Is Baha'u'llah true or false Prophet?

[Truthseeker]

I do not think that Baha'is know any of this. None of this is specified in the Baha'i Writings.
I think it is all conjecture based upon individual Baha'i interpretations of the Baha'i Writings.
This is no different from Christians who read the Bible and conjecture about what the future will be like.

You mean that you think that maybe armies will will still exist when the unity of mankind is firmly established?

But the point is, stop arguing about this with @danieldemol. There's no point to it. We can talk about this separately somewhere else.

 

[Trailblazer]

That is post hoc rationalisation in my view. In a world where God magic is accepted as possible - eg the virgin birth, it is completely within the realm of magical possibilty for God to strike down the wolves of the earth as they appear.

I believe in the virgin birth as a miracle that happened, but that is not the same as God intervening and striking people down at every turn.
God has never intervened in the world that way so there is no reason to think God would do that in the future.

I don't interpret the Baha'i "most great peace" as leaving people defenceless, but since there is nothing in the Baha'i writings that unambiguously states either way that there will or won't be an international force remaining in the Baha'i most great peace that i'm aware of I decided to be magnanimous and accept @Truthseeker interpretation as one possible interpretation alongside it's inverse interpretation.

As for why they would be left defenceless, without God's constant magical intervention and without a human security force see post #554

Since there is nothing in the Baha'i writings that unambiguously states either way that there will or won't be an international force remaining in the Baha'i most great peace one interpretation as as good as any other. It makes sense to me that there will be some kind of international force remaining in the Baha'i most great peace.

 

[Truthseeker]

Since there is nothing in the Baha'i writings that unambiguously states either way that there will or won't be an international force remaining in the Baha'i most great peace one interpretation as as good as any other. It makes sense to me that there will be some kind of international force remaining in the Baha'i most great peace.

It makes one interpretation as good as another? Not necessarily.

 

[danieldemol]

I believe in the virgin birth as a miracle that happened, but that is not the same as God intervening and striking people down at every turn.
God has never intervened in the world that way so there is no reason to think God would do that in the future.

Since there is nothing in the Baha'i writings that unambiguously states either way that there will or won't be an international force remaining in the Baha'i most great peace one interpretation as as good as any other. It makes sense to me that there will be some kind of international force remaining in the Baha'i most great peace.

So in my view it logically follows from what you said here that the international force will require training for war, therefore Isaiah and Baha'u'llah are in contradiction and can't both be true- which the Baha'i writings require.

 

[Trailblazer]

I agree that we don't positively know what will happen in the future, however I see it as reasonable to project trends based on past performance

I do not see it as reasonable to project trends based on past performance, given Baha'u'llah said that there would be a new race of men in the future.

New Race of Men

In this age humanity has strayed far from the path of truth, and the call of Bahá’u’lláh to recognize Him as the viceregent of God on earth has fallen on deaf ears. But a careful study of His writings leads us to believe that His Revelation, being the culmination of past Revelations and one which has ushered in the Day of God Himself, will exert such a potent influence upon mankind as a whole that eventually all the peoples of the world will recognize His station of their own free will and embrace His cause of their own volition. And this in turn will bring about, in the distant future, the appearance of a new race of men whose noble character and spiritual virtues we, in this age, are unable to visualize.

Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh v 3, p. 3

 

[Truthseeker]

So in my view it logically follows from what you said here that the international force will require training for war, therefore Isaiah and Baha'u'llah are in contradiction and can't both be true- which the Baha'i writings require.

That a good argument come to think about it @Trailblazer for believing that there will no international armies. There can't be a contradiction between Isaiah and the Baha'i Writings since they are both the word of God!

 

[Trailblazer]

So in my view it logically follows from what you said here that the international force will require training for war, therefore Isaiah and Baha'u'llah are in contradiction and can't both be true- which the Baha'i writings require.

Isaiah 2:4

ESV He shall judge between the nations, and shall decide disputes for many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.

NIV He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore.

In that verse, "they" refers to the nations. That means that the individual nations will not train for war anymore, but it doesn't say that there won't be an international force that is trained for war.

 

[Trailblazer]

That a good argument come to think about it @Trailblazer for believing that there will no international armies.

I never said there won't be an international force.

There can't be a contradiction between Isaiah and the Baha'i Writings since they are both the word of God!

There is no contradiction.
#567

 

[danieldemol]

I do not see it as reasonable to project trends based on past performance, given Baha'u'llah said that there would be a new race of men in the future.

New Race of Men

In this age humanity has strayed far from the path of truth, and the call of Bahá’u’lláh to recognize Him as the viceregent of God on earth has fallen on deaf ears. But a careful study of His writings leads us to believe that His Revelation, being the culmination of past Revelations and one which has ushered in the Day of God Himself, will exert such a potent influence upon mankind as a whole that eventually all the peoples of the world will recognize His station of their own free will and embrace His cause of their own volition. And this in turn will bring about, in the distant future, the appearance of a new race of men whose noble character and spiritual virtues we, in this age, are unable to visualize.
Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh v 3, p. 3

Well for me I am happy to wait and see. If there are no psychopaths born in the future then we can safely disband armies when that day comes and is confirmed by the consensus of scientific opinion, but until that day comes it makes sense to continue having armies in my view.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

We are arguing about armies in the "Lesser Peace" which is unnecessary. There are armies that will train in the "Lesser Peace" though they may not fight. The "Most Great Peace" will not involve armies at all it appears to me, though there is no text saying that. If everybody accepts the oneness of mankind, the unity of mankind, there will be no reason for armies I reason. In the "Lesser Peace" the oneness of mankind will not embraced fully yet.

Anyways, I believe there is a long way to the Peace. For now the world is going through tribulations. There will be great wars. It is just starting.

 

[danieldemol]

Isaiah 2:4

ESV He shall judge between the nations, and shall decide disputes for many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.

NIV He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore.

In that verse, "they" refers to the nations. That means that the individual nations will not train for war anymore, but it doesn't say that there won't be an international force that is trained for war.

So what happens in the event of civil war? Do you think a planet ruled by humans will never make errors of judgement real or percieved which lead to war? I guess you do because you referred to a new race of men, but for me I am happy to wait for scientists to confirm that a new race of men has appeared that won't be prone to civil strife.

 

[Trailblazer]

You mean that you think that maybe armies will will still exist when the unity of mankind is firmly established?

I think there will be an international force.

But the point is, stop arguing about this with @danieldemol. There's no point to it. We can talk about this separately somewhere else.

I don't view this as arguing. Unless it becomes acrimonious, I view it as consultation.

Man must consult on all matters, whether major or minor, so that he may become cognizant of what is good. Consultation giveth him insight into things and enableth him to delve into questions which are unknown. The light of truth shineth from the faces of those who engage in consultation. Such consultation causeth the living waters to flow in the meadows of man’s reality, the rays of ancient glory to shine upon him, and the tree of his being to be adorned with wondrous fruit. The members who are consulting, however, should behave in the utmost love, harmony and sincerity towards each other. The principle of consultation is one of the most fundamental elements of the divine edifice. Even in their ordinary affairs the individual members of society should consult. BIC compilation on consultation

 

[Trailblazer]

Well for me I am happy to wait and see. If there are no psychopaths born in the future then we can safely disband armies when that day comes and is confirmed by the consensus of scientific opinion, but until that day comes it makes sense to continue having armies in my view.

I am also happy to wait and see although I won't live long enough to actually see.

Individual nations might not need armies but I think there will have to be an international police force to squash any oppressors.
As I recall, Baha'u'llah said something to the effect. Maybe I will look for that passage.

 

[Trailblazer]

So what happens in the event of civil war?

I think that is what the international police force will be for.

Do you think a planet ruled by humans will never make errors of judgement real or percieved which lead to war?

No, I do not think that humans will make no errors in judgment that could possibly lead to war, but if no nations had armies that could be used for fighting other nations, how could they declare war on other nations?

I guess you do because you referred to a new race of men, but for me I am happy to wait for scientists to confirm that a new race of men has appeared that won't be prone to civil strife.

I think things will be a lot different in the future when everyone has recognized Baha'u'llah. That is the new race of men.

“Warn and acquaint the people, O Servant, with the things We have sent down unto Thee, and let the fear of no one dismay Thee, and be Thou not of them that waver. The day is approaching when God will have exalted His Cause and magnified His testimony in the eyes of all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 248​

But I also think there will always be outliers who reject Baha'u'llah since all humans have free will.

 

[danieldemol]

I am also happy to wait and see although I won't live long enough to actually see.

Individual nations might not need armies but I think there will have to be an international police force to squash any oppressors.
As I recall, Baha'u'llah said something to the effect. Maybe I will look for that passage.

I'm doubtful that I would live long enough to see a new race of humans not prone to war either.
The reason why is because on a human scale misunderstandings happen which lead to good people going to war, and then we have the psychopaths who don't seem to need a pretext for going to war.

'Psychopathy is a neuropsychiatric disorder marked by deficient emotional responses, lack of empathy, and poor behavioral controls, commonly resulting in persistent antisocial deviance and criminal behavior. Accumulating research suggests that psychopathy follows a developmental trajectory with strong genetic influences, and which precipitates deleterious effects on widespread functional networks, particularly within paralimbic regions of the brain. While traditional therapeutic interventions commonly administered in prisons and forensic institutions have been notoriously ineffective at combating these outcomes, alternative strategies informed by an understanding of these specific neuropsychological obstacles to healthy development, and which target younger individuals with nascent symptoms of psychopathy are more promising. Here we review recent neuropsychiatric and neuroimaging literature that informs our understanding of the brain systems compromised in psychopathy, and apply these data to a broader understanding of its developmental course, ultimately promoting more proactive intervention strategies profiting from adaptive neuroplasticity in youth.'

Source: Psychopathy: Developmental Perspectives and their Implications for Treatment

So even if we had a means of avoiding misunderstandings, for a new race of men to appear random gene mutation would probably have to be stopped to prevent new psychopaths being born, although the article did seem to say there is hope for psychopaths who are detected early enough, so maybe if it becomes possible to screen all children for psychopathy in the future it will be treatable hopefully.

 

[danieldemol]

No, I do not think that humans will make no errors in judgment that could possibly lead to war, but if no nations had armies that could be used for fighting other nations, how could they declare war on other nations?

They could build their armies clandestinely or run terrorist operations, when you have the resources of a nation at your disposal a wider array of possibilities becomes available as I see it.

 

[CG Didymus]

Should any king take up arms against another, all should unitedly arise and prevent him. If this be done, the nations of the world will no longer require any armaments, except for the purpose of preserving the security of their realms and of maintaining internal order within their territories.

Without a military and armaments, how will the other nations rise up to put down this tyrannical king? But then it's not necessarily nations anymore that are rebelling. It's people that live within several nations. And this security force within a country, when will it ever be unnecessary? And when will it stop being used by the majority to keep minority groups in their place?

The "Most Great Peace" will not involve armies

How do we get from here to there? And how many people have to join together to go against some other people before you call it an army? Or you think they never will?

The reason for armies is to maintain that unity. As I pointed out in an unarmed world it would only take a relatively small army to run tyranny over the majority of the world's peoples.

So, what is needed is an international army to keep the peace? To make sure no nation invades another? And also, to make sure all nations follow the international rules?

As for why they would be left defenceless, without God's constant magical intervention and without a human security force

And in the Bible God did intervene. He parted the seas for the Hebrews, then closed them on the Egyptian army and drowned them. But do Baha'is take that literally? It seems some Baha'is don't have much confidence in God getting involved at all. Other than sending a messenger now and then.

You mean that you think that maybe armies will will still exist when the unity of mankind is firmly established?

How does it get "firmly" established? If Baha'is have laws against arsons, murderers and thieves, then they must expect some bad people even in the future. And then, who's going to enforce the Baha'i laws? A Baha'i police force?

There can't be a contradiction between Isaiah and the Baha'i Writings since they are both the word of God!

When has a contradiction between the Bible and the Baha'i writings ever been a problem for Baha'is? We all know the Baha'is solution is that the Bible must mean something else. Like how many times have I argued that the NT clearly says that Jesus came back to life. Doesn't matter. For Baha'is the NT is wrong and has been misinterpreted.

 

[Truthseeker]

Isaiah 2:4

ESV He shall judge between the nations, and shall decide disputes for many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.

NIV He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore.

In that verse, "they" refers to the nations. That means that the individual nations will not train for war anymore, but it doesn't say that there won't be an international force that is trained for war.

If there is an international force, that means they need it because the nation they are fighting has a army. Otherwise there is no need for an international force, don't you think?

But if you are right, and there is no army against the international force, either way the nations won't train for war. @danieldemol, if you disagree it doesn't matter. You are not going to make any headway in this. What you believe is your own affair.

 

[danieldemol]

You are not going to make any headway in this

So you claim, but i believe we don't know what is going in the minds of critical thinking third parties who read this, so if its all the same with you I'll continue to raise points of interest where I see them.

 

[Truthseeker]

So you claim, but i believe we don't know what is going in the minds of critical thinking third parties who read this, so if its all the same with you I'll continue to raise points of interest where I see them.

My experience is that such people have probably made up their mind anyway, probably against our position. We are a minority here in believing what we are saying. How much damage do you think you can do? I misapprehended your purpose. I thought you were on mission to save us from ourselves. You are just on a mission to make us look bad? I think less of you now than I was earlier today.