Is Baha'u'llah true or false Prophet?

[danieldemol]

My experience is that such people have probably made up their mind anyway, probably against our position. We are a minority here in believing what we are saying. How much damage do you think you can do? I misapprehended your purpose. I thought you were on mission to save us from ourselves. You are just on a mission to make us look bad? I think less of you now than I was earlier today.

I wish I could say it is unusual for you to assume bad faith and launch into a tirade of ad-hominem against people who critically review your beliefs.

 

[Trailblazer]

So even if we had a means of avoiding misunderstandings, for a new race of men to appear random gene mutation would probably have to be stopped to prevent new psychopaths being born, although the article did seem to say there is hope for psychopaths who are detected early enough, so maybe if it becomes possible to screen all children for psychopathy in the future it will be treatable hopefully.

Psychopaths are a very small percentage of the population, only about 1%. There could still be a new race of men from among the 99%.
Also, as the articles says, there is hope for psychopaths who are detected early enough, so maybe if it becomes possible to screen all children for psychopathy, hopefully, in the future it will be treatable. With continuing advancements in science and medicine, I think many mental and physical conditions that are not treatable now will be treatable in the future.

 

[Trailblazer]

They could build their armies clandestinely or run terrorist operations, when you have the resources of a nation at your disposal a wider array of possibilities becomes available as I see it.

Anything is possible, but I don't see that kind of thing happening by the time we get to where everyone 'truly believes' in God.
That has been prophesied to happen so I believe it will happen, eventually.

Jeremiah 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Isaiah 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

“The Day is approaching when God will render the hosts of Truth victorious, and He will purge the whole earth in such wise that within the compass of His knowledge not a single soul shall remain unless he truly believeth in God, worshippeth none other God but Him, boweth down by day and by night in His adoration, and is reckoned among such as are well assured.”
Selections From the Writings of the Báb, pp. 153-154

 

[Trailblazer]

And in the Bible God did intervene. He parted the seas for the Hebrews, then closed them on the Egyptian army and drowned them. But do Baha'is take that literally? It seems some Baha'is don't have much confidence in God getting involved at all. Other than sending a messenger now and then.

Spare me. Just because men wrote stories about how God did x y or z, that does not mean God actually did x y or z.
These are stories that men wrote, fallible men. God did not write these stories, and they were not even written by any prophets or messengers of God. Why should anyone believe they are true, unless they were indoctrinated into Judaism or Christianity?

Like how many times have I argued that the NT clearly says that Jesus came back to life. Doesn't matter. For Baha'is the NT is wrong and has been misinterpreted.

Why single out the Baha'is? It is not only the Baha'is who do not believe that Jesus rose from the dead. Not all Christians believe that and neither do atheists or people of other religions.

Nearly one in four Christians do not believe in the story of Jesus’ resurrection from the dead, a poll has claimed.​

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Fewer than one-in-three Christians in Britain believe “word-for-word” the Biblical story of Jesus rising from the dead, with another 41 per cent believing some sections should not be taken literally...​

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A quarter of Christians do not believe in the resurrection​

 

[Trailblazer]

If there is an international force, that means they need it because the nation they are fighting has a army. Otherwise there is no need for an international force, don't you think?

I do not see it that way. The international force would just be to keep the peace and squelch oppressors. That does not mean that all nations will have their own armies.

But if you are right, and there is no army against the international force, either way the nations won't train for war.

That is true, and is in keeping with what it says in Isaiah 2:4.

NIV He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore.

 

[Trailblazer]

My experience is that such people have probably made up their mind anyway, probably against our position. We are a minority here in believing what we are saying. How much damage do you think you can do? I misapprehended your purpose. I thought you were on mission to save us from ourselves. You are just on a mission to make us look bad? I think less of you now than I was earlier today.

With all due respect, I do not think it is necessarily either one of these motives you are impugning.
I mean @danieldemol is not necessarily on a mission to save Baha'is from themselves or on a mission to make us look bad.
Raising points of interest or even calling our beliefs into question does not equate to either one of those things.

 

[danieldemol]

The Day is approaching when God will render the hosts of Truth victorious, and He will purge the whole earth in such wise that within the compass of His knowledge not a single soul shall remain unless he truly believeth in God, worshippeth none other God but Him, boweth down by day and by night in His adoration, and is reckoned among such as are well assured.”
Selections From the Writings of the Báb, pp. 153-154

I see this as a possible contradiction in the Baha'i writings which probably doesn't concern you if you do not believe the Baha'i Guardian is infallible with respect to the Baha'i teachings. But to other Baha'i it may be problematic dependant on their acceptance of Shoghi Effendi's infallibility.

Shoghi Effendi states;
'For men of ill-will have been and will always continue to be in this world, unless mankind reaches a state of complete and absolute perfection -- a condition which is not only improbable but actually impossible to attain.'

Source: Bahá'í Reference Library - Directives from the Guardian, Page 42

So I dont really see how we can all become true believers in God and there still be "men of ill will"? Unless people can be *true believers* and still have faults like wanting to go to war I suppose.

 

[Truthseeker]

I do not see it that way. The international force would just be to keep the peace and squelch oppressors. That does not mean that all nations will have their own armies.

Not all nations you say. This means some nations have armies? If so that contradicts Isaiah. There will be no oppressors either in the Most Great Peace because oppressors can only arise by taking advantage of disunity. That's what I see in the world. Trump tried to become a dictator by taking advantage of disunity.

i don't understand how you see this! It is so illogical.

 

[Trailblazer]

I see this as a possible contradiction in the Baha'i writings which probably doesn't concern you if you do not believe the Baha'i Guardian is infallible with respect to the Baha'i teachings. But to other Baha'i it may be problematic dependant on their acceptance of Shoghi Effendi's infallibility.

Shoghi Effendi states;
'For men of ill-will have been and will always continue to be in this world, unless mankind reaches a state of complete and absolute perfection -- a condition which is not only improbable but actually impossible to attain.'

Source: Bahá'í Reference Library - Directives from the Guardian, Page 42

Thanks for pointing out that quote. I do not recall having read that. I do not believe that Shoghi Effendi is infallible, but I believe what he said in that quote.

So I dont really see how we can all become true believers in God and there still be "men of ill will"? Unless people can be *true believers* and still have faults like wanting to go to war I suppose.

I think people can be *true believers* and still have faults. True believers exist now and they have faults. Everyone has faults. I am not sure about wanting to go to war, but we don't know that anyone will want to go to war after everyone is a true believer.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I see this as a possible contradiction in the Baha'i writings which probably doesn't concern you if you do not believe the Baha'i Guardian is infallible with respect to the Baha'i teachings. But to other Baha'i it may be problematic dependant on their acceptance of Shoghi Effendi's infallibility.

Shoghi Effendi states;
'For men of ill-will have been and will always continue to be in this world, unless mankind reaches a state of complete and absolute perfection -- a condition which is not only improbable but actually impossible to attain.'

Source: Bahá'í Reference Library - Directives from the Guardian, Page 42

So I dont really see how we can all become true believers in God and there still be "men of ill will"? Unless people can be *true believers* and still have faults like wanting to go to war I suppose.

Let me give you my opinion.

There will come a time, that, most people of the world, probably 2 out of 3 will be killed in the catastrophe. At that time, only the believers will be saved, as it will be revealed to them, where on earth is safe to be, when catastrophe comes. That is when only believers remain, similar to story of Noah. I think it will be 420 years from now. The believers must go to Africa, as Shoghi Effendi told us.

 

[Trailblazer]

Not all nations you say. This means some nations have armies? If so that contradicts Isaiah.

No, that does not contradict Isaiah. The verse says they will not train for war.

NIV He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore.

It does not say they will not have armies. It is possible to have armies and not train for war.

There will be no oppressors either in the Most Great Peace because oppressors can only arise by taking advantage of disunity. That's what I see in the world. Trump tried to become a dictator by taking advantage of disunity.

It is true that oppressors can arise by taking advantage of disunity, but that is not the only reason they might arise. What was the disunity that was responsible for Putin's actions?

 

[Truthseeker]

There will come a time, that, most people of the world, probably 2 out of 3 will be killed in the catastrophe. At that time, only the believers will be saved, as it will be revealed to them, where on earth is safe to be, when catastrophe comes. That is when only believers remain, similar to story of Noah. I think it will be 420 years from now. The believers must go to Africa, as Shoghi Effendi told us.

You are not a Prophet, you know, and that makes no rational sense to me.

 

[Truthseeker]

It does not say they will not have armies. It is possible to have armies and not train for war.

No it isn't. Armies always train for war.

 

[Trailblazer]

Let me give you my opinion.

There will come a time, that, most people of the world, probably 2 out of 3 will be killed in the catastrophe. At that time, only the believers will be saved, as it will be revealed to them, where on earth is safe to be, when catastrophe comes. That is when only believers remain, similar to story of Noah. I think it will be 420 years from now. The believers must go to Africa, as Shoghi Effendi told us.

Can you tell me the source of this opinion you hold?

 

[Trailblazer]

No it isn't. Armies always train for war.

They always have but that doesn't mean they always will.

 

[Truthseeker]

t is true that oppressors can arise by taking advantage of disunity, but that is not the only reason they might arise. What was the disunity that was responsible for Putin's actions?

You've got me there. Russia has a history of strongmen, they practically worship such people on some level.

 

[Truthseeker]

They always have but that doesn't mean they always will.

How can the people in an army function properly without training?

 

[Trailblazer]

How can the people in an army function properly without training?

Of course they have to be trained. My point was that they don't necessarily have to be trained for war.

 

[Truthseeker]

Of course they have to be trained. My point was that they don't necessarily have to be trained for war.

Why not? Don't they have to ready just in case they are attacked?

 

[CG Didymus]

"The Baha’i writings further recommend that any judgment issued by the Court will be binding upon all parties to the case. Should a nation fail to abide by the Court’s decision, it can be enforced through the coercive powers of an International Executive and a standing army: To remedy this condition there must be universal peace."