Is Baha'u'llah true or false Prophet?

[TransmutingSoul]

And to Jews and Christians Zion and the Mountain of the Lord is referring to Jerusalem. Oh, and Mormons and probably some others have temples all over the world.

That is their choice.

Regards Tony

 

[Pete in Panama]

I would like to believe in what's true. But everyone that says they know The Truth... tells me something different. So, what am I supposed to do but question them, all of them deeper.

The cracked tile syndrome.

This is an ingrained habit we all have that when we look at a tiled floor our eyes always focus on the one tile in the corner that's cracked and we all tend to ignore the hundreds of tiles that are whole and sound. Virtually all humans love the truth and most of what humans believe is true and are themes that we can all agree with. What happens when we converse w/ people is that inevitably we hit upon ideas that we'd prefer to express differently and we all tend to focus on the differences.

We must always keep in mind all the vast majority of good tiles.

Back to what we believe where we agree. A question: when u imagine that which is true, could we say that it folds nicely into also that which is also good and loving? The reason I ask is because for me that which is true, good, and loving is my ideal also.

 

[Pete in Panama]

Abdu'l-Baha has said (paraphrasing) both that the powers of the earth cannot withstand the most great peace coming to pass in the twentieth century,,,

Please recheck that quote, iirc there was a distinction between the lesser peace and the most great peace. This all is kind of a side issue to me as in the American culture we're not into this "most great" stuff like the rest of the world seems to enjoy. At the same time I do believe that while Abdul Baha hoped that the lesser peace would be established in the 20th century (which I personally see as having happened) he never said that Most Great Peace would come to pass at that time.

Consider this;
"The century has come when all religions shall be unified"

Source: Bahá'í Reference Library - The Promulgation of Universal Peace, Pages 361-370

In my view it shows that Abdul-Baha clearly saw the 20th Century as identified with Baha'u'llah's most great peace.

--and in my view it shows that the notes taken by Bijou Straun left a bit to be desired. Sure some could argue that the essence of religions have been shown to be one, that the majority of religions in the world are in harmony, that w/ 8 billion people in the world it's virtually impossible to have absolute complete harmony w/ everyone every minute --

--and on and on.

My take is that the statement is sloppy and a bit hard to take. Did Abdul Baha really say it? Personally I doubt it because it's not a consistent theme that I've seen. If you want to hang your hat on it to "prove" Abdul Baha was a moron (lol!!) --go right ahead and enjoy!

An understanding with which I'm far more secure is the fact that humankind raises forward an ever-advancing civilization that includes an ever increasing harmony of the various religions. This is what I see & I'd be grateful if you'd share your thoughts on that.

 

[danieldemol]

Please recheck that quote, iirc there was a distinction between the lesser peace and the most great peace. This all is kind of a side issue to me as in the American culture we're not into this "most great" stuff like the rest of the world seems to enjoy. At the same time I do believe that while Abdul Baha hoped that the lesser peace would be established in the 20th century (which I personally see as having happened) he never said that Most Great Peace would come to pass at that time.

From the prison of ‘Akká He addressed the kings and rulers of the earth in lengthy letters, summoning them to international agreement and explicitly stating that the standard of the Most Great Peace would surely be upraised in the world.

This has come to pass. The powers of earth cannot withstand the privileges and bestowals which God has ordained for this great and glorious century.

It appears to me you are ignoring the bold.

--and in my view it shows that the notes taken by Bijou Straun left a bit to be desired.

Its a consistent theme, but sure there is wiggle room to blame it on the note taker except that it is also consistent with Abdul-Baha's written statement that unity of nations would be securely established in the twentieth century.

Sure some could argue that the essence of religions have been shown to be one,

Irrelevant, that's not what he said

that the majority of religions in the world are in harmony,

irrelevant, he was saying the religions would be unified, not that the majority would be in harmony. In context of the most great peace Baha'u'llah said that all men would become one in faith.

that w/ 8 billion people in the world it's virtually impossible to have absolute complete harmony w/ everyone every minute --

--and on and on.

That is knocking over a strawman, there is vast difference between the religions being united under the banner of one religion and complete harmony of every individual everywhere.

My take is that the statement is sloppy and a bit hard to take. Did Abdul Baha really say it? Personally I doubt it because it's not a consistent theme that I've seen.

Read the writings, and talks of Abdul-Baha in full as opposed to reading decontextualised quotes fed to you by Baha'i propagandists and I believe you will come to see it.

If you want to hang your hat on it to "prove" Abdul Baha was a moron (lol!!) --go right ahead and enjoy!

That is a strawman, making predictions about the future which are partially or fully untrue does not make one a moron. Even gifted people can have delusions or untrue beliefs.

An understanding with which I'm far more secure is the fact that humankind raises forward an ever-advancing civilization that includes an ever increasing harmony of the various religions. This is what I see & I'd be grateful if you'd share your thoughts on that.

My thoughts are that secularisation is what is causing greater co-operation amongst religions as they are threatened by the existence of a competitor which is eroding their fan base, but that competition is only a temporary alliance with the conservatives amongst the Abrahamics each desiring that their religion should reign supreme. If secularism were to disappear tomorrow I believe the religions would go back to endeavouring to re-assert themselves.

 

[CG Didymus]

That is their choice.

Regards Tony

When the Bible talks about Zion and the Mountain of the Lord, where are the referring to? Mt. Sinai? Mt. Olympus? Mt Carmel?

 

[CG Didymus]

The cracked tile syndrome.

This is an ingrained habit we all have that when we look at a tiled floor our eyes always focus on the one tile in the corner that's cracked and we all tend to ignore the hundreds of tiles that are whole and sound.

And that's what you think I'm doing? Religion has more than one "cracked" tile. And, if a lot of tiles are cracked, it could be the foundation under them is faulty. Even Baha'is don't believe and agree with many foundational beliefs and doctrines of the other religions.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

When the Bible talks about Zion and the Mountain of the Lord, where are the referring to? Mt. Sinai? Mt. Olympus? Mt Carmel?

Obviously, the answer I would give is that it referred to Mt Carmel at the end of the ages.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Obviously, the answer I would give is that it referred to Mt Carmel at the end of the ages.

Regards Tony

Why can't there be prophecies that specifically refer to both? Some for Mt. Carmel and then others that refer to Zion/Jerusalem? Especially for Christians and Jews. I think that we can add the "City of David" also. And, for Christians, Jesus was to return to the same place where he had left, the Mt. of Olives, which is on the eastern edge of Jerusalem.

But for Baha'is, you have to get the prophecies of all the major religions in there. Where was the Mahdi supposed to come from and do? I'm sure you have that covered, but what about Buddha and Krishna? Why would either of them have any prophecies that linked them to Mt. Carmel or Jerusalem?

 

[Pete in Panama]

And that's what you think I'm doing? Religion has more than one "cracked" tile. And, if a lot of tiles are cracked, it could be the foundation under them is faulty. Even Baha'is don't believe and agree with many foundational beliefs and doctrines of the other religions.

We're getting off track here. You said--

I would like to believe in what's true...

So we can agree that truth exists and it's there for us to accept and believe.

...But everyone that says they know The Truth... tells me something different. So, what am I supposed to do but question them, all of them deeper.

Let's see what we can agree on here before we fight.

We can agree that there are some people in one religion that want to fight w/ people in other religions. For that matter, there are some folks in virtually all religions that want to fight w/ others in their same religion. There are even some folks who want to fight w/ others in their same political party, others want to fight coworkers in a science lab. A lot of folks want to fight.

At the same time most people prefer to work well w/ others in their science lab, their political party and in their religion. Are you aware that all the religions have a version of what many call the golden rule?.

 

[Pete in Panama]

What I'm working w/ is what you said...

Abdu'l-Baha has said (paraphrasing) both that the powers of the earth cannot withstand the most great peace coming to pass in the twentieth century *and* that he hopes it will happen.

--and when I ask you to check your reference you said...

From the prison of ‘Akká He addressed the kings and rulers of the earth in lengthy letters, summoning them to international agreement and explicitly stating that the standard of the Most Great Peace would surely be upraised in the world.

The impression I'm getting here is that we're confusing Abdul Baha (the son) with Baha'u'llah (the father). Two different people talking about very different things.

 

[danieldemol]

What I'm working w/ is what you said...

--and when I ask you to check your reference you said...

The impression I'm getting here is that we're confusing Abdul Baha (the son) with Baha'u'llah (the father). Two different people talking about very different things.

So who do you think Abdul-Baha was talking about when he said, "From the prison of ‘Akká He addressed the kings and rulers of the earth in lengthy letters, summoning them to international agreement and explicitly stating that the standard of the Most Great Peace would surely be upraised in the world."

Who is the "He" referred to in this passage according to your view?

 

[Pete in Panama]

So who do you think Abdul-Baha was talking about when he said, "From the prison of ‘Akká He addressed the kings and rulers of the earth in lengthy letters, summoning them to international agreement and explicitly stating that the standard of the Most Great Peace would surely be upraised in the world."

Who is the "He" referred to in this passage according to your view?

If you are saying that you understand that it was Abdul-Baha who addressed the kings'n'rulers then you are mistaken. That was Baha'u'llah. We can look that up together if u want.

 

[Muffled]

Is Baha'u'llah true or false Prophet?​

In my humble opinion Baha'u'llah is dumb and his followers are dumber, but not to single them out, my sentiments extend to all religious leaders and followers.

“There’s simply no polite way to tell people they’ve dedicated their lives to an illusion.”​

― Daniel Dennett

I believe he was an educated man and that would mean he wasn't dumb, however I don't believe he was receiving info from God and a philosopher is not right about everything all the time.

 

[Muffled]

Like he knows what is an illusion...
Can't get much more arrogant than that.

I believe when a person is shown the truth but still adheres to the falsehood because it is his religion, the truth of that statement is apparent.

 

[Pete in Panama]

I believe when a person is shown the truth but still adheres to the falsehood because it is his religion, the truth of that statement is apparent.

Maybe we can agree that you're dividing people up in two groups, the ones who're right and the others who are wrong.

My thinking is that there are other approaches, including the idea that both sides are right and folks are seeing different things from different viewpoints. We live in an interesting world w/ a lot going on and my take is that the only wrong choice is to chose to be on the side we'll call "right" and to put down anyone who's different. A better idea (imho) is that we need cooperation and interchange, and that if two people are fighting about religion then they're both wrong.

Can we work from there?

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe he was an educated man and that would mean he wasn't dumb, however I don't believe he was receiving info from God and a philosopher is not right about everything all the time.

Baha'ullah was not formally educated, nor was He a philosopher. He was a Messenger of God.

“O KING! I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing. And He bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven, and for this there befell Me what hath caused the tears of every man of understanding to flow. The learning current amongst men I studied not; their schools I entered not. Ask of the city wherein I dwelt, that thou mayest be well assured that I am not of them who speak falsely. This is but a leaf which the winds of the will of thy Lord, the Almighty, the All-Praised, have stirred. Can it be still when the tempestuous winds are blowing? Nay, by Him Who is the Lord of all Names and Attributes! They move it as they list. The evanescent is as nothing before Him Who is the Ever-Abiding. His all-compelling summons hath reached Me, and caused Me to speak His praise amidst all people. I was indeed as one dead when His behest was uttered. The hand of the will of thy Lord, the Compassionate, the Merciful, transformed Me.”
Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 57

 

[danieldemol]

If you are saying that you understand that it was Abdul-Baha who addressed the kings'n'rulers then you are mistaken. That was Baha'u'llah. We can look that up together if u want.

No, I'm saying the exact opposite.
I'm saying Abdul-Baha was talking about Baha'u'llah and the subject is the "Most Great Peace".

So Abdul-Baha was saying Baha'u'llah's vision of the "Most Great Peace" is come to pass in the twentieth century- which those familiar with Baha'u'llah's work know as involving all humans adopting one faith.

That is why when Abdul-Baha says all the religions will unite in the twentieth century and the "most great peace" will come in the twentieth century we can know from the context that he means all people adopting one faith and not just a brief moment of 50 countries having a handshake before they resume war in my view.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Why can't there be prophecies that specifically refer to both? Some for Mt. Carmel and then others that refer to Zion/Jerusalem? Especially for Christians and Jews. I think that we can add the "City of David" also. And, for Christians, Jesus was to return to the same place where he had left, the Mt. of Olives, which is on the eastern edge of Jerusalem.

But for Baha'is, you have to get the prophecies of all the major religions in there. Where was the Mahdi supposed to come from and do? I'm sure you have that covered, but what about Buddha and Krishna? Why would either of them have any prophecies that linked them to Mt. Carmel or Jerusalem?

The Prophecy covers many things CG. They will have more than one meaning, they will have numerous meanings, all of which only a Messenger can explain, as they are the fulfillment of those Prophecies.

That is why Baha'u'llah offered this

"He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.". Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah

Jesus offered the same thing, in a different way.

Matt. 7:15–20 “Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruits; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. “A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit; neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. “Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.”

I was lucky, I realised that is where I started from, I first realised Baha'u'llah was Trustworthy and Truthful, it was from that I could embrace what was given from His Pen.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No, I'm saying the exact opposite.
I'm saying Abdul-Baha was talking about Baha'u'llah and the subject is the "Most Great Peace".

So Abdul-Baha was saying Baha'u'llah's vision of the "Most Great Peace" is come to pass in the twentieth century- which those familiar with Baha'u'llah's work know as involving all humans adopting one faith.

That is why when Abdul-Baha says all the religions will unite in the twentieth century and the "most great peace" will come in the twentieth century we can know from the context that he means all people adopting one faith and not just a brief moment of 50 countries having a handshake before they resume war in my view.

The records you quoted, a talk given to an audience in the early 1900's finished like this.

"......I am most hopeful that in this century these lofty thoughts shall be conducive to human welfare. Let this century be the sun of previous centuries, the effulgences of which shall last forever, so that in times to come they shall glorify the twentieth century, saying the twentieth century was the century of lights, the twentieth century was the century of life, the twentieth century was the century of international peace, the twentieth century was the century of divine bestowals, and the twentieth century has left traces which shall last forever...."

One can only encourage people to embrace unity.

Baha'u'llah's offers this about our unity.

"The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established. This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass unheeded." ("Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh", p. 286)

I would encourage all to heed the councels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Abdu'l-Baha has said (paraphrasing) both that the powers of the earth cannot withstand the most great peace coming to pass in the twentieth century *and* that he hopes it will happen.

In my view this is dodgy prophecy, because if it had come to pass Baha'i would have latched onto Abdu'l-Baha's words saying that the powers of the earth cannot stop it from coming to pass which is prophecy, but since it is failed they can fall back onto his expressed hope and say words to the effect of it was only his hope.

This shows one aspect of the dodgy nature of Baha'i prophecy whereby escape clauses are included in some of them. But saying that he hopes it will happen does not change that he has said the world is impotent to prevent it to my mind.

Consider this;
"The century has come when all religions shall be unified"

Source: Bahá'í Reference Library - The Promulgation of Universal Peace, Pages 361-370

In my view it shows that Abdul-Baha clearly saw the 20th Century as identified with Baha'u'llah's most great peace.

But can we looking back with 20/20 hindsight say that all religions were unified in the twentieth century?

I think it is best to ignore the hopes expressed, because they were expressed in addition to prophecy. Not in place of it as I understand it.

It is not correct to say that the 20th Century was identified with Baha'u'llah's most great peace, Abdu'l-Baha said "The dispensation is at hand when all nations shall enjoy the blessings of international peace." This Dispensation is at least 1000 years, the epoch is 500,000 years.

Let's look at the end of the talk.

"Praise be to God! The medieval ages of darkness have passed away and this century of radiance has dawned, this century wherein the reality of things is becoming evident, wherein science is penetrating the mysteries of the universe, the oneness of the world of humanity is being established, and service to mankind is the paramount motive of all existence. Shall we remain steeped in our fanaticisms and cling to our prejudices? Is it fitting that we should still be bound and restricted by ancient fables and superstitions of the past, be handicapped by superannuated beliefs and the ignorances of dark ages, waging religious wars, fighting and shedding blood, shunning and anathematizing each other? Is this becoming? Is it not better for us to be loving and considerate toward each other? Is it not preferable to enjoy fellowship and unity, join in anthems of praise to the most high God and extol all His Prophets in the spirit of acceptance and true vision? Then, indeed, this world will become a paradise, and the promised Day of God will dawn. Then, according to the prophecy of Isaiah, the wolf and the lamb will drink from the same stream, the owl and the vulture will nest together in the same branches, and the lion and the calf pasture in the same meadow. What does this mean? It means that fierce and contending religions, hostile creeds and divergent beliefs will reconcile and associate, notwithstanding their former hatreds and antagonism. Through the liberalism of human attitude demanded in this radiant century they will blend together in perfect fellowship and love. This is the spirit and meaning of Isaiah’s words. There will never be a day when this prophecy will come to pass literally, for these animals by their natures cannot mingle and associate in kindness and love. Therefore, this prophecy symbolizes the unity and agreement of races, nations and peoples who will come together in attitudes of intelligence, illumination and spirituality........."

".... The age has dawned when human fellowship will become a reality...."

That is valid.

"The century has come when all religions shall be unified......."

That is indeed not full realised, arguably the seed was planted.

These remaining statements are yet to come.

"... The dispensation is at hand when all nations shall enjoy the blessings of international peace.

The cycle has arrived when racial prejudice will be abandoned by tribes and peoples of the world.

The epoch has begun wherein all native lands will be conjoined in one great human family.
For all mankind shall dwell in peace and security beneath the shelter of the great tabernacle of the one living God...."

Regards Tony