Is Baha'u'llah true or false Prophet?

[CG Didymus]

How do you tell such people that this life is the Illusion!

Regards Tony

It seems real. How do you know it is an illusion? But then what is real? Some unseen spirit world?

 

[danieldemol]

Why do you think Baha'u'llah in Iqan first page wrote this. What was His purpose to narrate a story of Noah, and specifically this part of the story of Noah:

"He (Noah) several times promised victory to His companions and fixed the hour thereof. But when the hour struck, the divine promise was not fulfilled. This caused a few among the small number of His followers to turn away from Him, and to this testify the records of the best known books. These you must certainly have perused; if not, undoubtedly you will. ........And now, consider and reflect a moment........what could have caused the nonfulfillment of the divine promise which led the seekers to reject that which they had accepted? Meditate profoundly, that the secret of things unseen may be revealed unto you, that you may inhale the sweetness of a spiritual and imperishable fragrance, and that you may acknowledge the truth that from time immemorial even unto eternity the Almighty hath tried, and will continue to try, His servants, so that light may be distinguished from darkness, truth from falsehood, right from wrong, guidance from error, happiness from misery, and roses from thorns. Even as He hath revealed: “Do men think when they say ‘We believe’ they shall be let alone and not be put to proof?”
Baha'u'llah, Iqan

I think he wrote it to justify the failed prophecies of alleged prophets himself included.

If God lies to us to test us then that God is most probably malevolent in my view.

Thanks for asking.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I think he wrote it to justify the failed prophecies of alleged prophets himself included.

If God lies to us to test us then that God is most probably malevolent in my view.

Thanks for asking.

OK, what do you mean, by God "test us"?
What was the test in the case Baha'u'llah referring to here?

 

[CG Didymus]

Abdul Baha doesn't say either of those that I know of.

'The fifth candle is the unity of nations—a unity which in this century will be securely established, causing all the peoples of the world to regard themselves as citizens of one common fatherland.'

Source: Bahá'í Reference Library - Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Pages 29-32

Nope Abdul-Baha, sorry but all peoples of the world didn't regard themselves as citizens of one fatherland due to the so called "securely established" unity of nations. The UN had only 50 countries sign its declaration in 1945

Source: Preparatory Years: UN Charter History | United Nations

And some of it's members are still engaged in proxy warfare eg US and Russia. So much for that unity being securely established in the twentieth century in my view.

Things were looking good with the end of the Cold War. The Baha'is put out their Peace Plan in the late 80's. Part of the plan was that all nations would disarm. Will that ever happen? And if it doesn't happen, then what does that mean for the Baha'is? Will they keep saying, "Some day... It will happen... Some day."

 

[CG Didymus]

The cause begins when the seed of unity was planted, then the sapling is nurtured in the Idea of international peace, that sapling is established in the formation of the United Nations, its future is assured, but it still has a lot of growing to do before it fruits, it will fruit when tge governments give heed to all the requirements of the Lesser Peace.

Regards Tony

Like I just said in the previous post... Will all the nations ever disarm? But then the Baha'i plan allows them to maintain some weapons to maintain order within their own country? If they need them for that, why won't they need them to protect them from outside attacks? And like I keep saying, here in the U.S. we can't even get our own citizens to disarm.

 

[danieldemol]

OK, what do you mean, by God "test us"?
What was the test in the case Baha'u'llah referring to here?

The test Baha'u'llah was reffering to is essentially a gullibility test in my view.

If you are gullible enough to believe in a God that lies you are considered faithful to that God, if not then you are considered unfaithful to it.

But I would dare assert that a God which lies is not being faithful to you and can't be trusted, so to me to be faithful to such a God by throwing one's life away in service to its lies seems to be a risky gamble.

 

[CG Didymus]

All this talk of saplings and fruition is notably absent from the writings and talks of Abdul-Baha in my view, he simply says the unity of nations will be securely established in the twentieth century.

How secure is a unity that involves the shedding of blood to this year of 2023?

Could you honestly stand up and say of the twentieth century that the "most great peace" "has come to pass"? I surely couldn't because I know what the signs of the Baha'i most great peace are - ie that *all* should become one in faith etc as told by Baha'u'llah.

If this "sapling" is the Baha'i Faith, then that's why I've asked them about their own communities... Is the Baha'i Faith working? And not in some far off land, but right in their own cities and towns? I don't see how the NSA or LSA's can run any sizeable amount of people. In a city of a million, or even thousand Baha'is, how are 9 LSA members going to handle the problems that will come up? How will all those people even attend Feast?

 

[danieldemol]

Things were looking good with the end of the Cold War. The Baha'is put out their Peace Plan in the late 80's. Part of the plan was that all nations would disarm. Will that ever happen? And if it doesn't happen, then what does that mean for the Baha'is? Will they keep saying, "Some day... It will happen... Some day."

I believe that whether it happens or not Baha'i will keep saying someday, but that is different to what Abdul-Baha said in my view. He said it will happen in the twentieth century. So even if we manage to eventually disarm which is a big if, that still counts as a failed prophecy as I see it.

 

[danieldemol]

If this "sapling" is the Baha'i Faith, then that's why I've asked them about their own communities... Is the Baha'i Faith working? And not in some far off land, but right in their own cities and towns? I don't see how the NSA or LSA's can run any sizeable amount of people. In a city of a million, or even thousand Baha'is, how are 9 LSA members going to handle the problems that will come up? How will all those people even attend Feast?

Nine people would have to delegate a significant proportion of their responsibilities to other people much like a single president has to I would imagine.

They split the feasts into sub feasts to manage the crowd control problems already currently.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The test Baha'u'llah was reffering to is essentially a gullibility test in my view.

If you are gullible enough to believe in a God that lies you are considered faithful to that God, if not then you are considered unfaithful to it.

But I would dare assert that a God which lies is not being faithful to you and can't be trusted, so to me to be faithful to such a God by throwing one's life away in service to its lies seems to be a risky gamble.

Hmm, I wasn't seeing it that way.
To me, it means, those who have investigated and have recognized the Manifestation of God for good reasons, would consider nonfulfillment of promises, as a test of belief, and that non-fulfillment does not cause doubt in their heart.

 

[CG Didymus]

People look for instant fulfillment of Prophecy, it never has worked that way and it never will. The issue is we are here for only a blink in time and we want to see it all unfold in that very short window of our life.

The bounty we have, is to live it as it unfolds, to help build the foundations.

Regards Tony.

The vagueness of prophecies doesn't help. But add in that when it supposed does get fulfilled, it means that is only starting to get fulfilled. Like... "He will come and strike down all those that do evil... slowly... one at a time... and maybe never completely." Then of course the old, "It was symbolically fulfilled. He didn't literally come in the clouds. He came in the clouds of unbelief."

 

[CG Didymus]

The Law now goes out from Zion, all Nations now flow up the Mountain of the Lord.

And to Jews and Christians Zion and the Mountain of the Lord is referring to Jerusalem. Oh, and Mormons and probably some others have temples all over the world.

 

[danieldemol]

Hmm, I wasn't seeing it that way.
To me, it means, those who have investigated and have recognized the Manifestation of God for good reasons, would consider nonfulfillment of promises, as a test of belief, and that non-fulfillment does not cause doubt in their heart.

Well "good" is a subjective quality i suppose.

When a person says something which confirms one's biases some will see that as a good reason to believe in a lying God. Others won't.

 

[CG Didymus]

"He (Noah) several times promised victory to His companions and fixed the hour thereof. But when the hour struck, the divine promise was not fulfilled.

What was this promised victory? And when was it supposed to happen?

 

[CG Didymus]

Nine people would have to delegate a significant proportion of their responsibilities to other people much like a single president has to I would imagine.

They split the feasts into sub feasts to manage the crowd control problems already currently.

Yeah, how many times can they split it? And do they all still have one LSA representing them? But even in small communities of 9 to 19 Baha'is, I've seen problems between some of the members and their LSA's and local counselors. And some of those problems were that those on the LSA's and those counselors were getting too authoritative. Which is why I wonder if it will even work. Or... will it still have the problems like here in the U.S. with Democrats vs Republicans... Liberals vs. Conservatives?

 

[danieldemol]

Yeah, how many times can they split it? And do they all still have one LSA representing them? But even in small communities of 9 to 19 Baha'is, I've seen problems between some of the members and their LSA's and local counselors. And some of those problems were that those on the LSA's and those counselors were getting too authoritative. Which is why I wonder if it will even work. Or... will it still have the problems like here in the U.S. with Democrats vs Republicans... Liberals vs. Conservatives?

It seems to me that the Baha'i Universal House of Justice has a history of weeding out the liberals - consider the unenrolled against his own wishes Sen Mcglinn amongst others weeded out in various ways. But the problem is a growing number of modern religious folk are liberals, so by weeding out liberals the Baha'i are increasingly alienating themselves from the public in my view.

 

[Trailblazer]

But everyone that says they know The Truth... tells me something different. So, what am I supposed to do but question them, all of them deeper.

You can keep questioning the believers in the different religions, and you will only get their version of what is The Truth.
What you are supposed to do is not listen to other people but rather determine for yourself what is The Truth.

“The essence of these words is this: they that tread the path of faith, they that thirst for the wine of certitude, must cleanse themselves of all that is earthly—their ears from idle talk, their minds from vain imaginings, their hearts from worldly affections, their eyes from that which perisheth. They should put their trust in God, and, holding fast unto Him, follow in His way. Then will they be made worthy of the effulgent glories of the sun of divine knowledge and understanding, and become the recipients of a grace that is infinite and unseen, inasmuch as man can never hope to attain unto the knowledge of the All-Glorious, can never quaff from the stream of divine knowledge and wisdom, can never enter the abode of immortality, nor partake of the cup of divine nearness and favour, unless and until he ceases to regard the words and deeds of mortal men as a standard for the true understanding and recognition of God and His Prophets.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 3-4​

What it essentially says in bold italics at the end is that we will never discover the truth for ourselves if we use the words and deeds of other people as a standard by which to understand God and His Prophets. In other words, we cannot measure truth according to what other people say, think or do.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It seems real. How do you know it is an illusion? But then what is real? Some unseen spirit world?

I see God is Bountiful CG. God does not leave us without valid proof, but yes it is subjective, but that is the reality of this matrix.

I used to rubbish the old question of "Does a tree make a noise if it falls in the Forrest if there is no one to hear." I used to offer, of course it does.

But not long ago it hit me, no it does not make a noise as sound needs to be interpreted.

That is Faith CG, all the signs God gives us are the vibrating pulse of Faith, not heard until interpreted.

I dream CG, I fly without wings, I talk without a mouth, I walk without legs, I meet people when no one is around, all the while my conciousness is dead to this world.

The we have NDE, another gift, those experiences are external from the body which has just died, not concious in this matrix.

You get to see and hear what you think is of God. The guidance is simple. God is Love, God is Virtue, God is Justice and Mercy and God's Messengers are the Fruits and by their fruits you will know them.

They will be loving, they will be truthful, they will be trustworthy, they will be just, they will be merciful.

All the best CG, Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Like I just said in the previous post... Will all the nations ever disarm? But then the Baha'i plan allows them to maintain some weapons to maintain order within their own country? If they need them for that, why won't they need them to protect them from outside attacks? And like I keep saying, here in the U.S. we can't even get our own citizens to disarm.

I see they will disarm as advised by Baha'u'llah CG.

Australia started the process. I handed back my two SKK's Chinese assult rifles.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The vagueness of prophecies doesn't help. But add in that when it supposed does get fulfilled, it means that is only starting to get fulfilled. Like... "He will come and strike down all those that do evil... slowly... one at a time... and maybe never completely." Then of course the old, "It was symbolically fulfilled. He didn't literally come in the clouds. He came in the clouds of unbelief."

There is some really good prophesies CG, it is all about the interpretation of the vibrations of the falling tree.

Regards Tony