peace, Pages 123-126

The Baha'i Faith built the Arc on Mount Carmel, that Baha'u'llah said would be soon built.

"Rejoice, for God hath in this Day established upon thee His throne, hath made thee the dawning-place of His signs and the dayspring of the evidences of His Revelation. …

Call out to Zion, O Carmel, and announce the joyful tidings: He that was hidden from mortal eyes is come! … Oh, how I long to announce unto every spot on the surface of the earth, and to carry to each one of its cities, the glad-tidings of this Revelation …

Ere long will God sail His Ark upon thee, and will manifest the people of Bahá who have been mentioned in the Book of Names..."

The Law now goes out from Zion, all Nations now flow up the Mountain of the Lord. The Baha'i Faith established in every Nation, the Universal House of Justice elected, Temples built around the world, all that in the 20th Century.

Thus, "The powers of earth cannot withstand the privileges and bestowals which God has ordained for this great and glorious century..."

Regards Tony

 

[danieldemol]

The Baha'i Faith built the Arc on Mount Carmel, that Baha'u'llah said would be soon built.

"Rejoice, for God hath in this Day established upon thee His throne, hath made thee the dawning-place of His signs and the dayspring of the evidences of His Revelation. …

Call out to Zion, O Carmel, and announce the joyful tidings: He that was hidden from mortal eyes is come! … Oh, how I long to announce unto every spot on the surface of the earth, and to carry to each one of its cities, the glad-tidings of this Revelation …

Ere long will God sail His Ark upon thee, and will manifest the people of Bahá who have been mentioned in the Book of Names..."

The Law now goes out from Zion, all Nations now flow up the Mountain of the Lord. The Baha'i Faith established in every Nation, the Universal House of Justice elected, Temples built around the world, all that in the 20th Century.

Thus, "The powers of earth cannot withstand the privileges and bestowals which God has ordained for this great and glorious century..."

Regards Tony

Except they did in my view, because political unity wasn't securely established in the twentieth century.

As for the rest of the "prophecy" you quoted it appears to me to be a diversionary tactic - *here look away from that failed prophecy to this self fulfilled one quick*

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Except they did in my view, because political unity wasn't securely established in the twentieth century.

As for the rest of the "prophecy" you quoted it appears to me to be a diversionary tactic - *here look away from that failed prophecy to this self fulfilled one quick*

You are allowed that view. I see unity is firmly established, but not yet realised.

There is no turning back, unity is the next stage in the evolution of humanity.

All the best, happy Kings Birthday PH tomorrow, Regards Tony

 

[Pete in Panama]

Except they did in my view, because political unity wasn't securely established in the twentieth century.

As for the rest of the "prophecy" you quoted it appears to me to be a diversionary tactic - *here look away from that failed prophecy to this self fulfilled one quick*

Good morning! Earlier you were saying...

Abdu'l-Baha identifies the most great peace with the twentieth century in one of his talks my opinion;

From the prison of ‘Akká He addressed the kings and rulers of the earth in lengthy letters, summoning them to international agreement and explicitly stating that the standard of the Most Great Peace would surely be upraised in the world.

This has come to pass. The powers of earth cannot withstand the privileges and bestowals which God has ordained for this great and glorious century.

Source: Bahá'í Reference Library - The Promulgation of Universal Peace, Pages 123-126

--and I was curious if what you meant was the closing hope that Abdul Baha expressed..

...I am most hopeful that in this century these lofty thoughts shall be conducive to human welfare. Let this century be the sun of previous centuries, the effulgences of which shall last forever, so that in times to come they shall glorify the twentieth century, saying 126 the twentieth century was the century of lights, the twentieth century was the century of life, the twentieth century was the century of international peace, the twentieth century was the century of divine bestowals, and the twentieth century has left traces which shall last forever.

If this is what you meant, can you see how many could feel that first, this was a hope and not a prophesy, and second that in comparison w/ the world of 1912 this is in fact exactly what has come to pass.

 

[danieldemol]

Good morning! Earlier you were saying...

--and I was curious if what you meant was the closing hope that Abdul Baha expressed..

...I am most hopeful that in this century these lofty thoughts shall be conducive to human welfare. Let this century be the sun of previous centuries, the effulgences of which shall last forever, so that in times to come they shall glorify the twentieth century, saying 126 the twentieth century was the century of lights, the twentieth century was the century of life, the twentieth century was the century of international peace, the twentieth century was the century of divine bestowals, and the twentieth century has left traces which shall last forever.

If this is what you meant, can you see how many could feel that first, this was a hope and not a prophesy, and second that in comparison w/ the world of 1912 this is in fact exactly what has come to pass.

Abdu'l-Baha has said (paraphrasing) both that the powers of the earth cannot withstand the most great peace coming to pass in the twentieth century *and* that he hopes it will happen.

In my view this is dodgy prophecy, because if it had come to pass Baha'i would have latched onto Abdu'l-Baha's words saying that the powers of the earth cannot stop it from coming to pass which is prophecy, but since it is failed they can fall back onto his expressed hope and say words to the effect of it was only his hope.

This shows one aspect of the dodgy nature of Baha'i prophecy whereby escape clauses are included in some of them. But saying that he hopes it will happen does not change that he has said the world is impotent to prevent it to my mind.

Consider this;
"The century has come when all religions shall be unified"

Source: Bahá'í Reference Library - The Promulgation of Universal Peace, Pages 361-370

In my view it shows that Abdul-Baha clearly saw the 20th Century as identified with Baha'u'llah's most great peace.

But can we looking back with 20/20 hindsight say that all religions were unified in the twentieth century?

I think it is best to ignore the hopes expressed, because they were expressed in addition to prophecy. Not in place of it as I understand it.

 

[danieldemol]

You are allowed that view. I see unity is firmly established, but not yet realised.

There is no turning back, unity is the next stage in the evolution of humanity.

All the best, happy Kings Birthday PH tomorrow, Regards Tony

Happy holiday Tony,
The king doesn't mean much to me personally but I appreciate the holiday wishes

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Abdu'l-Baha has said (paraphrasing) both that the powers of the earth cannot withstand the most great peace coming to pass in the twentieth century *and* that he hopes it will happen.

In my view this is dodgy prophecy, because if it had come to pass Baha'i would have latched onto Abdu'l-Baha's words saying that the powers of the earth cannot stop it from coming to pass which is prophecy, but since it is failed they can fall back onto his expressed hope and say words to the effect of it was only his hope.

This shows one aspect of the dodgy nature of Baha'i prophecy whereby escape clauses are included in some of them. But saying that he hopes it will happen does not change that he has said the world is impotent to prevent it to my mind.

Consider this;
"The century has come when all religions shall be unified"

Source: Bahá'í Reference Library - The Promulgation of Universal Peace, Pages 361-370

In my view it shows that Abdul-Baha clearly saw the 20th Century as identified with Baha'u'llah's most great peace.

But can we looking back with 20/20 hindsight say that all religions were unified in the twentieth century?

I think it is best to ignore the hopes expressed, because they were expressed in addition to prophecy. Not in place of it as I understand it.

Why do you think Baha'u'llah in Iqan first page wrote this. What was His purpose to narrate a story of Noah, and specifically this part of the story of Noah:

"He (Noah) several times promised victory to His companions and fixed the hour thereof. But when the hour struck, the divine promise was not fulfilled. This caused a few among the small number of His followers to turn away from Him, and to this testify the records of the best known books. These you must certainly have perused; if not, undoubtedly you will. ........And now, consider and reflect a moment.....What could have been the reason for such denial and avoidance on their part?
...what could have caused the nonfulfillment of the divine promise which led the seekers to reject that which they had accepted? Meditate profoundly, that the secret of things unseen may be revealed unto you, that you may inhale the sweetness of a spiritual and imperishable fragrance, and that you may acknowledge the truth that from time immemorial even unto eternity the Almighty hath tried, and will continue to try, His servants, so that light may be distinguished from darkness, truth from falsehood, right from wrong, guidance from error, happiness from misery, and roses from thorns. Even as He hath revealed: “Do men think when they say ‘We believe’ they shall be let alone and not be put to proof?”
Baha'u'llah, Iqan

So, Baha'u'llah relates the story of Noah, and asks a few Questions, as seen in above quote.
I believe being able to answer those questions is a key. I underlined the questions in the quote

 

[CG Didymus]

Please tell me what your beliefs are. You've been clear about a lot of things you don't believe but conflict/contention is not what I'm very enthusiastic about. My experience is chatting w/ folks is that once we step away from the partisan sectarian diatribes that we find we actually agree on virtually everything.

Please tell me what your beliefs are. Would you call yourself a Christian? Do you prefer a universe where a Deity is not mentioned but we rather focus on living virtuous and moral lives? My goal is first to establish common ground and if you tell me what u accept I can converse far more clearly.

I would like to believe in what's true. But everyone that says they know The Truth... tells me something different. So, what am I supposed to do but question them, all of them deeper.